CairnterriAIR
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Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:43 am

Yout often hear about how a given airline proudly advertised operating a certain type of plane...good example is Pan Am proudly using the 747 or 707 in adds or whatnot. But what aircraft type did an airline order with high expectations only for the company to regret the order and quickly (or not) remove the plane from the fleet? Any good example of airlines and planes?
 
wilco737
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:42 am

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Thread starter):
But what aircraft type did an airline order with high expectations only for the company to regret the order and quickly (or not) remove the plane from the fleet? Any good example of airlines and planes?

I think CX got rid of their 340-600 quite quickly and preferred the 777 instead.

I don't know what they exactly were complaining about, but it looks like this airplane wasn't best for CX, so they got rid of them.

Not 100% sure, but didn't AC use 340-500 for a short period as well?

wilco737
  
 
bomber996
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:50 am

MD-11 anyone?   

Peace   
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Starlionblue
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:03 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):
I think CX got rid of their 340-600 quite quickly and preferred the 777 instead.

I don't know what they exactly were complaining about, but it looks like this airplane wasn't best for CX, so they got rid of them.

AFAIK CX leased the 340-600. When the lease ended, they returned the planes. My impression is that the plane was fine but once the lease ended the 777 was a better choice for CX for those routes.

[Edited 2013-07-25 23:08:04]
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wilco737
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:21 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
AFAIK CX leased the 340-600. When the lease ended, they returned the planes. My impression is that the plane was fine but once the lease ended the 777 was a better choice for CX for those routes

That could be. But the lease seemed to be rather short. Only couple years.

wilco737
  
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:51 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 4):
That could be. But the lease seemed to be rather short. Only couple years.

CX operated the 340-600 for seven years so not super-short. I'm guessing they had options to extend but didn't.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
wilco737
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:59 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):
CX operated the 340-600 for seven years so not super-short. I'm guessing they had options to extend but didn't.

Then it was longer than I thought. I had 3-4 years in mind. It is not super short, but not particular long. I guess they recalculated with the 777 and found that it is more efficient for them.

Thanks for the info.

wilco737
  
 
davidho1985
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:04 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 3):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):I think CX got rid of their 340-600 quite quickly and preferred the 777 instead.

I don't know what they exactly were complaining about, but it looks like this airplane wasn't best for CX, so they got rid of them.
AFAIK CX leased the 340-600. When the lease ended, they returned the planes. My impression is that the plane was fine but once the lease ended the 777 was a better choice for CX for those routes.[Edited 2013-07-25 23:08:04]
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 6):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 5):CX operated the 340-600 for seven years so not super-short. I'm guessing they had options to extend but didn't.
Then it was longer than I thought. I had 3-4 years in mind. It is not super short, but not particular long. I guess they recalculated with the 777 and found that it is more efficient for them.

Thanks for the info.

wilco737

Becasuse thos A346 are over-weighted, which affect the fuel efficiency.
 
speedbird128
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:06 am

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 6):

I think CX got the early model birds with the heavy wing and so performance wasn't the best. And when the leases expired the 77W was getting better by the day...
A306, A313, A319, A320, A321, A332, A343, A345, A346 A388, AC90, B06, B722, B732, B733, B735, B738, B744, B762, B772, B7
 
joffie
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:41 am

Virgin Blue ordered the E-170 and got rid of them about 4 years later in favour for the ATR.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:01 pm

B-307 New technology. High ops costs. Not kept in service any longer than necessary.
Martin 202 Poor design. Bad Karma.
Tudor?
Deux Ponts?
Hermes?
B-377 Reliability/ mx issues. High ops. costs. Not kept in service any longer than necessary. WFU ASAP!
Comet 1 Pioneering design issues led to crashes/grounding. New 4 series too late entering market. Unable to compete.
L1049-L1649 all series. Unable to generate extra revenue expected because of excessive ops/mx issues. WFU ASAP!
DC-7 all series. Unable to generate extra revenue expected because of excessive ops/mx issues. WFU ASAP!
L-188 Design flaws (Typical Lockheed flutter issues   .) Poor timing. (Adored by EA,RA,VG for niche use.) Found niche as freighter.
Vanguard Poor timing for pax. found niche as freighter.
Cv-990 Design issues/Performance issues.
Mercure?
MD-11 Poor timing. Should have had a new wing. Redesign (from DC-10) of horizontal tail surfaces caused critical landing issues (although some carriers ops the aircraft for many years without incident!.)

