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flylku
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Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Sat Jun 29, 2013 4:18 am

How long does it take to fuel an aircraft from empty to full? I am interested in the 744 but let's not limit the discussion to only the 744. I know there are many factors so let's say best case.
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jetmech
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RE: Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Sat Jun 29, 2013 5:15 am

Quoting flylku (Thread starter):

According to page 7 of the following PDF;

http://www.boeing.com/assets/pdf/com...ercial/airports/acaps/7474sec5.pdf

It takes 53 minutes to load 55,800 US gallons with two fuel trucks operating at 35 psi delivery pressure. The total fuel capacity of the 744 is 57,285 US gallons, so fuelling from empty to full should take about 54.4 minutes with two trucks.

Regards, JetMech
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Starlionblue
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RE: Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:07 am

It should be noted in context that fueling will take less time in the real world since airliners are rarely filled to capacity:
- Filling up completely this would put most airliners above MTOW with full payload
- Airliners typically don't need the full capacity and carrying extra fuel uses more fuel.
- The aircraft will always land with at least the final reserve, typically all or part of the contingency fuel and in the vast majority of cases the alternate fuel. So it is not empty when it starts fueling.
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CosmicCruiser
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RE: Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:44 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
less time in the real world since airliners are rarely filled to capacity:

and they're rarely empty.
 
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flylku
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RE: Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:41 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
It should be noted in context that fueling will take less time in the real world since airliners are rarely filled to capacity:

Understood. I am on the SYD SFO run so it will be fairly close to a full fuel load. Maybe 85 percent.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:57 am

Quoting flylku (Reply 4):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
It should be noted in context that fueling will take less time in the real world since airliners are rarely filled to capacity:

Understood. I am on the SYD SFO run so it will be fairly close to a full fuel load. Maybe 85 percent.

Something like that. However contingency, final reserve and alternate fuel tend to add up to quite a big number on long over-ocean flights and on your typical flights they will be untouched except for some contingency.

Would be fun if someone posted some representative figures.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
Viscount724
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RE: Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:25 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
Quoting flylku (Reply 4):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 2):
It should be noted in context that fueling will take less time in the real world since airliners are rarely filled to capacity:

Understood. I am on the SYD SFO run so it will be fairly close to a full fuel load. Maybe 85 percent.

Something like that. However contingency, final reserve and alternate fuel tend to add up to quite a big number on long over-ocean flights and on your typical flights they will be untouched except for some contingency.

Would be fun if someone posted some representative figures.

Recent article on AC's 777-200LR operation SYD-YVR gave an example of one flight that left the gate in SYD with 120,800 kg of fuel. Fuel burn from takeoff to landing was 108,600 kg. 77L maximum usable fuel per Boeing website is 145,538 kg (same as the 77W), so that flight's tanks were 83% full at SYD.
 
n92r03
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RE: Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:50 pm

Good questions...There is some more info from a similar discussion here:

How Much Fuel Is "Left Over"? (by n92r03 Jun 20 2012 in Tech Ops)
 
surfpunk
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RE: Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:49 pm

When I worked ramp at MSP back in the 80s-90s, flights 7 and 19 to NRT would frequently take 40,000-45,000 US gallons during a load. That's what we loaded at the gate (does not include fuel already onboard). After they moved U.S. customs to its current location in Concourse G from the old humphrey Terminal (now Terminal 2), we would have 3-4 hours of gate time to get those flights fueled, so we usually used a single truck. It would take about 75 minutes to turn that flight with one truck (including hookup, breakdown, and fuel load time). A single truck at 35 PSI would load about 650-700 gallons per minute from a single hydrant cart. If we needed to bust it out quickly, we'd hook up a second truck on the other side, and combined fuel flow would be around 1100 gpm (the fuel system of the 744 can't fully accommodate the max flow rate of two trucks at once, which is why you didn't get a doubling of the flow rate from the second truck).

When NW operated flight 97 non-stop to HKG, it would take closer to 48000-50000 gallons, but that only added a few minutes to turn time.

Hope this answers some of your questions.
 
Woodreau
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RE: Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:52 am

Since we're not limiting it to just a 744, how about a ship?  

