dfwjim1
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767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:40 am

Is it common practice for 767/757 pilots who work for American, United...etc to fly both types on a "regular" basis or do they usually stick to the same type, either a 767 or a 757?
 
CALMSP
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:42 am

Quoting DFWJIM1 (Thread starter):

on the sCO side we swap back and forth.
 
MesaFlyGuy
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:46 am

I have a friend who does that for AA. She can and has walked of of a 767 and right into the cockpit of a 757.
The views I express are my own and do not reflect the views and opinions of my company.
 
dfwjim1
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:46 am

Yes, I was wondering if, for example, an AA crew could fly a 757 from MIA to DFW and then hop in and fly a 767 to LAX.
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:58 am

Quoting DFWJIM1 (Reply 3):
Yes, I was wondering if, for example, an AA crew could fly a 757 from MIA to DFW and then hop in and fly a 767 to LAX.

Happens every day with many crews.

I was *told* that DL's current bid groups essentially stopped it. Meaning you couldn't do both on the same trips like before but I know for a fact a certain captain who flies STT a lot is a 76ER pilot. But maybe he's only 75 this month then goin back to the wide-ride next month.
What gets measured gets done.
 
Triple7Lr
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:15 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 4):

Still happens every once and a while at DL. During the summer I witnessed ATL-BSB have a maintenance issue on a 757 and they upgauged the flight to a 767 and used the same pilots
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sat Nov 02, 2013 3:17 am

Not correct about DL. We walk off a 752/753/767/767er and right on to any of those choices on the next flight. If the guy is only 757 this month, thats just the way his schedule worked out and not due to a restriction at DL.

The 767-400 is a separate category at DL due to the differences in avionics.
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maxpower1954
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sat Nov 02, 2013 4:45 am

Same at US, same trip pairing you can fly both types. I must say, I have always been a little surprised the FAA bought off on this over 30 years ago. They handle differently (the 767 is actually lighter on the controls) and land differently (I made better landings in the 757 but probably because I flew it more often).

Up through the 1970s at the majors, it was not uncommon to be current and qualified on two types. An F/O buddy of mine at Delta in the late '70s was DC-8 and 727 qualified. He alternated check rides every six months between the types. Maybe Cubastar can shed some light on this. And back in the the 1950s it was even crazier... I read about a guy at National that was a Lodestar captain AND F/O on the Electra, DC-6/7 and Constellation!
 
Max Q
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sat Nov 02, 2013 7:18 am

It is the same type rating, once qualified you are free to switch between 757 /767 as required. That is the whole point of the design.


There are some handling differences between sub types but not a big deal, the 767 is a nicer flying Aircraft Imho.


Individual airlines may artificially restrict Pilots to one or the other due to seniority / bidding restrictions or perhaps a group of Pilots only fly internationally on the 767. Delta flies their 764 Pilots completely separately as another artificial restriction.


At Continental however, we flew 752 /753/ 762/764 domestic and international with the same group of Pilots, no restrictions.


As Boeing intended.

[Edited 2013-11-02 00:20:36]

[Edited 2013-11-02 00:21:10]
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
jetstar
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sat Nov 02, 2013 1:39 pm

Although they share a common type rating, I believe that once you are qualified and rated in one model, all you need is differences training in performance data for the other model before you can legally fly the other, no flight training is needed, I would assume this is done during the pilot’s classroom training so the pilots are qualified in both models right from the start.

Back before Delta merged with Northwest, NW only operated the 757, so when they merged I read somewhere the NW pilot’s had to spend a day or so in the classroom for differences training before they could fly the 767.

Even with the same model aircraft, sometimes differences training is needed, when AA took over TWA and kept the TWA 757’s, before the AA 757 pilots could fly the ex TWA airplanes they had to go through differences training because a lot of the cockpit switches were reversed, up being off in one model was on in the other.

