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Coal
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767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:08 am

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9IhQxmt08U

Just found this on YouTube. Seems pretty scary from the video. Never seen an a/c take off with the spoilers deployed, let alone moving as much as they did after rotation. I'm assuming this is not normal at all and they should have probably cancelled the flight?

Happy to hear your insights.

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Coal
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Kaiarahi
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:16 am

Ordinary cross-wind takeoff - nothing unusual. Spoilers are linked to ailerons to provide roll (in this case x-wind) control.
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N757ST
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:17 am

Spoilers assist the aircraft with roll control at slow speeds....
 
dc9super80
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:51 am

On a cross-wind takeoff you will hold full ailerons deflection and spoilers in to the wind at the start of the take off roll to prevent the wind from lifting the wing. As speed increases you will release the pressure and on rotation hold the controls almost neutral and place the aircraft in a crab to maintain centerline tracking. On big heavy aircrafts the lower the airspeed the more spoilers will be used instead of ailerons
 
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Starlionblue
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:58 pm

Quoting Coal (Thread starter):
I'm assuming this is not normal at all and they should have probably cancelled the flight?

There's not way of knowing that from the video. As mentioned, spoilers are used for roll control so their extension makes sense here. As for the weather conditions, without the METAR and radar data for the time it is hard to tell if the weather was within limits.

I think it is safe to say that pilots have better information than passengers. More importantly, they don't feel like dying any more than their passengers do. Typically I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
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musang
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:36 pm

Quoting DC9super80 (Reply 3):

On a cross-wind takeoff you will hold full ailerons deflection and spoilers in to the wind at the start of the take off roll to prevent the wind from lifting the wing. As speed increases you will release the pressure and on rotation hold the controls almost neutral and place the aircraft in a crab to maintain centerline tracking. On big heavy aircrafts the lower the airspeed the more spoilers will be used instead of ailerons

Appropriate for a light aircraft. The flight crew training manual for the 737 basically advises an increase in aileron (therefore spoiler) deflection as speed increases. Some types advise units of roll input (marked on control column head) per 10 knots of x-wind, and the 737 flight ops manual suggests adding as much as is required to keep the wings level.

Performance calculations accomodate the extra aileron and rudder drag on a x-wind take-off.

Regards - musang
 
BoeingGuy
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Tue Oct 15, 2013 8:37 pm

All Boeing airplanes would give the crew a Warning if the spoilers were deployed while at takeoff power (not including inputs for roll control, as others have mentioned).
 
PGNCS
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Wed Oct 16, 2013 12:15 am

Quoting Coal (Thread starter):
I'm assuming this is not normal at all and they should have probably cancelled the flight?

This has been discussed before. It is normal with a severe crosswind: please see Starlionblue's and BoeingGuy's responses in particular.

Why would you assume that it was in any way abnormal and they should have canceled the flight? It's generally wiser to assume that the pilots do, in fact, know what they are doing and ask why a situation is outside your scope of experience. If the pilots made a gross error there are plenty of genuine experts on this site to explain that too.
 
copter808
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:04 pm

There are two things visible that make it appear the spoiler position is being controlled by the pilot--not inadvertently deployed. They are moving (up and down) and the inboard aileron appears to be raised and moving. I'll admit that I had to view it multiple times to see the aileron movement though!
 
roseflyer
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:55 pm

Quoting copter808 (Reply 8):
They are moving (up and down) and the inboard aileron appears to be raised and moving. I'll admit that I had to view it multiple times to see the aileron movement though!

You are right. You can clearly see the spoiler moving with the inboard aileron. That's roll control mode for the flight spoilers which is perfectly normal.
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EGGD
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Tue Oct 29, 2013 7:01 pm

The spoilers deploy on the 'downward' wing when moving the control column left or right to aide the ailerons in roll control as previously stated, nobody in either company that I have worked for know how much aileron input is needed before they crack open. At my previous company we were told no more than 2 units of in to wind aileron on the takeoff roll on the 757/767. To me this looks like this aircraft was taking off way in excess of the maximum allowable crosswind limit for a wet runway (contaminated!?) which in the wet isn't huge anyway (25kts at current company).
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Tue Oct 29, 2013 10:15 pm

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
The spoilers deploy on the 'downward' wing when moving the control column left or right to aide the ailerons in roll control as previously stated, nobody in either company that I have worked for know how much aileron input is needed before they crack open. At my previous company we were told no more than 2 units of in to wind aileron on the takeoff roll on the 757/767.