14 hours to go from virtually empty (less than 5%) to 95% / 1.8 million gallons of DFM and JP-5 using two double-hose STREAM fueling rigs after leaving drydock with only just enough fuel to hook up with the replenishment tanker.
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FlyDeltaJets
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RE: Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:53 pm

When I worked for Evergreen, fuelers would hook up to CX's 346 for JFK - HKG and start fueling from both trucks at arrival and 1 truck would break off about an hour into fueling and competion would finish around 20 min to departure time on a roughly 2.5 hour turn.
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futureatp
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RE: Time From Empty To Full Fuel

Wed Jul 10, 2013 6:51 pm

It is a slow day at the office so I am going to add to this. Hope I do not get overly complicated...


I used to do refueling for the vendor at PHX.

The numbers below on the narrow body aircraft i list below are at 40psi. And in PHX, 95% of the time the airlines show up with only an hour to hour and half of fuel remaining.

757s built up to 1992 or 93 take fuel into the wings around 185-190gpm. That means if your going wings full(which almost all 757 flights that leave PHX do) on that airplane, you are going to be on it for about a half hour. Newer 757s take fuel into the wings about 300gpm. No mechanic I have talked to can explain this to me as to why that is. The center on a 757 takes fuel a lot faster as it has two valves leading into it. Out of PHX, unless its going to Hawaii, its not going to ever need much in it anyway. *UPS has modified their older 757s to refuel faster.

Airbus A318-320 your looking at about 220gpm into the mains, 260gpm with the center open as the manifold restricts more than the individual valves. I have topped off several buses before. Takes about 35 min. However, some airlines require that their buses be fueled with the computer controlling it. On the older models, the refuel computer wont put fuel, or only a limited amount of fuel, into the center until the wings are full. Got into a head butting match over a certain airline about that. They wanted me to do it their way and they ended up taking the delay. They needed topped off as WX was present in their east coast destination. Took about 45min. A321 takes fuel faster. Over 300gpm. It only has one fuel cell in each wing(only airbus I know of like that) and is plumbed bigger. The the 320 and smaller craft, the outer cell drains into the wings after landing. And refueling the wings, the fuel goes through the outer cell into a spill pipe to the inner.

737NGs, all three tanks open, take fuel at around 450gpm all three open. 260gpm into the center and 280gpm into both wings. I know that comes up to 540gpm but we do have a manifold restriction. When the fuel rig is properly calibrated and with at least a 450gpm capacity, I never was on a 737 longer than 17min. And yes I have topped them off.

737300-500s take fuel about 300gpm with all three open. 25min to top one off. (Alaska was tankering fuel in summer of 08 during fuel price spike)

Wide body aircraft.... Well, before I get to them I must first talk about the equipment that I am familiar with.

First I have never seen a hydrant truck pump faster than 450gpm. Even though they were rated up to 800gpm. I am not going into why, just in case I'll ever need that job back...... The stationary carts I never seen fuel faster than 320gpm, most around 280gpm. British Airways in PHX takes about 1:15min to 1:30min to refuel by one hydrant truck. And the majority of the time, not much fuel goes into the center.... Hydrant fuel equipment don't pump. They are pressure regulators. That fuel in the pipeline underground can be up to 170psi or more. They can be hard to calibrate the proper nozzle pressure because of that. Tankers on the other hand pump and are much easier to set the pressure limitations.

With two tankers on a 747, DC10/MD11 I have seen as much as 1300gpm. But on a 747 that will eventually slow as the smaller tanks in the wing fill and slow the rate.... DC-10 and MD-11 you get that with their three mains open. The MD-11 does have aux tanks but I have never fueled them. And have never topped one off.

The last airplane I am going to talk about is the Airbus A300. It has an outer cell in each wing that holds 8200lbs side. Similar to the 737NG only wing tank at 8600lbs a side. I felt bad when UPS or Fedex rampers when the airplane mechanics would drain the outer cell into the inner cell. (A300 does not do it automatically like the A320 does). With any fuel in the inner cell, the outer cell has to leave full. The A300 has a nice refuel rate, except for into the outer cells. That means that no matter how much fuel is going onto it, the outer cells get refueled to full at 45gpm EACH. That means a tanker is in the way for 30minutes minimum! I do not know why they were piped so small....

Sorry about leaving md80s out and Rjs. I have rambled on enough....

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