JetStar
 
FlyASAGuy2005
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sat Nov 02, 2013 2:05 pm

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 5):
Still happens every once and a while at DL. During the summer I witnessed ATL-BSB have a maintenance issue on a 757 and they upgauged the flight to a 767 and used the same pilots

And yes in that case it was an unscheduled change but they're still perfectly legal to fly the airplane.

What i'm saying (trying-from what I understand) is in a trip month, they won't have 757s and 767s built together in the same month so it's either or. One month they can fly 757s and the next month they can fly 767s.
What gets measured gets done.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Sun Nov 03, 2013 5:33 am

Quoting FlyASAGuy2005 (Reply 10):
And yes in that case it was an unscheduled change but they're still perfectly legal to fly the airplane.

What i'm saying (trying-from what I understand) is in a trip month, they won't have 757s and 767s built together in the same month so it's either or. One month they can fly 757s and the next month they can fly 767s

Nope. Not the case at all! Just depends on the trips the person you know happened to bid. 757, 753, 763, and 7ER can happen on any leg and there is no such thing as a 757 or 767 only line. Everyone is a 7ER category pilot and all flavors come with it. Just depends on your seniority and what you bid or (as you get more junior) what you get stuck with.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
FlyHossD
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Mon Nov 04, 2013 11:44 am

Quoting XFSUgimpLB41X (Reply 6):
The 767-400 is a separate category at DL due to the differences in avionics.
Quoting Max Q (Reply 8):
At Continental however, we flew 752 /753/ 762/764 domestic and international with the same group of Pilots, no restrictions.

Interesting difference between the carriers for the same airplane (the 764).
My statements do not represent my former employer or my current employer and are my opinions only.
 
freeze3192
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Mon Nov 04, 2013 4:16 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 9):

Back before Delta merged with Northwest, NW only operated the 757, so when they merged I read somewhere the NW pilot’s had to spend a day or so in the classroom for differences training before they could fly the 767.

Plus another day doing landings....in the airplane. I witnessed it every day for about two weeks at TOL. Touch and goes in a 767 looked like a blast!
"A passenger bets his life that his pilot is a worthy heir to an ancient tradition of excellence and professionalism."
 
maddogjt8d
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:15 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 9):
Even with the same model aircraft, sometimes differences training is needed, when AA took over TWA and kept the TWA 757’s, before the AA 757 pilots could fly the ex TWA airplanes they had to go through differences training because a lot of the cockpit switches were reversed, up being off in one model was on in the other.

I think this is an a.net myth. A few years ago, DL was swapping 75E's between CVG and JFK to feed their CVG-AMS flight. We were stuck on the gate in CVG on an extended weather delay into JFK and I had a nice chat with the Captain. I asked him if the switches were indeed reversed on the ex-TWA birds and he said they were no different than the other 757's Delta had.

Feeding back up to the broader topic, I would think that differences training would only be necessary between sub-types, ala 752 vs 753 to cover performance differences. But I'm no expert though, so don't quote me on that.
 
cvg2lga
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Mon Nov 04, 2013 8:16 pm

Quoting Triple7Lr (Reply 5):
Still happens every once and a while at DL. During the summer I witnessed ATL-BSB have a maintenance issue on a 757 and they upgauged the flight to a 767 and used the same pilots

If that was 221 on 6/21, I was on that flight. I was starting my vacation, ATL-BSB-REC and then to Campina Grande. It was a delightful change. The cabin crew really enjoyed it as well. I was in 3D and it was ship 182 that operated that night.

Tchau

DA-
They don't call em' emergencies anymore. They call em' Patronies.
 
jetstar
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Mon Nov 04, 2013 9:53 pm

Quoting maddogjt8d (Reply 14):
I think this is an a.net myth. A few years ago, DL was swapping 75E's between CVG and JFK to feed their CVG-AMS flight. We were stuck on the gate in CVG on an extended weather delay into JFK and I had a nice chat with the Captain. I asked him if the switches were indeed reversed on the ex-TWA birds and he said they were no different than the other 757's Delta had.


