dkramer7
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Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:30 am

Hi all

I was wondering, why would QF choose RR engines for its 744 fleet and GE engines for it 763 fleet?

Would it not have been better to choose one type, and avoids having more than one type to work on?
 
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EK413
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:57 am

Quoting dkramer7 (Thread starter):

I was wondering, why would QF choose RR engines for its 744 fleet and GE engines for it 763 fleet?

Would it not have been better to choose one type, and avoids having more than one type to work on?

The QF fleet is made up of GE and RR power plants.

The RR B767's are ex-BA aircraft (being retired by the end of the year) and are compatible with RR B744 fleet.

Now, awaiting the announcement, QF's B744 fleet will compromise of 7 GE powered B744's (should VH-OEB remain active) & 3 x RR powered B744's.

Another great source: http://www.theqantassource.com/b744.html

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skyhawkmatthew
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:32 am

Quoting EK413 (Reply 1):
The QF fleet is made up of GE and RR power plants.

We know that – but the question is why is this the case, and not all-RR or all-GE (for the original 743/744 and 763 fleets)? I know the 744ER was only offered with the GE powerplants, but they came much later in the game after the 743/744 and 763 fleets were already established (as did the BA RR 763s).
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Ned Kelly
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:50 am

Quoting dkramer7 (Thread starter):
I was wondering, why would QF choose RR engines for its 744 fleet and GE engines for it 763 fleet?

IIRC, when Qantas first ordered the 767-300ER, at the time I don't believe that the the 767-300ER was available with RR Engines. Also, QF already had the 767-200ER in service prior to this (can't recall if these had P&W engines though).
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:57 am

Quoting Ned Kelly (Reply 4):
IIRC, when Qantas first ordered the 767-300ER, at the time I don't believe that the the 767-300ER was available with RR Engines.

That's what I can recollect too. BA was the first to have RR on its 767. First flight of a 767 with Rolls Royce happened sometimes in 1989 while QF 763 first delivery happened in August 1988.

Quoting Ned Kelly (Reply 4):
Also, QF already had the 767-200ER in service prior to this (can't recall if these had P&W engines though).

They had Pratt & Whitney.
 
Ned Kelly
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:21 am

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 5):
They had Pratt & Whitney.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I guess my memory is better than I thought.
 
skipness1E
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:58 am

Qantas did have a Rolls Royce tradition like Cathay, but the RB211 on the B767 was a little niche with little resale value.
 
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:05 am

Quoting skipness1E (Reply 7):
Qantas did have a Rolls Royce tradition like Cathay, but the RB211 on the B767 was a little niche with little resale value.

The RR 763s were ex BA, QFs own 763s were GE powered. Only BA and HU? I think ordered RR 763s.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:37 am

Qantas first RR-powered 747 was delivered on November 14, 1979, a little bit more than eight years after the first QF 747 was handed-over. It was VH-ECB, a -238B(M).

Out of nineteen 747-238B received brand new, only the last three were equipped with Rolls-Royce's. Of the three 747-238B(M), two were powered by the same engines. Then the SP-38, -338 and the -438 followed the same path.

Before that, QF jetliners were all PW-powered.
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:40 pm

Commonality is not the be all and end all of fleet operations. As noted by the posters above availability and desired performance are typically more significant.

Sure, if you have, say, a fleet of half a dozen 767 and half a dozen 747, a common engine base has big advantages, but if you have large fleets of either, you get to the point where the savings aren't that great since you have such large quantities of either engine.
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sunrisevalley
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:15 pm

The more interesting question would be why the A330 fleet is GE and not RR powered. Times change, people in the decision making process change and bring in different perspectives and company relationships can change for a number of reasons.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:29 pm

Quoting SpaceshipDC10 (Reply 8):
Qantas first RR-powered 747 was delivered on November 14, 1979, a little bit more than eight years after the first QF 747 was handed-over.

When QF ordered their original batch of 742s, PW was the only engine available. KLM took delivery of the first GE-powered 742 in August 1975 and the first RR-powered 742 went to BA in June 1977.
 
dkramer7
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sun Aug 25, 2013 2:04 am

Quoting Starlionblue (Reply 9):

Sure, this makes sense. Though it does raise another question: At what point is the fleet large e ough to justify an extra engine type?
 
KELPkid
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:40 am

Quoting dkramer7 (Reply 12):
Sure, this makes sense. Though it does raise another question: At what point is the fleet large e ough to justify an extra engine type?

Well, in QF's case, most of the GE-powered 744's are 747-400 ER's (the only pax ER's built, which are a mainstay on the SYD-DFW route now). The 744ER was only available with GE power, so that kind of sealed the deal for QF   They did pick up some used frames from MH with GE power (?) at one point, but those left the fleet pretty quickly right before the A380 entered their fleet...anything else 744 has Rollers on it.
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Starlionblue
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:30 am

Quoting dkramer7 (Reply 12):
Though it does raise another question: At what point is the fleet large e ough to justify an extra engine type?

