FoxRomeo
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No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 9:41 am

Apologies if it's been discussed before, but I couldn't find anything in the search..

I've just come across this video from 2012 of a Jet2 757 making a 'spoiler-less' landing in Madeira. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv_3BXr4AXQ The video cuts away a few seconds after nose gear touchdown, but according to the title neither spoilers nor reverse were used.

This is something that I've never seen before and was wondering what your thoughts were?
 
musapapaya
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:00 am

They forgot to arm the spoilers as part of the landing checklist?
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:47 am

... Or perhaps the spoilers were on MEL? (much more likely)
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musapapaya
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:25 am

Will they MEL this item when they go to a place like this with a short runway?
Lufthansa Group of Airlines
 
YYZatcboy
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:40 am

If you can get performance numbers for it then certainly.
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NAV20
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 11:55 am

Don't see any 'evident' problem with the landing? Maybe had slight problems lining up at first (crosswinds?) but the landing itself looks to have been just about perfect - 'both wheels together,' and they don't appear to have needed any excessive braking to get down to turn-off speed in plenty of time?


Quoting FoxRomeo (Thread starter):
This is something that I've never seen before

Not 'getting at you,' pal, but which bit of it have you never seen before, FoxRomeo? Looks like a routine landing to me?

PS - should maybe add that (in my VERY limited experience) use of spoilers is an option, depending on conditions (like a really short runway?)- not any sort of 'requirement' for all landings. Any pros following this discussion, by all means correct me if I'm wrong?

[Edited 2013-09-28 05:25:11]
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brilondon
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:21 pm

The passengers were able to walk off the plane and the were able to use the plane again right? Well then there doesn't seem to be a problem with the landing. I don't know what else you would need to know.
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par13del
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 12:58 pm

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 5):
PS - should maybe add that (in my VERY limited experience) use of spoilers is an option, depending on conditions (like a really short runway?)- not any sort of 'requirement' for all landings. Any pros following this discussion, by all means correct me if I'm wrong?

Oh for the days of old when engines were cheap to repair and fuel price was peanuts, those landings with full flaps, spoilers, massive reverse thrust and brakes which required etiquette was that you brace for landing to avoid leaning forward, or holding your stomach after take off when they fully retract the flaps causing that sinking feeling, oh for the good old days.  

On a serious note, as others mentioned, they could have forgotten to arm the spoilers, or the pilots said let's do without them since it was a clear day, the runway long enough, probably a light load. It does appear to be windy so with more flaps the a/c would be much slower and more affected by the wind, crabbing may have been required.
Note also that on take off there does not appear to be much flaps.
Of course we are also taking about a 757, so.........
 
kaitak
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:03 pm

I don't know for certain, but I would be surprised if spoilers were not included in any MEL list. I doubt if many pilots would want to land at an airport without having spoiler assistance; Madeira is a notoriously difficult runway with strong and unpredictable winds too.

One of the major factors in the Lufthansa A320 crash WAW in 1993 (?) was the spoilers not being armed.
 
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longhauler
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 1:07 pm

The spoilers will still deploy with idle reverse thrust selection, even if not armed.

And they will also deploy, with thrust at idle with weight on the main gear if armed.

So .. they were not armed, and as reverse was not selected, they did not deploy unarmed. That is a very strange way to land an aircraft in a warm climate. I would be curious to know why that decision was made.
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mandala499
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 2:06 pm

Quoting musapapaya (Reply 3):
Will they MEL this item when they go to a place like this with a short runway?

2631m total length and 2981m threshold to threshold isn't exactly short.

No spoilers and no reversers to me point to an Air/Ground sensing problem/fault. It prevents spoiler and reverser application but does not affect the anti-skid function, braking or autobraking function. The 757 autobrake system can be active regardless of Air/Ground sensing as long as throttle position is at idle or reverse and the wheels have spun.
According to the 757-200 QRH, landing on flaps 30 with Air/Ground Logic in Air Mode, with 85 tons landing weight you need only 1082 meters (with max manual braking), this includes 300m of air distance for passing the threshold at 50ft. For dispatch with A/G stuck in Air (Dunno if dispatchable, I don't have the MEL), the minimum runway required for dispatch becomes 1805 meters.

Assuming it's dry, zero wind... if wet... the runway available is enough (can't be f-ed to calculate it all).
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RussianJet
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:09 pm

Quoting brilondon (Reply 6):
The passengers were able to walk off the plane and the were able to use the plane again right? Well then there doesn't seem to be a problem with the landing. I don't know what else you would need to know.

There's nothing wrong with the question. People are used to seeing the spoilers deploy on landing, so why on earth would there be any problem exploring the issues relating to using or not using them?
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KC135Hydraulics
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:26 pm

Isn't braking effectiveness heavily affected by spoiler deployment? I remember reading about this during the accident report on that AA MD-82 that crashed in the late 90s due the spoilers not being deployed. The difference in weight supported by the gear and the wing when spoilers are not deployed is most certainly in favor of the wing, leaving the brakes very ineffective.
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FoxRomeo
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 4:42 pm

I never said there was anything 'wrong' with the landing, as some of you seem to suggest.