Spoiler "laydown" (747,757,767,777) or "pickup" (737) checks are performed in flight to insure proper rigging prior to delivery to the customer. Laydown -- appropriate spoilers should be cracked by 4 units (757) or 3 units (747,767,777) and down at 1 unit of aileron. Pickup -- appropriate spoilers should be down at 1.5 units (737) and cracked by 4 units of aileron.
 
PGNCS
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Wed Oct 30, 2013 4:55 pm

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
At my previous company we were told no more than 2 units of in to wind aileron on the takeoff roll on the 757/767. To me this looks like this aircraft was taking off way in excess of the maximum allowable crosswind limit for a wet runway (contaminated!?) which in the wet isn't huge anyway (25kts at current company).

I can't vouch for the pilot's technique, nor do I know what guidance their manuals have on aileron use in crosswinds (I have operated the 757/767 under various manual systems and the guidance on the sunject ranges from essentially nonexistent to very specific.) Having said that, I don't think there is any objective evidence that the pilot exceeded any limitations, and his directional control was excellent throughout the takeoff roll. If someone can come up with actual WX for this takeoff proving a limitation or procedure was violated that's one thing, but conjecture is not the same as fact.
 
EGGD
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:11 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 11):
Spoiler "laydown" (747,757,767,777) or "pickup" (737) checks are performed in flight to insure proper rigging prior to delivery to the customer. Laydown -- appropriate spoilers should be cracked by 4 units (757) or 3 units (747,767,777) and down at 1 unit of aileron. Pickup -- appropriate spoilers should be down at 1.5 units (737) and cracked by 4 units of aileron.

Thanks for the information!

Quoting PGNCS (Reply 12):
If someone can come up with actual WX for this takeoff proving a limitation or procedure was violated that's one thing, but conjecture is not the same as fact.

100% conjecture, hence the admission of "looks like" in my post. I for one would have been at least having a 'discussion' with the Captain about whether it is sensible to take off into conditions such as those in the video, regardless of what is written within the airlines' operating manual.
 
PGNCS
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Wed Oct 30, 2013 10:47 pm

Quoting EGGD (Reply 13):
Quoting PGNCS (Reply 12):If someone can come up with actual WX for this takeoff proving a limitation or procedure was violated that's one thing, but conjecture is not the same as fact.
100% conjecture, hence the admission of "looks like" in my post. I for one would have been at least having a 'discussion' with the Captain about whether it is sensible to take off into conditions such as those in the video, regardless of what is written within the airlines' operating manual.

I understand your point, but wished to clarify it for all those here. If you were qualified on the 75/67 (which presumably you were/are) and you approached me as the Captain I would be happy to discuss it with you.
 
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7BOEING7
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Thu Oct 31, 2013 3:24 am

Quoting Kaiarahi (Reply 1):
Ordinary cross-wind takeoff - nothing unusual. Spoilers are linked to ailerons to provide roll (in this case x-wind) control.


  

Wet, gusty, crosswinds -- that's when the guy up front earns his pay.
 
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CALTECH
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:53 pm

Quoting EGGD (Reply 10):
To me this looks like this aircraft was taking off way in excess of the maximum allowable crosswind limit for a wet runway (contaminated!?) which in the wet isn't huge anyway (25kts at current company).

Where did this aircraft run out of rudder authority ? Believe it is rudder authority that determines maximum crosswind limits, not aileron or spoilers.

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FlyHossD
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RE: 767 Take Off In Storm With Spoilers Deployed

Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:13 am

I recall some 737 videos - directly from Boeing, I believe - showing the differences in take off distance with and without roll spoilers deployed throughout the take off roll; it was significant, but I can't remember what percentage of the increase.

So my former employer's policy was to limit control wheel to deflection to not more than 10 degrees until rotation/lift off began.
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.

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