lexkid12300
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A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Mon May 27, 2013 5:30 am

Hi all,

I'd like to ask everyone to participate in a "would you rather" conversation regarding which aircraft you'd want to be flying in under a certain circumstance...

Here is the circumstance (in modern day):

You're aircraft is at cruise altitude over land, and the aircraft loses ALL engine power, ALL electrics, ALL hydraulics, and all battery power. Would you rather be in a:

1. 1965-1979 Douglas DC-9
2. 1963-1984 Boeing 727
3. Douglas DC-10
4. Boeing 747-400

Which would you rather be flying in, and why? Looking forward to your responses!!
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Mon May 27, 2013 6:15 am

The DC-9. It has servo tabs on the controls.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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CrimsonNL
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Mon May 27, 2013 6:17 am

I guess the DC-9. It's the smallest so I think it would take the least effort to fly without hydraulics.

Martijn
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NWADC9
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Mon May 27, 2013 8:16 pm

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
ALL engine power

Something with a high aspect ratio

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
ALL electrics

Something basic, maybe even built before electronic toys became prevalent in aviation

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
ALL hydraulics

Something light and not heavily dependent on hydraulics

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
all battery power

Same as electrics

Hands down, the DC-9.
Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
 
bueb0g
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Mon May 27, 2013 10:33 pm

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
1. 1965-1979 Douglas DC-9

Can be flown without hydraulics and is relatively small so has to be the -9.

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
3. Douglas DC-10

With no elec, engines or hyd you'd have no control at all.

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
4. Boeing 747-400

Same here.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
flyingturtle
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 9:01 am

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):

DC-9 and the 727 are out, because they have - AFAIK - a worse glide ratio.

After reading the book about the Turkish Airlines 981 flight, I'm biased towards the 747.


Just my rapidly devaluating 2 cents. 


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
mmo
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 9:11 am

Logic would dictate either the DC-9 or 727.

For the DC-10/744, without wind milling hydraulics, there is no flight control. With the 727/DC-9 there is manual reversion so, you would have some control as long as you kept your speed up.

The DC-9/727 don't really require any thing else to keep it in the air. You would have a great deal of control available. I can remember doing manual reversion on the 727 in the Sim. Not fun, but certainly very controllable.

My vote would be either the DC-9 or 727. Most likely the 727 as I have more of a feel for that aircraft.
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bueb0g
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 11:37 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 5):
DC-9 and the 727 are out, because they have - AFAIK - a worse glide ratio.

After reading the book about the Turkish Airlines 981 flight, I'm biased towards the 747.

The glide ratio is irrelevant if you have no flight controls...
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
flyingturtle
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 11:51 am

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 7):

I think he specified no hydraulics, no electrics, but no loss of control.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 11:52 am

No Hydraulics.....No Electrics then.....Go for the DC9.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
flyingturtle
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 12:13 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 9):

...so the DC-9 is the only one with manual reversion?


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
yeelep
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 12:49 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 10):

The 727 has manual reversion for the ailerons and elevator but the rudder is only hydraulically powered. The DC9 has unpowered ailerons, elevator and manual reversion on the rudder. The DC-10 and 747 are uncontrollable if all power sources are lost.
 
boeingfixer
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 8):
I think he specified no hydraulics, no electrics, but no loss of control.


David

Actually the OP did not list no loss of control in the post. Taking the scenario that the OP posted, there really are only 2 choices. First would be the DC-9 and second the B727. Both the DC-10 and B744 would not be controllable in that situation.

Cheers,

John
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tb727
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 3:40 pm

It would be the order you put them in for me. I fly the 727 once a year in manual reversion in the sim. It's like arm wrestling a chimp and is sluggish, like a wet sponge. Your scenario is a nightmare.
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26point2
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 4:10 pm

DC-10 the only one listed with a RAT, no? DC-10 it is.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 4:47 pm

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 14):
DC-10 the only one listed with a RAT, no? DC-10 it is.

