wardialer
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Strange Flight Plan Question

Sat May 25, 2013 3:29 pm

I would like to ask some pilot here on what does the following mean within this flight plan from DLH453?
"KU54O KD87U KU06W KP21A "

Had seen this before from this flight, but rarely but VERY rarely other overseas flights have this too on their flight plan.
But NOT all flights.


SEBBY7 DAG J100 NORRA KU54O KD87U KU06W KP21A 5330N 9000W 5630N 8000W 5900N 7000W RODBO MIBNO 6100N 6000W 6200N 5000W 6200N 4000W 6100N 3000W 6000N 2000W 5900N 1500W ERAKA UP58 ETSOM UP58 PELET UL7 LONAM GMH UL603 TESGA UZ729 BOMBI T104 ANORA ANORA1A

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/DLH453
 
wilco737
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Sat May 25, 2013 3:35 pm

Quoting wardialer (Thread starter):
KU54O KD87U KU06W KP21A

These are waypoints. I have seen them in Canada and in the US. I don't know exactly where they come from, but they are part of the flightplan as waypoints.

wilco737
  
 
wardialer
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Sat May 25, 2013 3:43 pm

Yeah, I would sure like to know what these mean. Hopefully someone here would give us a clue.
And are these entered via the GPS nav or the FMS?
 
wilco737
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Sat May 25, 2013 3:45 pm

Quoting wardialer (Reply 2):
And are these entered via the GPS nav or the FMS?

They can be entered like every other waypoint into the FMS. That's at least how I did is so far all the times. But if they have some kind of special meaning: don't know.

Can check later if something special is about them, when I am back in the cockpit.

wilco737
  
 
wilco737
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Sat May 25, 2013 3:47 pm

Actually I found an explanation for it:

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/lid/L_W.htm

At the beginning all the letters and numbers are explained.

wilco737
  
 
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glen
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Sat May 25, 2013 3:49 pm

These are NRS waypoints.

See this link for more info:

http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/lid/L_W.htm

Edit: Well, my answer was 1 minute too late...

[Edited 2013-05-25 08:51:03]
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wardialer
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Sat May 25, 2013 6:37 pm

WOW...Sort of complicated. I thought it would be an easier explaination, but the link pretty much explains it in detail.

Thanks.
 
Woodreau
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Sat May 25, 2013 11:49 pm

Here are better links

They've been in the FMS database since 2005, and they're published on the high altitude charts, but in general it doesn't seem to be used very much.

http://www.propilotmag.com/archives/2010/July%2010/A4_NRS_p1.html

http://128.173.204.63/courses/ace_plan2003/03_CH_5.PDF

http://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/fl...NRSStudyPhase1ReportFinal31110.pdf

The theory was that using NRS waypoints, you could pretty much fly direct from one major area like Los Angeles, to another area, like Chicago in between the pitch and catch waypoints. They derived the pitch and catch using the baseball anology.

A more detailed explanation starting at page 416 of the below pdf.
http://aeronav.faa.gov/pdfs/sc_rear_02MAY2013.pdf

[Edited 2013-05-25 16:58:55]
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wardialer
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Sun May 26, 2013 8:29 am

Why cant they just stick with the more standard waypoint entries like VOR and the 5 character fixes.
This seems to be more complex and requires more input and training.
I can see these in www.skyvector.com

[Edited 2013-05-26 01:39:31]
 
fxra
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Sun May 26, 2013 9:19 am

Back in the day when I first started getting into dispatch, the theory relayed to be was the High Altitude Waypoints (HARs) would allow, and mentioned ealier, greater flexibility for both flight planning and dynamic routing for weather or traffic. There's a system to the naming though I can't be bothered to learn it. In practice, "most" of us when building routes around weather tend to use VOR's to work with. It's easier and habit to know where SLN (Salina, KS) is on a map versus KK54C. PIlots also tend to be way more familiar. Controllers, from my experience, still deal with VORs or named Waypoints (like KIRKE for instance). They're more apt to give you a dct to BFF (or often a dme/radial off a VOR) instead of dct to KD72W for weather avoidance. Old habits die hard.

Another issue we run into is Database memory space. ONce you start throwing in all the info for new RNAV SIDs and STARs you start running out of memory quickly (keep in mind I think we're still using Commodore 64 memory discs).
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Starlionblue
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Sun May 26, 2013 11:25 am

Quoting wardialer (Reply 8):

Why cant they just stick with the more standard waypoint entries like VOR and the 5 character fixes.
This seems to be more complex and requires more input and training.

NRS is more granular, meaning more direct routings are possible.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Alias1024
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Sun May 26, 2013 4:14 pm

We've been using these waypoints for a few years at my airline and seem to gradually be using them more and more. Really no different for us, just type in the waypoint the same as we would for any other waypoint and that's where the airplane goes.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
113312
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RE: Strange Flight Plan Question

Tue May 28, 2013 10:51 pm

These coded waypoints allow a flight route to be defined that is more direct yet off regular airways. By keeping flights, capable of this navigation off of airways that are defined by ground based navaids, capacity for traffic along a general direction can be increased. These waypoints are contained within a database that is loaded into a FMS or INS system. They can be found on contemporary enroute IFR charts. As a general rule, you will find that these waypoints are at the intersection of whole and half units of lattitude and longitude such as N35 00 00/ W97 30 00.

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