I merely stated that I've never seen an airliner land without spoilers before, and wondered why it would have been the case on the above occasion.

In fact I don't know of any reason why a PIC would choose not to use them, even IF you didn't 'need' them. They decrease lift and increase drag, surely that's what one would want for landing to ensure maximum braking efficiency??
 
Boeing77W
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sat Sep 28, 2013 10:31 pm

Although not the 757, the 737 Flight Crew Training Manual published by Boeing talks about different landing techniques and the affect they can have on landing distances. On a Dry runway it states that not using the spoilers and thrust reverse, classed as improper landing technique, can increase required distances by as much as 1165ft/355m.

Spoilers aren't included in the MEL.

Currently sat with three other pilots all from different airlines. We all think along the same lines and have SOPs that would prohibit us from landing without the use of the spoilers or idle reverse. Doesn't matter how long the runway is. Certain aircraft such as the Embraer 170-195 don't even give you the choice to land without spoilers.

[Edited 2013-09-28 16:15:16]
 
comairguycvg
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:59 am

Quoting KC135Hydraulics (Reply 12):
Isn't braking effectiveness heavily affected by spoiler deployment?



That's right. When the spoilers pop up, not only do they add drag to help slowing down, but they also add downforce to the wing which helps the mains get planted down more firm on the runway which helps increase braking effectivness.
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N243NW
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sun Sep 29, 2013 2:53 am

Three possibilities, as I see it:

-Autospoilers on MEL and were not immediately deployed manually upon touchdown,
-Autospoilers were armed but failed to deploy, or
-Autospoilers were not selected due to a failure to complete the before landing checklist or some pretty poor (IMO) aeronautical decision-making.

At most airlines landing without spoilers whatsoever is not permitted and/or very poor technique...though I do think their name is pretty appropriate seeing as they're great at "spoiling" a butter-smooth touchdown. 
Quoting Boeing77w (Reply 14):
Spoilers aren't included in the MEL.

True - the actual spoilers themselves have no MEL relief, but most airplanes can be dispatched without autospoilers (Boeing calls it the Auto Speed Brake system), provided certain conditions are met. This is probably what YYZatcboy meant.
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Max Q
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sun Sep 29, 2013 6:01 am

Good chance the Captain forgot to arm the autospoilers. They will deploy as soon as the reverse interlock is activated however and we cant see if that happened as the video is too short.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Boeing77W
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:41 am

Quote:
True - the actual spoilers themselves have no MEL relief, but most airplanes can be dispatched without autospoilers (Boeing calls it the Auto Speed Brake system), provided certain conditions are met. This is probably what YYZatcboy meant.

Good point.
 
mandala499
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:35 pm

Does anyone know if a 757 can be dispatched with an "Air/Ground Logic stuck in Air" ?
No spoiler and no reverser cowls opening does seem to point at this problem.
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YYZatcboy
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Sun Sep 29, 2013 11:29 pm

Quoting Boeing77w (Reply 14):
Spoilers aren't included in the MEL.
Quoting N243NW (Reply 16):
This is probably what YYZatcboy meant.

Yes that's what I meant. Thanks!
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Max Q
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Mon Sep 30, 2013 2:20 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 19):
es:

Does anyone know if a 757 can be dispatched with an "Air/Ground Logic stuck in Air" ?

To my knowledge this cannot be done and you wouldn't want to try, there are a lot of functions tied into this, not just thr spoilers and reverse, pressurization for example and many others.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 19):
No spoiler and no reverser cowls opening does seem to point at this problem.

Disagree, just forgetting to arm the spoilers would explain them not deploying normally, you can't tell reverse wasn't used later in the landing roll as the video is too short, furthermore spoilers would have activated with idle reverse actuation
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boeingfixer
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:10 am

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 19):
Does anyone know if a 757 can be dispatched with an "Air/Ground Logic stuck in Air" ?

This is a definite -No Go- item if it's failed in air mode.

Quoting mandala499 (Reply 19):
No spoiler and no reverser cowls opening does seem to point at this problem.

Highly unlikely due to the architecture of the air/ground sensing system on the B757. To me it looks like either the auto speedbrakes were not armed or there was a failure of the system prior to landing and they were not manually deployed. Also the clip is too short to indicate whether the thrust reversers were used or not.

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mandala499
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RE: No Spoilers Landing

Mon Sep 30, 2013 1:43 pm

Quoting boeingfixer (Reply 22):
This is a definite -No Go- item if it's failed in air mode.

Yes, I agree. Unfortunately we didn't see the enough of the landing roll either as others have said. I originally came up with the numbers just to see whether it was possible to land over there with it stuck in Air mode.
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