Can't use the RAT since you have no electrics and hydraulics for it to power. On a side note, the 747 uses the windmilling engines in lieu of RAT (except the -8 which has one).
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 5:08 pm

Quoting bueb0g (Reply 7):
After reading the book about the Turkish Airlines 981 flight, I'm biased towards the 747.

The glide ratio is irrelevant if you have no flight controls...

You would have flight controls on the 747-400. All four engines would be windmilling, which would power the hydraulics. All Boeing airplanes are designed to have flight controls with all engines out, and on battery power only.

Quoting 26point2 (Reply 14):
DC-10 the only one listed with a RAT, no? DC-10 it is.

747-400 has the equivalent function of a RAT with all four engines windmilling. Personally I'd want to be in a 787 or 777. Each supposedly have amazing glide ratios.
 
mmo
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 5:33 pm

Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
You're aircraft is at cruise altitude over land, and the aircraft loses ALL engine power, ALL electrics, ALL hydraulics, and all battery power. Would you rather be in a:

Again, as from the specifications set out by the OP, there is no hydraulics....therefore, no wind-milling hydraulics, thus no flight controls.

To be honest, it's not a very fair question, but given the criteria the 727/DC-9 are really the only options. IMHO
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BoeingGuy
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 5:37 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 17):
Quoting lexkid12300 (Thread starter):
You're aircraft is at cruise altitude over land, and the aircraft loses ALL engine power, ALL electrics, ALL hydraulics, and all battery power. Would you rather be in a:

Again, as from the specifications set out by the OP, there is no hydraulics....therefore, no wind-milling hydraulics, thus no flight controls.

So that is really an unrealistic question. All Boeing airplanes (and I would assume other manufacturers also) have a Battery that will give at least 30 minutes of electrical power to get you to the nearest airport. There really isn't any way to lose all Hydraulics either.

Obviously you wouldn't want a failure mode to cause the loss of all hydraulics or electrical power and airplanes are designed accordingly.
 
flyingturtle
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 6:39 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 18):
There really isn't any way to lose all Hydraulics either.

Yet there is. In the case of the DC-9 and 727, ironically. A catastrophic engine failure can take out all the remaining engines (has not happend to date, AFAIK), and all hydraulic systems (United 232).

Question: Since when are A/C routinely equipped with hydraulic fuse plugs?

In the DC-10, you would at least have differential thrust on the two remaining engines, while the hydraulic lines are severed in the tail. So the 747 must be the safest aircraft of that list, but I'm digressing from the route planned by the OP. 


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Tue May 28, 2013 6:54 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 19):
Yet there is. In the case of the DC-9 and 727, ironically. A catastrophic engine failure can take out all the remaining engines (has not happend to date, AFAIK), and all hydraulic systems (United 232).

Current Boeing airplanes have the Hydraulic systems physically separated and have check valves. So in theory UA 232 and AA 191 wouldn't happen.

That's the point. The airplanes are designed so that loss of all Hydraulic systems by any means is calculated to be less than 1x10-9. Doesn't matter if all engines fail. You have RAT and/or windmilling engines supplying Hydraulic pressure.
 
lexkid12300
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Wed May 29, 2013 5:02 am

I've really enjoyed everyone's comments, keep them coming!

My personal pick would be the DC9, for reasons mentioned above. The ailerons, elevators, and rudder can all be operated with no electric, engine or hydraulic power. In fact, i'm doubtful a crew would notice any difference in their controls for the ailerons and elevators with loss of all power, since they're controlled by manual cables only (to the tabs). I just wouldn't want to be in a stall, as the hydraulic "down" pressure for the elevators would be inoperative. And i definitely wouldn't look forward to the landing as there would be no nose-gear steering, right?
 
NWADC9
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Wed May 29, 2013 5:45 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 5):
DC-9 and the 727 are out, because they have - AFAIK - a worse glide ratio.

Some numbers I found...

Boeing 747-100 17.7
Douglas DC-10 17.7
Douglas DC-9 16.5
Boeing 727-200 16.4

They're about the same.
Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
 
Max Q
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Wed May 29, 2013 5:58 am

Unrealistic scenario but the DC9 would be my choice.


