RussianJet
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Biggest Wing?

Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:26 pm

Seems like an obvious question, but I couldn't find any threads in searches.

Which aircraft has (or had) the biggest wing? Let me break it down further: Which is the biggest by area, and which by span? Also, are there any aircraft that have a particularly large wing relative to their overall size? What are the advantages and disadvantages there?
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Starlionblue
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Tue Aug 20, 2013 4:40 pm

Widest span ever was the H-4 Hercules AKA Spruce Goose. Currently in service is the An-225 Mriya, which I'm pretty sure also has the largest wing area ever.

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Also, are there any aircraft that have a particularly large wing relative to their overall size?

A380-800

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
What are the advantages and disadvantages there?

Room for growth into the A380-900. Big wings give more lift but also more drag. They are also heavier.

If it hadn't been for the 80x80m ICAO "box", the A380 would have had a wider span. As it is now, it has more chord than optimal, giving both more parasite drag and more induced drag that could have been achieved.
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nomadd22
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:54 pm

The AN-225 at 84m outspans the A380.


[Edited 2013-08-20 11:01:52]
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RussianJet
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:25 pm

Shorter aircraft seem to need proportionally wider wings - the Lockheed Viking springs to mind. Why is this?
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Tue Aug 20, 2013 7:22 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 3):
Shorter aircraft seem to need proportionally wider wings - the Lockheed Viking springs to mind. Why is this?

There's nothing aerodynamically that requires more relative span with a shorter fuselage. I think the Viking needs wide wingspan because of required carrier performance. Also they give long loiter time with high lift plus have lots of space for fuel.
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RussianJet
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:49 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
There's nothing aerodynamically that requires more relative span with a shorter fuselage. I think the Viking needs wide wingspan because of required carrier performance. Also they give long loiter time with high lift plus have lots of space for fuel.

Fair enough, obviously just an incorrect perception on my part. Probably also aided by cases like the A380, where a series is given room to 'grow into' the wing.
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:35 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 2):

I just knew that a post would have this comparative pic  
On the topic....Spruce Goose is the winner till date.
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RussianJet
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:39 pm

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 6):
I just knew that a post would have this comparative pic

I was hoping it would! It does the job quite nicely. Still quite interested in any examples of apparent disproportion though.
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:31 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 7):
I was hoping it would! It does the job quite nicely. Still quite interested in any examples of apparent disproportion though.

Aircraft have the wings they need I suppose. For low to medium subsonic flight you want a high aspect ratio (long and thin) to decrease induced drag. However this creates structural issues. For transonic flight you want swept wings to delay shockwave formation. To hold a lot of fuel you need a thick wing but this creates more parasite drag. Lots and lots of compromises, with many factors not being aerodynamic.

Here are some fun ones:

F-104

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Proteus

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RE: Biggest Wing?

Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:36 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 5):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 4):
There's nothing aerodynamically that requires more relative span with a shorter fuselage. I think the Viking needs wide wingspan because of required carrier performance. Also they give long loiter time with high lift plus have lots of space for fuel.

Fair enough, obviously just an incorrect perception on my part. Probably also aided by cases like the A380, where a series is given room to 'grow into' the wing.

747SP has the same wingspan and wing area as the 747-100/200/300 (but much simpler flaps) although the SP is almost 50 feet shorter. Until the 777-200LR (and freighter) and 787-8, the 747SP was the only Boeing widebody with wingspan greater than fuselage length.
 
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:55 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Until the 777-200LR (and freighter) and 787-8, the 747SP was the only Boeing widebody with wingspan greater than fuselage length.

Pikers.


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vikkyvik
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:44 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 9):
Until the 777-200LR (and freighter) and 787-8, the 747SP was the only Boeing widebody with wingspan greater than fuselage length.

That's an interesting observation that I never picked up on, though the 762 was darn close.

The SP also has a ridiculously large v-stab compared to its fuse. Of course, necessary for the reduced moment arm the shorter fuse provides.

U-2 has a quite high aspect ratio wing:


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...as does the Dash 8 (I always find the wings a bit comical):


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I always thought that Gulfstreams have quite large wings (and flaps) for their size:


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Also always thought IL-96-300's proportions look designed in a way that more-or-less exactly fails to please the eye:


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RE: Biggest Wing?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 12:33 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
Also always thought IL-96-300's proportions look designed in a way that more-or-less exactly fails to please the eye:

Purely visually, it would need a stretch to look a lot nicer (and likely better engines to make that feasible) – pretty much as the A380-800, only that an A380-900 is a lot more likely to actually happen.

Apart from that the IL-96 looks very nice to me.
 
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
Also always thought IL-96-300's proportions look designed in a way that more-or-less exactly fails to please the eye

  

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
Purely visually, it would need a stretch to look a lot nicer

There is of course the stretched Il-96-400 (currently only in freighter -400T form but apparently some of those will be converted to passenger duty for Cubana). It does indeed look a lot nicer, but it still lacks the elegance of the A340-500 IMO.

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RE: Biggest Wing?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:08 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Also, are there any aircraft that have a particularly large wing relative to their overall size?

The Vulcan comes to mind.
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:22 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
Also always thought IL-96-300's proportions look designed in a way that more-or-less exactly fails to please the eye:

Sacrilege!
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:35 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 12):
Apart from that the IL-96 looks very nice to me.

It's a strange thing - it actually looks great in the Aeroflot livery, at first glance. Then I look again, and I start to notice all the weird proportions - fat fuse, tall tail, large wingspan, huge winglets....

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 15):
Sacrilege!

  
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 11):
Also always thought IL-96-300's proportions look designed in a way that more-or-less exactly fails to please the eye:

The engine placement along the wing also looks off IMHO...
 
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:34 pm

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 17):
The engine placement along the wing also looks off IMHO...