Comments/fill in blanks-----------?  
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CaptCufflinks
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:08 pm

Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):

Not 100% sure, but didn't AC use 340-500 for a short period as well?

AC had both the -300 and the -500.

They operated the -500 for about 3/4 years as a stop gap between the 744 and the arrival of their 777's.

The -300's were slightly more successful with them and were operated from the mid 90's until their retirement in 2008. I was fortunate enough to be on one of the very last trips of the A343 to LHR.
 
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:46 pm

AS was never particularly happy with its 737-700s. After operating them for a short time they switched all orders going forward to the 737-800. Now they are gradually leaving early, even though there are still 737-400s in the fleet.
 
mandala499
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:02 pm

Quoting CairnterriAIR (Thread starter):
But what aircraft type did an airline order with high expectations only for the company to regret the order and quickly (or not) remove the plane from the fleet? Any good example of airlines and planes?

SQ with the 757-200... they preferred the A310...

Bouraq... MD-80s... copycat move (when Lion got the MD-80s)... their ops geared to the 732, adding new type resulted in ops and mx nightmares.
Star Air... MD-80s... copycat move (when Lion got the MD-80s)... their ops geared to the 732, adding new type resulted in ops and mx nightmares.
Indonesian Airlines... 727... bought 20... cheap to lease/buy, fuel hog, maintenance hog... ruined the airline (along side with the 747-200SR and -300). Regretted giving back their 737-330s they leased. Then RVSM killed it (their 727 was non-RVSM).
Mandala... 727... copycat move (Jatayu was operating up to 5 727s and enjoying full loads while Mandala was on 732s). They got rid of it pretty quickly.
Merpati... 727... same story as Mandala.
Merpati... MA-60... expensive to operate (more expensive than the ATR72 they leased) and they can't get rid of it (one reason driving Merpati into deeper financial problems).

All the above were highly advertised... and it disappeared quick enough   
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golfradio
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:39 pm

AI and its Government imposed purchased of the 77L. They are still trying to sell them.

[Edited 2013-07-26 12:46:53]
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ImperialEagle
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:21 pm

I think EI used 720's trans-atlantic for a while and couldn't wait to trade them in for something with longer legs.
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Polot
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:10 pm

Quoting CaptCufflinks (Reply 11):
They operated the -500 for about 3/4 years as a stop gap between the 744 and the arrival of their 777's.

The A345s were not intended to be a stopgap, AC at one point also had A346s on order. They eventually decided to switch to the 777s (which CEO Milton allegedly preferred in the first place, but Airbus offered a much better deal that AC couldn't refuse).

Anyways AA/DL and the MD-11s come to mind. DL also was initially unhappy with the MD-90 and had plans to get rid of them to simplify their fleet, but eventually changed their mind obviously.
 
KELPkid
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:03 pm

AA and DL: 747-100's...
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Viscount724
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:05 pm

Quoting bomber996 (Reply 2):
MD-11 anyone?

KLM would probably disagree.

Quoting CaptCufflinks (Reply 11):
Quoting wilco737 (Reply 1):

Not 100% sure, but didn't AC use 340-500 for a short period as well?

AC had both the -300 and the -500.

They operated the -500 for about 3/4 years as a stop gap between the 744 and the arrival of their 777's.

