propilot83
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Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Fri May 03, 2013 5:40 pm

Recently I was wondering why Boeing did not design the passenger windows of the Boeing 747-8i and -8F like that of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner? And what I mean by this is the fact that on the 747-8i and -8F I haven't noticed that you can just click a button to dim the windows from light to dark and so forth like that of the 787 Dreamliner. I thought it would be interesting if Boeing could re-design the windows of the Boeing 747-8i and -8F like that of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, where you can just press a button to dim the windows instead of having to pull down sleeves, this would definitely conserve fuel and reduce weight, but this crossed my mind, because the Boeing 747-8i and -8F engine chevrons are like that of the 787, and so does anyone know why Boeing has not designed the passenger windows of the 747-8i and -8F like that of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner?
 
roseflyer
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Fri May 03, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting propilot83 (Thread starter):
I thought it would be interesting if Boeing could re-design the windows of the Boeing 747-8i and -8F like that of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner, where you can just press a button to dim the windows instead of having to pull down sleeves, this would definitely conserve fuel and reduce weight, but this crossed my mind, because the Boeing 747-8i and -8F engine chevrons are like that of the 787, and so does anyone know why Boeing has not designed the passenger windows of the 747-8i and -8F like that of the Boeing 787 Dreamliner?

I'm not sure it would save weight. There's additional wiring required to get dimmable windows that counters the weight of the shade. I don't know if there is a weight savings or not on an existing airplane.

The real reason is cost. The aluminum structure of the 747 will not support windows that are the size of the 787 window. They did put in different windows that are more ovular. Replacing the window shades would require a significant amount of redesign work and analysis. That's a cost that has marginable impact. On a new design, it is easy to switch to a different design, but on an existing program, the cost has to be justified. While the cool factor is important, the costs are likely too high since there's no electrical wiring in that area on a 747. The 747-8 does have revised sidewalls, window outline and window reveals so it looks fresher.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Ronaldo747
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Fri May 03, 2013 6:53 pm

The 747-8i has the windows of the 777 which are already larger than the 744 windows.
 
propilot83
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Fri May 03, 2013 9:43 pm

Thanks for the input guys, appreciate it, learned a lot, thanks, peace out!
 
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747classic
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Sat May 04, 2013 6:01 am

Here is a size-comparison of the two types of passenger windows

777/747-8 and original 747-1/2/3/4 window comparison.
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Mon May 06, 2013 3:01 am

Not to mention, the window shades weigh virtually nothing. They're a cheaply made, thin piece of plastic, which is prone to breaking, and can be thrown across the maintenance hangar like a frisbee, with great results.

Don't ask me how I know that.
 
nomadd22
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Mon May 06, 2013 5:20 pm

You have to consider how many windows you're spreading your design and development investment over. There will probably be over 100,000 787 windows made. Not so many 748 windows.
Anon
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Mon May 06, 2013 6:03 pm

Quoting Roseflyer (Reply 1):
. The aluminum structure of the 747 will not support windows that are the size of the 787 window.

From what I know the size of the windows is dependent on the location of the stringer just above and below the window belt. Did they relocate those stringers? If they did not then they might not had the room to do more than they did.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
roseflyer
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Mon May 06, 2013 6:27 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 7):

From what I know the size of the windows is dependent on the location of the stringer just above and below the window belt. Did they relocate those stringers? If they did not then they might not had the room to do more than they did.

I don't think they spread the stringers or frames farther apart. That's a significant structural redesign.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Viscount724
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Tue May 07, 2013 12:50 am

[/quote]

Quoting Ronaldo747 (Reply 2):
The 747-8i has the windows of the 777 which are already larger than the 744 windows.

The 764 also uses the 777 windows. That was a fairly big design change (among others) for only 38 764s built as it also involved changes to the fuselage structure.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Tue May 07, 2013 5:28 pm

Quoting propilot83 (Thread starter):
can just click a button to dim the windows from light to dark

I heard these were not so reliable on the B787,ANA was reconsidering using the shades.

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
can be thrown across the maintenance hangar like a frisbee

Interesting...Hope it was with the u/s ones  
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
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flyingclrs727
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Wed May 08, 2013 12:57 am

I noticed the 747-8 aircraft doors still had the old fashioned windows the 747-100 inherited from the 707. I guess it was too expensive to modify and recertify them.
 
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kanban
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Wed May 08, 2013 3:54 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 7):
Did they relocate those stringers?

they may have redesigned the casting for a new alloy that will fit the existing space..
 
brons2
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Wed May 08, 2013 5:27 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 5):
and can be thrown across the maintenance hangar like a frisbee, with great results.

Don't ask me how I know that.

Dang you! Now I had to explain to my fiance why I was laughing 
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
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747classic
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Wed May 08, 2013 7:33 am

On the 747-8F the six upper deck windows are not modified and are still of the "old" 747 type.


Original uploaded by Jon Ostrower, see for other sizes : http://www.flickr.com/photos/flightb...348107426/in/set-72157623280980561


On the 747-8 Intercontinental all upperdeck and main deck windows are built according the new design.


Original uploaded by Jon Ostrower, see ffor other sizes : http://www.flickr.com/photos/flightb...845045453/in/set-72157626865197395

For all 747-8 series : the windows installed at the main entry doors are not modified.


Original uploaded by Jon Ostrower, for other sizes, see : http://www.flickr.com/photos/flightb...444286939/in/set-72157625921187877

On the picture below from the inside of the upper deck structure, it's clearly visible that the new windows are already a "tight fit".
Installation of larger 787 style windows would require a costly re-design of the basic aircraft structure (stringers, etc.) and re-certification.


Original uploaded by Jon Ostrower, for other sizes, see : http://www.flickr.com/photos/flightb...444250409/in/set-72157625921187877

[Edited 2013-05-08 01:06:22]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
AA737-823
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Sat May 11, 2013 7:57 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 10):
Interesting...Hope it was with the u/s ones

Meh. Either way, they install just fine. And playing frisbee with them helps to sling off the dust that accumulates while they're in stock.  
Quoting flyingclrs727 (Reply 11):
I noticed the 747-8 aircraft doors still had the old fashioned windows the 747-100 inherited from the 707. I guess it was too expensive to modify and recertify them.

Doors and door certification is a nightmare; you will almost never, ever, ever see any mods done to a door. Hence the 737-900 is still using the same L1 door as the 737-100. It's no longer certificable, due to excessive opening force required to operate it, but the existing design is grandfathered in.
Why pay money to recert a 748 door when you can just leave it as-is, with only a few people noticing the inconsistency? I think that's their line of thought there.

Quoting brons2 (Reply 13):
Dang you! Now I had to explain to my fiance why I was laughing 

I'm here all week!
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Boeing 747-8 Passenger Windows

Tue May 14, 2013 9:29 am

Quoting AA737-823 (Reply 15):
Meh. Either way, they install just fine. And playing frisbee with them helps to sling off the dust that accumulates while they're in stock

On a new pane, it would be unadvisable.....  
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