celestar
Topic Author
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Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2001 11:37 am

A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Thu May 02, 2013 7:55 am

I run across a conversation with my neighbour who is currently an EVA AIR A321 captain after being transferred from MD90 fleet. He was sharing with me all the fun of flying the A321 and told me on one of his recent trip, back from HK to Taipei, he speed the plane through the airspace and made it to Taipei on record time!

I told him that my understanding of A321 was it was a slow plane. Slower than A320 or A319 and he told me that is not the case given it is equipped with GE engines, just like all EVA fleet. EVA loves GE and all their current planes are all GE engine equipped. It brought up a question that firstly, is A321 equipped with GE engine vs IAE engine really more powerful! Secondly, according to my neighbour, the GE engine is more expensive than the IAE engine, is that a true statement?
 
B-HOP
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Thu May 02, 2013 3:23 pm

Is he from Singapore? It might be he is light, got good flight level quite early, I thought with the congestion both sides, difference would be in terms of minutes
Live life to max!!!
 
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zeke
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Thu May 02, 2013 5:15 pm

Quoting celestar (Thread starter):
I told him that my understanding of A321 was it was a slow plane.

Normally a heavier aircraft for the same wing needs to fly faster to have the same lift at a given angle of attack (and drag).

Quoting celestar (Thread starter):
Slower than A320 or A319 and he told me that is not the case given it is equipped with GE engines, just like all EVA fleet.

Eva have CFM engines on their A321a, which are collaboration between Snecma and GE.
We are addicted to our thoughts. We cannot change anything if we cannot change our thinking – Santosh Kalwar
 
celestar
Topic Author
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Sat May 04, 2013 1:12 pm

Thanks Zeke, I always enjoyed your feedback.
So, with A321, EVA is introducing new engine that are not GE family?
Dear Zeke, are you inferring then that the A321 actually can fly faster, meaning the engines are more powerful?
What is your opinion between CFM vs IAE engine? This could be a stupid question to ask, but I am curious if a fair compare between procurement cost, thrust and engine reliability and fuel cost would be of interest to me!
BHOP, I am not sure about the exact details. I always think that his is always boastful about thing.
No, he is not from Singapore. He is an ex-Taiwan Air Force Mirage pilot - actually quite long ago by now, must be 8 to 9 years ago!
 
LH707330
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Sat May 04, 2013 6:49 pm

The CFM engines are as GE as you can get on the A320s with 50/50 GE and Snecma, whereas the IAE engine is built by a consortium of PW, RR, JAE, and MTU. The big difference between the two is that the V2500 has two high-pressure turbine stages, while the CFM56 has one. This means lower maintenance costs on the CFM at the expense of some turbine efficiency, meaning the CFM is generally better for shorter flights (more heat/cool cycles) while the V2500 is better for longer sectors (lower burn but more mx costs).
 
thegeek
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Sat May 04, 2013 10:28 pm

Quoting celestar (Thread starter):
Slower than A320 or A319 and he told me that is not the case given it is equipped with GE engines

Engine isn't a big factor in how fast a plane flies at cruise. Aero, particularly wing sweep, is the main factor AIUI. Perhaps he's talking about climb?
 
prebennorholm
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Sun May 05, 2013 1:04 am

Quoting celestar (Thread starter):
...is A321 equipped with GE engine vs IAE engine really more powerful!

A321 comes with five different engines:

CFM56-5B1 - 30,000 lbs
CFM56-5B2 - 31,000 lbs
CFM56-5B3 - 33,000 lbs
IAE V2530-A5 - 30,000 lbs
IAE V2533-A5 - 33,000 lbs

But engine power has very little with speed to do. At end of climb all airliners throttle down quite a bit, or they would overspeed.

Depending on your actual weight and cruise altitude you have a small or larger gap between economic cruise speed and max Mach number to play with. But with current oil prices most play with the former.

Since an A321 will usually be heavier than an A320 or A319, but they share the same wing (at least with flaps retracted), then economic cruise speed - everything else equal - will be slightly faster on an A321.

The only way to fly a sector at record speed is to choose a generous tailwind.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
celestar
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Sun May 05, 2013 7:40 am

thanks all, crystal cleared. Thanks for clearing up a lot of issues.
 
mandala499
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Tue May 07, 2013 11:26 am

How fast is fast? On HKG-TPE, well the time spent depends on the departing runway and the arriving runway, traffic load, planned cruise speed, and altitude... it depends on a myriad of factors.