AC's 2 A345s were acquired for the YYZ-HKG-YYZ route which the A343 couldn't easily operate nonstop. So they were unrelated to the 744 which also wasn't capable of YYZ-HKG nonstop. The 2 A345s were the only A340s actually owned by AC. The A343s were all leased. AC still owns the A345s. They're stored at Malta if not mistaken after their fairly brief lease to TAM.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 10):
B-307 New technology. High ops costs. Not kept in service any longer than necessary.
Martin 202 Poor design. Bad Karma.
Tudor?
Deux Ponts?
Hermes?
B-377 Reliability/ mx issues. High ops. costs. Not kept in service any longer than necessary. WFU ASAP!
Comet 1 Pioneering design issues led to crashes/grounding. New 4 series too late entering market. Unable to compete.
L1049-L1649 all series. Unable to generate extra revenue expected because of excessive ops/mx issues. WFU ASAP!
DC-7 all series. Unable to generate extra revenue expected because of excessive ops/mx issues. WFU ASAP!
L-188 Design flaws (Typical Lockheed flutter issues .) Poor timing. (Adored by EA,RA,VG for niche use.) Found niche as freighter.
Vanguard Poor timing for pax. found niche as freighter.
Cv-990 Design issues/Performance issues.
Mercure?
MD-11 Poor timing. Should have had a new wing. Redesign (from DC-10) of horizontal tail surfaces caused critical landing issues (although some carriers ops the aircraft for many years without incident!.)

I would add the Bristol Britannia. Very late going into service and many problems, mainly with the engines and electrical system. Two prototypes were written off during the development program.
 
opethfan
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:11 am

Quoting Polot (Reply 16):
The A345s were not intended to be a stopgap, AC at one point also had A346s on order. They eventually decided to switch to the 777s (which CEO Milton allegedly preferred in the first place, but Airbus offered a much better deal that AC couldn't refuse)

Which would probably explain why AC have 8 A333s in the middle of their 767s and 777s.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:25 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
add the Bristol Britannia



yeah. if they hadn't had the engine issues they would have had more of them online earlier. Bad timing with the jets right on their heels. Same for the CL44 D and J's.

I thought of a few more.

Air Florida started-up in '72 with a $19.00 fare and a 707-321 to hop around Florida in!    Can you imagine the fuel situation! And I remember a lot of those flights were less than half-full! They couldn't wait to get their hands on a fleet of L188's!

Then there was the PA blunder of ordering a small fleet of L15's. That was a cluster f%#k.

Still 'thinkin.
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KELPkid
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:55 am

Then there was Delta, who was the launch customer for the MD-90. They cancelled the order after just 16 were delivered, citing the fact that the thing was a maintenance nightmare for themselves.

Then who starts grabbing up every second hand MD-90 in existence in the late 2000's?   
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 6:15 am

America West and the 747-200. They leased four after Ansett invested in the company. I have heard first-hand that one actually departed on a scheduled flight with only one passenger on board.


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DL_Mech
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:12 am

I would think that WN would rather be flying a large fleet of -800s instead of -700s at this point.

TW almost flew the 707 into 1984. Not many airlines flew 707s and 767s side-by-side.


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ImperialEagle
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:44 pm

DL and the 310's.
Seems like there was "bad-blood" for quite a while between Ron Allen and Airbus over that one.
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planewasted
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:02 pm

The Q400 was not a success with SAS. After three crash landings in a short time frame because of landing gear problems passengers started to refuse flying on them. Understandable as people were hurt, but not seriously, by propeller parts entering the cabin. I think Bombardier bought them back in the end and sold some CRJs to SK instead.
 
bohica
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:04 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 17):
AA and DL: 747-100's...

There were many airlines worldwide who jumped on the 747 bandwagon for prestige reasons. I don't have any numbers available, but I wonder how many airlines who ordered the 747 got rid of them before 1980?
 
KELPkid
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:23 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 26):
There were many airlines worldwide who jumped on the 747 bandwagon for prestige reasons. I don't have any numbers available, but I wonder how many airlines who ordered the 747 got rid of them before 1980?

DL did for sure. AA kept them going on NY-LA domestic flights until about 1984 or so...although one of their early 747's became NASA 905, the (original) shuttle carrier aircraft:

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bohica
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 8:03 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 27):
AA kept them going on NY-LA domestic flights until about 1984 or so...

I thought AA discontinued 747 ops before 1980 then got a couple SP's in the 80's for the NRT flights. I could be wrong though.


Possibly the worst buyers remorse were the L-1011's purchased by PSA. "Mother Grinningbird" almost bankrupted the company.