Now that you say that, I somewhat agree. The inboard engines are a ways outboard compared to other 4 holers.

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RE: Biggest Wing?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 1:25 am

Quoting Kuja (Reply 13):
There is of course the stretched Il-96-400 (currently only in freighter -400T form but apparently some of those will be converted to passenger duty for Cubana). It does indeed look a lot nicer, but it still lacks the elegance of the A340-500 IMO.

Nothing beats the A340-600 anyway...!   

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 16):
It's a strange thing - it actually looks great in the Aeroflot livery, at first glance. Then I look again, and I start to notice all the weird proportions - fat fuse, tall tail, large wingspan, huge winglets....

Its proportions are effectively similar to a shorter-legged 777-200 due to the smaller engines.

But preferences are often formed by what we're used to - I think it is primarily different and unusual.
 
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 3:59 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Nothing beats the A340-600 anyway...!

That's certainly true. Best large jet ever!

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
But preferences are often formed by what we're used to - I think it is primarily different and unusual.

Once again you hit the nail squarely on the head, Klauschen. It just looks a bit odd because we're so used to seeing A and B all the time.
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:12 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 8):
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/XF91-21republic.jpg

I was intrigued by Starlionblue's post showing the XF-91 Thunderceptor with its unique wing chord design (to address wingtip stall issues at low speeds and high AOA), further explained here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republi...nderceptor#Design_and_development.

Forgive me for going OT but I've gotta ask this: how were engineers able to overcome the wingtip stall issue at low speeds/high AOA in subsequent designs?
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 7:27 pm

Quoting Western727 (Reply 21):
Forgive me for going OT but I've gotta ask this: how were engineers able to overcome the wingtip stall issue at low speeds/high AOA in subsequent designs?

They solved tip stalls by giving the wing variable incidence, or "washout". All modern airliners have this. The wing is slightly twisted to give a higher angle of incidence near the root, so at any given angle of attack for the entire wing, the root will have a higher angle of attack than the tip. The root will thus stall before the tip.

This has two advantages.
- You retain aileron authority since the tip is the last section to stall.
- On a swept wing the root is further forward. If it stalls the center of pressure moves aft and the plane pitches down, automagically resolving the stall. If the tip stalls first, there is a pitch up moment, which is bad Feng Shui.

[Edited 2013-08-23 12:27:26]

Note that washout wasn't the only thing. There are fences, vortex generators and other aerodynamical magic in this game.


[Edited 2013-08-23 12:36:14]
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vikkyvik
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:22 pm

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Nothing beats the A340-600 anyway...!

Except the A340-500.   Better proportioned, in my opinion.

I also like the 773, but that's just due to how huge it looks.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
But preferences are often formed by what we're used to - I think it is primarily different and unusual.

   Absolutely.
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:16 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
are there any aircraft that have a particularly large wing relative to their overall size?

A tad off topic, but is there any aircraft with a larger tail-plane - relatively speaking - than the Gloster Javelin's?
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 3:32 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Also, are there any aircraft that have a particularly large wing relative to their overall size?

Myasishchev VM-T Atlant.


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RE: Biggest Wing?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:12 pm

The Soviet Union also gave us the bonkers Kalinin K-7.

http://www.rusring.net/~levin/k7/k_7_5.jpg
http://www.internetmodeler.com/artman/uploads/1/Kalinin_ussr_kalinin-k7_1933.jpg
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RussianJet
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:20 pm

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 26):
The Soviet Union also gave us the bonkers Kalinin K-7.

I have never seen that one before - thanks for posting. I can only describe designing a plane like that as truly ridiculous behaviour.
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 12:09 am

Quoting RussianJet (Reply 27):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 26):
The Soviet Union also gave us the bonkers Kalinin K-7.

I have never seen that one before - thanks for posting. I can only describe designing a plane like that as truly ridiculous behaviour.

I'm sure the 2nd photo is computer-generated (from a movie or similar) and makes the aircraft appear much larger than it was. It's from a longer series of similar computer-generated images.
 
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:27 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
I'm sure the 2nd photo is computer-generated (from a movie or similar) and makes the aircraft appear much larger than it was. It's from a longer series of similar computer-generated images.

And it's inspired from the K-7, but the number of engines does not fit. Much larger indeed.
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RussianJet
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 2:13 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
I'm sure the 2nd photo is computer-generated (from a movie or similar) and makes the aircraft appear much larger than it was. It's from a longer series of similar computer-generated images.

I see that - but it's still a crazy plane.
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:26 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
Quoting RussianJet (Reply 27):
Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 26):
The Soviet Union also gave us the bonkers Kalinin K-7.

I have never seen that one before - thanks for posting. I can only describe designing a plane like that as truly ridiculous behaviour.

I'm sure the 2nd photo is computer-generated (from a movie or similar) and makes the aircraft appear much larger than it was. It's from a longer series of similar computer-generated images.

You're probably right. Sorry should have noticed that.
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oly720man
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 3:47 pm

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
Also, are there any aircraft that have a particularly large wing relative to their overall size?

There's the solar powered Helios that's all wing, pretty much

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Helios_in_flight.jpg

More sensibly there's the WB-57


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RussianJet
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:09 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 32):
More sensibly there's the WB-57

Always loved that plane. Huge wing alright, but somehow the big, integrated engines make it look nicely-proportioned.
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RE: Biggest Wing?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:32 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 28):
I'm sure the 2nd photo is computer-generated (from a movie or similar) and makes the aircraft appear much larger than it was. It's from a longer series of similar computer-generated images.

My favorite - the one with turrets from a battleship added.

http://www.newburyscalemodelclub.org.uk/wp-content/gallery/kalinin-k-7/kalinin_k-7_3.jpg
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