The speeds between CFM & IAE engines are negligeable on the A320 family aircraft... but for a given cost index, the heavier you are usually means the faster your economic cruise speed is.

If you want to see the difference between the power of the CFM and the IAE engines is in the landing, pop the reversers open and go max reverse and you'll get the IAE's reversers biting more. On take off, well, about the same... since they can be on the same thrust.

CFM has cheaper maintenance over its lifetime, and slightly worse fuel burn comparing to the IAEs... the IAEs are cheap to maintain between engine overhauls, but each overhaul will come with a big price tag. Choosing which of the two is ideal for your fleet depends on the average route characteristics you want the airplane to fly, but generally, IAEs are more ideal for longer sectors than CFMs.

The IAEs are also more expensive... but you get reliability.

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Tue May 07, 2013 5:26 pm

Though not directly related.....but did the IAE V2500 series have issues with their HPT cracking which forced most operators to opt for the CFM56-5.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
mandala499
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Tue May 07, 2013 5:39 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):
but did the IAE V2500 series have issues with their HPT cracking which forced most operators to opt for the CFM56-5.

Was that the V2500-A1 series? Haven't heard that as an issue for the V2500-A5...
The CFM56-5As were fuel guzzlers... the -5Bs are bliss... the V2500-A5s are fuelburn heaven for the stingy...   
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Tue May 14, 2013 9:33 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 10):
The CFM56-5As were fuel guzzlers... the -5Bs are bliss

What was the improvement achieved.......what caused it.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
mandala499
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Tue May 14, 2013 9:58 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 11):
What was the improvement achieved.......what caused it.

There was an additional compressor stage, forgot if it was at the LPC or HPC... and several tweaks here and there.
The same improvement was introduced either on the -3B to -3C on the 737 classics or when it moved to -7 for the NGs... can't remember  

The improvements I'll have to dig my files... will get back on that one...
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
thegeek
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Wed May 15, 2013 12:59 am

CFM56-5B has an additional LPC stage. -5C has an additional LPT stage as well. -7 don't have these, I guess due to the slightly smaller fan. OTOH, so open to correction.
 
ferpe
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Sat May 18, 2013 7:03 am

Thanks for all the good data.

There is a web site which is the best available info base on gasturbine engines for military and civil use, you would find the number of compressor and turbine stages there.

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...q=cache:http://www.jet-engine.net/

The guy who made it (Nat Meier) must have been in the know, he has all the right parameters described and reliably so. I have found it surprisingly reliable and extremely detailed in terms of variants, usage and physical items. Most of the PR, BPR, TSFC data are also surprisingly good but there are some that are wrong, the CFM56-5C (A343) being one of them, te TSFC should be around 0.59. This site shall be complemented by the ICAO Emission databank for things like static pressure ratio, bypass ratio and static TSFC (you need to calculate it from fuel flow) and the TCDS for physical things of course.

The engine site has not been maintained by the originator, Nat Meier, since some years and It seems it is only available in the google cache now so copy the zip archives as it can soon be gone. The latest engines are not there (from the TXWB) but all before are there and in amazing detail, for the GEnx it is only the first 1B variants as for the T1000.

To take Nats data into excel do it via google calc as copying the http page and pasting in excel does not work well, it pastes into google calc fine and then you can take it to excel (some rows get a tab fault but that is easily visible and corrected). I have it all in excel and it is a tremendous reference.

Here the ICAO data, check the individual sheets to get all the info, most of the data is static sea level info, some GE and CFM static data is at 800ft (GEs Peebles Ohio test site)

http://easa.europa.eu/environment/edb/aircraft-engine-emissions.php
Non French in France
 
Viscount724
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RE: A321 Engine Choice: GE Vs IAE

Sat May 18, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting ferpe (Reply 14):
The engine site has not been maintained by the originator, Nat Meier, since some years and It seems it is only available in the google cache now so copy the zip archives as it can soon be gone.

If if the site is shut down you can still retrieve it from the Internet Archive site.
http://web.archive.org/web/20120606051455/http://www.jet-engine.net

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