ecbomberman
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ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:47 pm

I suppose this is fresh off the press:

http://avherald.com/h?comment=44a68305/0000&opt=1024

My questions are as follows...

1) Does the A320 series allow the thrust levers to go to T/R when the MLG sensors does not sense a touchdown so to speak?

2) Is it bad practice to perform a G/A when the T/R is/has been selected/deployed? I know at least one airline's SOP is to commit landing once T/R is selected in fear that the T/R doors might not close properly if 'forward thrust' is selected again.

3) IF the T/R has not been selected, is there anything wrong with the PF's G/A action which might attribute to the tailstrike?

Many thanks in advance  
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zeke
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:34 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Thread starter):
1) Does the A320 series allow the thrust levers to go to T/R when the MLG sensors does not sense a touchdown so to speak?

Needs both main gear compressed signal

Quoting ecbomberman (Thread starter):
2) Is it bad practice to perform a G/A when the T/R is/has been selected/deployed?

Correct, standard manufacturers procedure is not to perform a rejected landing if reverse has been selected. Technically it is a rejected landing if the gear has touched down.

Quoting ecbomberman (Thread starter):
3) IF the T/R has not been selected, is there anything wrong with the PF's G/A action which might attribute to the tailstrike?

Just the amount of back stick, a rejected landing should follow a standard rotation technique.
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ecbomberman
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:07 pm

So would you say that after reading the report that something has gone quite wrong? Lack of CRM, possibly the violation of SOP?

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
Just the amount of back stick, a rejected landing should follow a standard rotation technique.

In hindsight, shouldn't the PF select TOGA wait a few seconds for the speed to build up again then rotate, or is that the 'standard procedure' you're talking about?

[Edited 2013-10-10 08:09:27]
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oly720man
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Thu Oct 10, 2013 4:31 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 1):
Needs both main gear compressed signal

Just as a matter of interest, is there any cockpit indication of this or do (or should) pilots know they've landed by the feel and visuals? It does seem a strange area of uncertainty.
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Tristarsteve
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:08 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 3):
Just as a matter of interest, is there any cockpit indication of this or do (or should) pilots know they've landed by the feel and visuals? It does seem a strange area of uncertainty.

There is no light that comes on, or other indication, but things happen. On a Boeing the spoiler lever deploys quickly. On an Airbus, the spoilers deploy, but there is no indication, but you can feel the effect.
 
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zeke
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:22 am

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 2):

After selecting rev, they should have stopped. The technique for a rejected landing depends a little if you are on the ground or airborne (bounce recovery), if on the ground, toga, let the speed accelerate, during this time you will get a takeoff config warning, let the speed build up, and rotate at the normal rate.

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 4):



Spoilers are displayed on the lower sd, rev amber then green on the upper. Airbus SOP for the PM to call spoilers rev green and deceleration.
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Max Q
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:50 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 5):
After selecting rev, they should have stopped.

Exactly, once reverse is selected you are committed to staying on the ground.


Attempting to go around after T/R activation only invites disaster.
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ecbomberman
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:37 am

Quoting oly720man (Reply 3):
Just as a matter of interest, is there any cockpit indication of this or do (or should) pilots know they've landed by the feel and visuals? It does seem a strange area of uncertainty.

I think at least the ability to select T/R on the Thrust Levers would already be a very good indication that they're on ground, would it?
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:52 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 6):
Exactly, once reverse is selected you are committed to staying on the ground.


Attempting to go around after T/R activation only invites disaster.

What is the slam acceleration response time on the A320......is it 4 or 6 secs.
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oly720man
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:27 am

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 7):
I think at least the ability to select T/R on the Thrust Levers would already be a very good indication that they're on ground, would it?

Not sure if there's a switch that disables T/R if the MLG isn't compressed, by however much it needs to be compressed. And the last thing you'd want is the T/R not working because the MLG switch malfunctioned.

On this A330 landing, and don't blink, it looks like the T/R are deployed a fraction of a second after the rear wheels on the MLG are on the ground but before the front ones are fully in contact, which would be before the full weight of the aircraft is on the gear, so I presume the T/R can be deployed anytime in the landing sequence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7FrQUtCVBw
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Pihero
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:53 am

Quoting TristarSteve (Reply 4):
On an Airbus, the spoilers deploy, but there is no indication, but you can feel the effect.

The spoilers position is on the lower ECAM screen, with all the other flight control surfaces. In this case, you'll have ten upward pointing green arrows indicating spoilers extension... Hence the *Spoilers Green* call out by the PM.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 9):
Not sure if there's a switch that disables T/R if the MLG isn't compressed, by however much it needs to be compressed. And the last thing you'd want is the T/R not working because the MLG switch malfunctioned.

Those are weight sensors, and yes, no ground signal would mean no reverse. Never heard of an incident of this type.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 9):
it looks like the T/R are deployed a fraction of a second after the rear wheels on the MLG are on the ground but before the front ones are fully in contact

The sensors are on the struts.
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oly720man
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:59 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
The sensors are on the struts.

OK, so do they respond to any loading on the MLG rather than the whole weight of the aircraft?
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Tristarsteve
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Fri Oct 11, 2013 2:21 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
The sensors are on the struts.

On A320 the sensors respond to the struts being not fully extended by measuring that the torque links have moved from the full down position.
On the A330 the sensors measure that the bogie has moved away from the flight position, so yes as soon as the rear wheels have touched, the bogie moves and the aircraft is not in the air.
The B777 has a load sensor in the MLG beam up in the wing, just to be different!