[Edited 2013-07-27 13:05:44]
 
B777LRF
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:13 pm

SAS and the Q-400. Took three incidents involving collapsed landing gears before they pulled the plug, put the fleet up for sale and got a very good deal for a replacement batch of CRJ9s.
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Viscount724
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sat Jul 27, 2013 9:30 pm

Quoting bohica (Reply 28):
Quoting KELPkid (Reply 27):
AA kept them going on NY-LA domestic flights until about 1984 or so...

I thought AA discontinued 747 ops before 1980 then got a couple SP's in the 80's for the NRT flights. I could be wrong though.

I think 1984 is correct for the last AA 747-100s in passenger service. In the July 1, 1983 OAG AA had 4 daily 747s LAX-JFK. They were operating 747 freighters (converted from passenger aircraft) until later in the 1980s.

Following AA 741 photos all dated 1984.


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clickhappy
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sun Jul 28, 2013 12:10 am

How about SQ and their A340-300's?
 
bohica
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sun Jul 28, 2013 6:26 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 30):
I think 1984 is correct for the last AA 747-100s in passenger service. In the July 1, 1983 OAG AA had 4 daily 747s LAX-JFK.

I humbly stand corrected. It's been a while. I must be getting old.   
 
Yukon880
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:02 am

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 10):
B-307 New technology. High ops costs. Not kept in service any longer than necessary.
Martin 202 Poor design. Bad Karma.
Tudor?
Deux Ponts?
Hermes?
B-377 Reliability/ mx issues. High ops. costs. Not kept in service any longer than necessary. WFU ASAP!
Comet 1 Pioneering design issues led to crashes/grounding. New 4 series too late entering market. Unable to compete.
L1049-L1649 all series. Unable to generate extra revenue expected because of excessive ops/mx issues. WFU ASAP!
DC-7 all series. Unable to generate extra revenue expected because of excessive ops/mx issues. WFU ASAP!
L-188 Design flaws (Typical Lockheed flutter issues .) Poor timing. (Adored by EA,RA,VG for niche use.) Found niche as freighter.
Vanguard Poor timing for pax. found niche as freighter.
Cv-990 Design issues/Performance issues.
Mercure?
MD-11 Poor timing. Should have had a new wing. Redesign (from DC-10) of horizontal tail surfaces caused critical landing issues (although some carriers ops the aircraft for many years without incident!.)

Comments/fill in blanks-----------?

You're painting with an incredibly broad brush here Eagle! Perhaps I am detecting some personal bias, coming from your own experiences with some of these aircraft, but I would really like to hear your opinion of individual situations. Would you care to take just a few from your list and apply the qualification found in the OP's last sentence?

"Any good example of airlines AND planes?"

Thanks in advance,

Yukon
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HAWK21M
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:14 am

Add the B739 to the list after the B739ER was available  
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AmericanB763ER
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sun Jul 28, 2013 9:43 am

Quoting clickhappy (Reply 31):
How about SQ and their A340-300's?
SIA went the extra mile by ordering MD-11's in late 80's/early 90's, then cancelling the order in favor of the A343's which didn't exactly arouse the enthusiasm of the airline either...

As this thread is about ordering AND flying the SIA MD-11-order does't qualify since the airline cancelled it before the aircraft was available but it's an interesting fact nevertheless...

[Edited 2013-07-28 02:47:47]
 
Devilfish
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:21 pm

Surprised no one has mentioned the "critters" yet.....

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Apparently, F9, Mexicana/Avianca or LA didn't exactly have very "high expectations" of everyone else's favorite whipping boy either.  


Ditto with the 736.....

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   .....though its operators are seemingly less vocal about its "short"comings.   

[Edited 2013-07-28 07:50:04]
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ImperialEagle
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Sun Jul 28, 2013 2:49 pm

Quoting Yukon880 (Reply 33):
You're painting with an incredibly broad brush here Eagle!

Well, he asked! I just threw some examples out there off the top of my head.  
Oh, and yes, I am deffinately opinionated. Like everyone else I formed those opinions out of personal experience or because I was lucky enough to grow-up around so many old-time commercial aviation pioneers. Is there some specific example you wish for me to pontificate over?  