B727 reverts to manual reversion but it's a real pig to fly.


In the -9 you're always in manual reversion !


So no big deal.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Wed May 29, 2013 6:19 am

Quoting lexkid12300 (Reply 21):
And i definitely wouldn't look forward to the landing as there would be no nose-gear steering, right?

If this were a real scenario that would be the least of your worries. In any case you could control the plane down to 60-80 knots with the rudder and once below that you could brake to a stop well before any significant deviation from centerline.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
bueb0g
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Wed May 29, 2013 7:00 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
Current Boeing airplanes have the Hydraulic systems physically separated and have check valves. So in theory UA 232 and AA 191 wouldn't happen.

That's what they thought before UA232... Things you didn't expect can always happen, and it certainly is still possible, if highly improbable that a Boeing could loose all hydraulics.
Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
 
Mir
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Wed May 29, 2013 7:03 am

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 16):
Personally I'd want to be in a 787 or 777. Each supposedly have amazing glide ratios.

But without any electrics, either of those planes will be completely crippled and uncontrollable.

-Mir
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flyingturtle
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Wed May 29, 2013 8:58 am

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 22):

Thank you for shattering my false beliefs.  


Cheers, David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Wed May 29, 2013 2:37 pm

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 16):
Personally I'd want to be in a 787 or 777. Each supposedly have amazing glide ratios.

But without any electrics, either of those planes will be completely crippled and uncontrollable.

That's not my point. It's pretty much impossible for either airplane to lose it's electrics. Besides standby batteries, each airplane has electrical power generated from the RAT. The 777 and 787 have so much electrical redundancy it isn't funny.

Sure what you say is true. It just would never actually happen.
 
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longhauler
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Wed May 29, 2013 2:50 pm

Quoting mmo (Reply 17):
To be honest, it's not a very fair question, but given the criteria the 727/DC-9 are really the only options. IMHO

I agree, if you are going to say NO hydraulics, then NO hydraulics it is. Doesn't matter if you have something powering them, they aren't there!

Quoting tb727 (Reply 13):
It would be the order you put them in for me. I fly the 727 once a year in manual reversion in the sim. It's like arm wrestling a chimp and is sluggish, like a wet sponge. Your scenario is a nightmare.

I did the same thing yearly in the B737-200, it wasn't pretty, and a real handful. But ... it WAS controllable!

Quoting NWADC9 (Reply 22):
Some numbers I found...

Boeing 747-100 17.7
Douglas DC-10 17.7
Douglas DC-9 16.5
Boeing 727-200 16.4

They're about the same.

This makes sense. An airplane with a poor glide ratio would require more power in cruise than one with a good one. Jet transport aircraft are designed to be very efficient when cruising, so it really isn't a surprise that the glide ratios are about the same.
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Jetlagged
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RE: A "Would You Rather" Question For Everyone...

Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:43 pm

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 28):
That's not my point. It's pretty much impossible for either airplane to lose it's electrics. Besides standby batteries, each airplane has electrical power generated from the RAT. The 777 and 787 have so much electrical redundancy it isn't funny.

Maybe, but it's a hypothetical question so you've lost electrics and hydraulics - somehow. Anyway, they weren't on the list of options. Losing the battery in all the aircraft listed is equally unlikely, but that is the condition specified.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 20):
Current Boeing airplanes have the Hydraulic systems physically separated and have check valves. So in theory UA 232 and AA 191 wouldn't happen.

You are forgetting the JAL 747 that lost all hydraulics when the aft pressure bulkhead blew the fin off. It can happen in practice, even to a Boeing. The tail section is the vulnerable area because all the separate redundant hydraulic systems have to be routed through that one small zone.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 23):
B727 reverts to manual reversion but it's a real pig to fly.


In the -9 you're always in manual reversion !

Max Q has summed up the situation perfectly, the DC-9 is the clear winner in a no backup scenario. I have to say that even with all the equipment functional of that list I'd still choose the Diesel 9, if I was given the choice for a personal jet.  
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