Quoting Pihero (Reply 10):
Hence the *Spoilers Green* call out by the PM.

Ta. Must go flying again one day to see what you see. Spend all my life in the cockpit on the gate. Some things we never see, like ECAM Actions.
 
Max Q
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:02 am

Quoting HAWK21M (Reply 8):
What is the slam acceleration response time on the A320......is it 4 or 6 secs.

Er, who cares, if you try to go around after you have selected reverse and one or more does not stow you have a lot bigger problems..
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Fabo
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:21 pm

Quoting oly720man (Reply 9):
And the last thing you'd want is the T/R not working because the MLG switch malfunctioned.

Uncommanded (and unexpected/unintended commanded) deployement pre-touchdown would in all likelihood end up way worse than no deployment after landing. You are not counting with reverse anyway for minimum field length.
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ecbomberman
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Mon Oct 14, 2013 1:19 pm

Quoting Fabo (Reply 14):
You are not counting with reverse anyway for minimum field length.

I guess what you are saying is that with autobrake selected, the amount of deceleration will be the same with/without autobrake as the plane will decelerate at the same rate anyhow?
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Pihero
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Mon Oct 14, 2013 2:39 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 15):
I guess what you are saying is that with autobrake selected, the amount of deceleration will be the same with/without *REVERSE THRUST* as the plane will decelerate at the same rate anyhow?

Yes but it's more than that : reverse thrust isn't part of the landing performance certification for dry runways.
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aklrno
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Tue Oct 15, 2013 7:30 am

I was under the impression that the main reason to use reverse thrust was to save brake wear and reduce brake heating, thus allowing shorter turnarounds.

WN seems to LUV reverse thrust and I always thought it was their quick turns.

Am I even close to correct?
 
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zeke
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Tue Oct 15, 2013 11:37 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 17):

A320s have carbon brakes, most (not all) 737s have metal brakes. The operational considerations are different.
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ecbomberman
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Tue Oct 15, 2013 12:58 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 16):
Quoting Pihero (Reply 16):
reverse thrust isn't part of the landing performance certification for dry runways

What about if you are using autobrake + T/R in a wet runway. I know that the distance required to stop would be longer, but if both were used, won't the stopping distance theoretically be the same?

BTW, I'm don't intend to challenge you, I'm just a curious guy  
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Fabo
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Tue Oct 15, 2013 4:27 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 19):
What about if you are using autobrake + T/R in a wet runway. I know that the distance required to stop would be longer, but if both were used, won't the stopping distance theoretically be the same?

Would be, but you don't use autobrakes if you need to stop ASAP. You'd use autobrakes when you are comfortable they will stop you in time, and then it does not matter what else you use or don't use (as long as there is enough traction)
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Pihero
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:18 pm

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 19):
What about if you are using autobrake + T/R in a wet runway. I know that the distance required to stop would be longer, but if both were used, won't the stopping distance theoretically be the same?

When you select autobrakes, you simply choose a deceleration rate, which , of course , will be achieved with wheel braking ( and antiskid ), your chosen reverse thrust and the amount of *other braking sysytems* : flaps, spoilers...
This means that, runway being long enough, you'd achieve the same landing distance, with a given autobrake setting, whether yoiu use the reversers or not.

Quoting Fabo (Reply 20):
Would be, but you don't use autobrakes if you need to stop ASAP.

The autobrake on *MAX* setting (on RTOs) is a lot more violent than any pilot braking in general ; you have to experience it to believe it.
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Fabo
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:24 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):
The autobrake on *MAX* setting (on RTOs) is a lot more violent than any pilot braking in general ; you have to experience it to believe it.

I am pretty confident it is - it is pretty much enough to realize the deceleration is from 200ish km/h to 0 in what, a kilometer or so. More than most pilots would brake for generally. But - unless MAX on Airbus works a bit different than what I am used to - you could still achieve better braking with full manual braking. Not really used in typical day though, yes.
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ecbomberman
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Wed Oct 16, 2013 7:03 pm

Quoting Pihero (Reply 21):
The autobrake on *MAX* setting (on RTOs) is a lot more violent than any pilot braking in general ; you have to experience it to believe it.

Just to be clear, Autobrake MAX can only be used on T/O for Airbus, not landings. You can only choose 2 types of decel rates for the 'contemporary' Airbus, 1 or 2 more settings for the A345/6 and with the A388, you'd even have the option to BTV (Brake to Vacate) minus the first few that came off the assembly line.

Am I right??  
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Pihero
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RE: ANA A320 Tailstrike On GA At Sendai

Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:33 am

Quoting Fabo (Reply 22):
But - unless MAX on Airbus works a bit different than what I am used to - you could still achieve better braking with full manual braking.

I have done enough Sim training to know that a pilot - the vast majority of them - can only match a Max autobrake after three or four tries : it seems too violently unnatural... The only limit on MAX is the antiskid about to block a tyre.

...But there is always the possibility of a switched-on pilot to beat the autobrake during landing by preparing very deliberately to apply maximum pedal at touch-down.

Quoting ecbomberman (Reply 23):
Am I right?

A20 / 330 /342,3 : Settings are Low / Medium / and Max - not recommended for landing
A345,6 : LO, 2, 3 / 4, HIgh / Max also not recommended for landing,
So 6 settings vs 3 for the rest of the fleet...
...except the A380 which has a different presentation : one *T/O* setting ( equivalent to RTO and on a dial for landing LO / 2, 3 / HI... the BTV superimposes on these.
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