I will say that I am personally fond of a lot of those aircraft I mentioned. I am hoping someone with experience with the Hermes will shed some light on that rare bird. Same thing for the Breguet 763 at least it had reliable engines as far as piston engines go. I was able to have a nice (and short) conversation with an old-salt from Great Brittain years ago and never was able to get any pertinent info. on the Hermes.
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Yukon880
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Tue Jul 30, 2013 1:36 am

For starters, step up to the pulpit and give us the CV-990 sermon!
I may well counter with the    's advocate point of view.
We'll see how it goes.

 
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cornutt
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Tue Jul 30, 2013 6:21 pm

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 10):
B-307 New technology. High ops costs. Not kept in service any longer than necessary.

I've never heard that the 307 had high ops costs; it was a pretty similar aircraft to the DC-2. It might have been priced a good bit higher than the DC-2, Boeing's pricing being what it was at the time. However, from what I've read, what killed it (besides WWII) was that Boeing screwed up their order management and promised United the first 75 production slots. Other airlines that might have been interested went to Douglas because they could get their first deliveries a lot sooner.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 10):
B-377 Reliability/ mx issues. High ops. costs. Not kept in service any longer than necessary

Yep, the 377 had extremely high operating and mx costs. It was pushing the limits of piston-engine technology, at a point where the jet age was only a few years off. Pan Am and the other airlines that bought them got rid of them as soon as they could. A few of them survived in the form of the Guppies.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 10):
L1049-L1649 all series. Unable to generate extra revenue expected because of excessive ops/mx issues

I've never heard that... I thought the Connies were considered good performers once the R-3350 issues got solved.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 10):
Mercure?

An oddball. From what I've read Air France was happy with the ones they had. But they had extremely short range, too short for any other airline to be interested. What they were designed to do, they apparently did well, but they were too specialized.
 
RussianJet
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:41 pm

There is of course the Armavia SSJ situation, but it's very difficult to fully pick the bones out of that one. Likely a combination of some concern with political considerations and over-commitment.
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Okie
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Tue Jul 30, 2013 7:58 pm

Quoting cornutt (Reply 39):
I've never heard that... I thought the Connies were considered good performers once the R-3350 issues got solved.

TWA was replacing over a hundred engines a month for their fleet. That takes a lot of Mx to R & R and even more to overhaul that many engines.
The R-3350 was just a little ahead of their time as far as metallurgy was concerned. The concept of using PRT is just now starting to be re-introduced what 50+ years later on reciprocating engines.

Okie
 
citationjet
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Tue Jul 30, 2013 9:04 pm

America West - 747-200
AA - MD-11
AA - F100
I would add the Mercure & Air Inter. Only 12 aircraft were built. The plane had a very short range. That explains why only 12 of the 194 photos of the Mercure in A.net's database were taken outside of France.

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[Edited 2013-07-30 14:37:28]
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Aircellist
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:22 pm

Quoting cornutt (Reply 39):
Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 10):
B-307 New technology. High ops costs. Not kept in service any longer than necessary.

I've never heard that the 307 had high ops costs; it was a pretty similar aircraft to the DC-2. It might have been priced a good bit higher than the DC-2, Boeing's pricing being what it was at the time. However, from what I've read, what killed it (besides WWII) was that Boeing screwed up their order management and promised United the first 75 production slots. Other airlines that might have been interested went to Douglas because they could get their first deliveries a lot sooner.

Would you be meaning the 247?

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 42):
I would add the Mercure & Air Inter. Only 12 aircraft were built. The plane had a very short range. That explains why only 12 of the 194 photos of the Mercure in A.net's database were taken outside of France.

Air Inter barely flew out of France: they were the domestic airline, save for a few liaisons, a few years before their merging into AF.
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HA_DC9
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Tue Jul 30, 2013 10:53 pm

Two airlines come to mind for this thread: HA and AQ

In the case of HA, they were a longtime user of the DC-9 series all the way up to the current 717. Back in the 1980's, HA acquired the MD-80 for use in interisland flying alongside their DC-9-50's. I believe HA had about 6-7 MD-80's total in the fleet, but the MD-80's only stayed for a few years and I think were totally gone by around 1990-1991 with some going to CO including the one that had its nose crash through the EWR terminal back in 2000.