There's no fixed answer. It depends on how much the engines cost, what delivery slots exist for the engines, the availability of maintenance and spare engines downroute, whether you do your own maintenance or outsource, etc...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
sunrisevalley
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:33 am

Quoting dkramer7 (Reply 12):
Sure, this makes sense. Though it does raise another question: At what point is the fleet large e ough to justify an extra engine type?

QF did have about 250 engines in their widebody operation. So a few more or less of one brand or the other is probably not too relevant.
 
Gemuser
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:22 am

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
anything else 744 has Rollers on it.

Not quite. QF still has one GE powered B744 in the fleet and it has recently had the cabin reconfigured so it appears to be staying for the near future, at least.

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LH707330
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:21 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
The 744ER was only available with GE power,
Quoting skyhawkmatthew (Reply 2):
I know the 744ER was only offered with the GE powerplants

According to this Boeing doc, the PW4062 was also an option, I just don't think any were actually ever ordered because the GE was better. The reason the Rollers never made it onto the -ER is because they were already straining to hit 60k on the 524H. IIRC, the same logic is why the 764 was only offered with GE/PW and only GE was bought.
 
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CCA
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:23 pm

The PW4062 is on CXs B744ERFs. But as stated seeing QF was the only B744ER customer the GE engine was the better choice with the number of GE powered 767s.

Perhaps CX wished they'd gone with GE as well seeing they now have large GE fleets with the B748 and B77W.

I believe PW was selected due to the fact they had PW4056s in the fleet on the ex SIA birds.
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LH707330
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:58 pm

Quoting CCA (Reply 18):
The PW4062 is on CXs B744ERFs.

Good to know, I never knew there were PW 744ERs.
 
RyanairGuru
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:18 pm

Quoting KELPkid (Reply 13):
They did pick up some used frames from MH with GE power (?) at one point, but those left the fleet pretty quickly right before the A380 entered their fleet...anything else 744 has Rollers on it.

Not quite VH-OEB is still flying which is GE (ex OZ, -48E). IIRC QF purchased 3 non-ER GE 744s (2 MH, 1 OZ).

OEB received an interior refurbish, so presumably it is staying put for the time being.

These aircraft were second hand, and they presumably picked up whatever they could at the time, and obviously the ERs are GE, but as you say all the original 438s were RR.

Quoting sunrisevalley (Reply 10):
The more interesting question would be why the A330 fleet is GE and not RR powered

And maybe even more interesting, why are the 388s RR and not EA  
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FlyCaledonian
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:28 am

The question might be when did the RR become an option on the 763? If I'm recalling correctly, BA's 763 orders came after the 744, so getting Boeing to offer the engine might have been linked in. On other threads it's been mentioned have BA switches RR engines from the 763 to the 744.

Now when QF ordered the 763, was the RR engine an option? Were QF's 744s already on order? Getting RR powered 763s might have been an option had the 763 order come later, but in the end it comes down to preference. Interesting though that across the 747 and 767 QF has managed to operate aircraft with engines from all three manufacturers.
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KELPkid
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:39 am

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 21):
The question might be when did the RR become an option on the 763? If I'm recalling correctly, BA's 763 orders came after the 744, so getting Boeing to offer the engine might have been linked in. On other threads it's been mentioned have BA switches RR engines from the 763 to the 744.

Now when QF ordered the 763, was the RR engine an option? Were QF's 744s already on order? Getting RR powered 763s might have been an option had the 763 order come later, but in the end it comes down to preference. Interesting though that across the 747 and 767 QF has managed to operate aircraft with engines from all three manufacturers.

A.Net rumor holds that the RB211 engine option on the 763 was a terrible choice. Fuel burn was too high and range suffered a bit. It worked out well for BA, though, because they used the same engine variant as their 744's, and the engines were swapped between the fleets quite frequently, and BA wasn't using them on routes that were pushing the aircraft's range   The only other taker on RB211 power on the 763 was a Chinese airline with a small fleet...
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Max Q
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:35 am

Well ,they sure looked nice..
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Viscount724
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RE: Qantas Engine Choice For 747 And 767 Fleets

Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:01 pm

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 21):
The question might be when did the RR become an option on the 763?

BA ordered the first 11 of their eventual 28 RR-powered 763s in August 1987. Related Flight International article at the time.
http://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPD...%27&scrollbar=0&page=1&view=FitH,0

Quoting FlyCaledonian (Reply 21):
If I'm recalling correctly, BA's 763 orders came after the 744, so getting Boeing to offer the engine might have been linked in.

BA's first 744 order was in August 1986, a year before the 763 order.

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