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From my understanding (although I could be wrong), HA got rid of the MD-80's because they were too costly for the very short interisland runs. I'm not sure how they handled from these short flights from the maintenance perspective. Plus too, for the interisland market, an MD-80 had way too much capacity. Once the MD-80's were gone, HA stuck with the DC-9-50's until eventually acquiring the 717 and the rest is history.

In the case of AQ, they were a longtime user of the 737 series all the way to their demise in 2008. In 1992, AQ acquired a pair of 737-400's for use in interisland flying alongside their classic 737-200's.

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The 737-400's stayed shorter than HA had their MD-80's as AQ faced the same problem...too costly to operate for the interisland market. Also like HA, I think the 737-400 had too much capacity for the market. Also as has been discussed many times on a.net, the CFM-56 engines the 737 used could not handle the ultra short range, high frequency flying that makes the Hawaii interisland market. Thus, AQ stuck with the 737-200 to the end (which some would argue partly contributed to them going tango uniform in 2008).
 
Viscount724
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Wed Jul 31, 2013 12:22 am

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 42):
he plane had a very short range. That explains why only 12 of the 194 photos of the Mercure in A.net's database were taken outside of France.

For their entire history, Air Inter was almost exclusively a French domestic carrier.
 
bohica
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:20 am

Back in the mid 1990's Atlantic Coast Airlines purchased 12 Dash 8's from Air Wisconsin. At the time, ACA was not prepared to handle operating the Dash 8 and it almost caused them to go into bankruptcy. ACA got rid of them within 2 years.
 
ImperialEagle
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:48 am

Quoting cornutt (Reply 39):
I've never heard that the 307 had high ops costs; it was a pretty similar aircraft to the DC-2.

Huh?
The 307 was introducing pressurizaton, superchargers, high altitude structural technology, etc. with plenty of weight penalty. Neither PA nor TW ordered more than a handfull and were relieved to move them over to the war effort.

Quoting cornutt (Reply 39):
It was pushing the limits of piston-engine technology, at a point where the jet age was only a few years off. Pan Am and the other

The Pratt 4360's were "pushing" it all right. However the 377 entered service with the airlines well before the jets were to enter service------ with the exception of the Comet I of course.

Quoting cornutt (Reply 39):
I thought the Connies were considered good performers once the R-3350 issues got solved.

Well the original short-bodied models were pretty good once the original "kinks" were worked out. The 3350's did o.k.

When Lockheed brought out the 1049's they also had plain 3350's. They had to be careful to take it easy on that first batch because those engines were underpowered on that airframe.

Then with the 1049C's-1649A's the 3350's had the three each PRT's added and THOSE 3350 issues NEVER did get solved!
Oh, you could derate them as PA tried to tell everyone they would end up doing. That helped. And fly in the soup at lower altitudes to keep 'em in LOW Blower. But, on a hot day you still had to run-up the power for takeoff and the temps could get scary pretty quick. Then there was the oil------------- 
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dlednicer
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Wed Jul 31, 2013 2:50 am

And then there was Airpac and the BAe-146. Airpac sued BAe and Avco (the engine manufacturer) for $100m, claiming that claiming that the airline had been "driven into bankruptcy" by the allegedly poor reliability and excessive maintenance costs of a single BAe 146-100 which it leased for two years.

http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1989/1989%20-%203839.PDF
 
Max Q
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RE: Aircraft Airlines Regretted Ordering And Flying

Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:11 am

Continental and the 737-500.


Little pig of an Aircraft, carrying significantly less passengers than the -300 but with almost identical fuel burn, very slow (as in all the -300 / 400/ 500 series) and cramped with a horrible ride in turbulence.


It was supposed to be the ideal machine for 'Cal Lite" which was even more misguided than this, very worst of Boeings designs.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.

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