From what I remember reading, it was AA 757’s, not the TWA 757’s that the switch’s were reversed from the rest of Boeing 757’s.

Because the TWA 757’s were leased airplanes, I don’t think the owners of these airplanes, half were owned by Boeing’s leasing division and the other half by another aircraft leasing company would allow AA to modify them to their configuration so AA’s pilots had to go through differences training to fly the ex TWA 757’s

I believe AA’s MD-80’s were set up the same way and were different from the ex TWA MD-80’s. I believe but I am not 100 percent sure they were modified by AA to the AA configuration.

JetStar
 
LH707330
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:33 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 16):
From what I remember reading, it was AA 757’s, not the TWA 757’s that the switch’s were reversed from the rest of Boeing 757’s.

Why would anybody want reversed switches?
 
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1337Delta764
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Mon Nov 04, 2013 10:59 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 16):
Because the TWA 757’s were leased airplanes, I don’t think the owners of these airplanes, half were owned by Boeing’s leasing division and the other half by another aircraft leasing company would allow AA to modify them to their configuration so AA’s pilots had to go through differences training to fly the ex TWA 757’s

Actually, most were owned (and ordered) by ILFC. A few were also owned by Pegasus Aviation Finance Company.
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
 
jetstar
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:01 am

Quoting 1337Delta764 (Reply 18):
Actually, most were owned (and ordered) by ILFC. A few were also owned by Pegasus Aviation Finance Company.

I stand corrected on ILFC owning some of the TWA 757’s

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 17):
Why would anybody want reversed switches?

I am not sure how the switches are configured on Boeing aircraft, is up on or off, any Boeing pilots out there who can answer this question.

I remember reading somewhere right after AA absorbed the TWA 757’s that AA felt it case someone accidentally hit one of the overhead switches that is was safer if the system was turned on instead of the system turned off, but again I don’t know if this means that up is on or off, but AA had the switches reversed from the normal configuration, and I believe this was on all their airplanes, not just the 757’s. Hopefully there’s some AA pilots or mechanics on A.Net who could answer this.

JetStar
 
BravoOne
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:00 am

There have been several threads on the TWA switch issue before. Can't speak to the 757 or 767s that TWA operated but earlier Boeings like the 707 and 727 did in fact have reversed switch logic. Up was on, and down was off on the overhead panels as they treated them as vertical panels much like the FE panel. This logic went back as far as the Constellation and since TWA provided significant technical assistance to Lufthansa, they to used this same logic in the 727 and 707's that they operated.
 
jetstar
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Tue Nov 05, 2013 2:48 pm

Quoting BravoOne (Reply 20):

There have been several threads on the TWA switch issue before. Can't speak to the 757 or 767s that TWA operated but earlier Boeings like the 707 and 727 did in fact have reversed switch logic. Up was on, and down was off on the overhead panels as they treated them as vertical panels much like the FE panel. This logic went back as far as the Constellation and since TWA provided significant technical assistance to Lufthansa, they to used this same logic in the 727 and 707's that they operated.

I did some searching on the internet and you are correct, it was TWA that had their switches reversed in all their airplanes to operate the same way as a light switch, up is on.

Reversing a switch should be a simple operation, switches are removable, not hard wired in so it should be an easy job once you get access to the switch to turn the switch around. Probably took longer to do the paper work than to do the job.

I would assume that when DL got these ex TW 757’s after AA returned them to the leasing company that DL configured them to be the same as their 757’s.

JetStar
 
maddogjt8d
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:57 pm

Quoting jetstar (Reply 21):
I would assume that when DL got these ex TW 757’s after AA returned them to the leasing company that DL configured them to be the same as their 757’s.

This sounds reasonable since the ex-TWA birds went through some pretty extensive mods before entering service with DL. Didn't realize it was a relatively easy task to reconfigure switches, so it's quite possible they were reversed and then reconfigured to match DL spec.
 
jetstar
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RE: 767/757 Interchanging Of Pilots

Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:13 pm

Quoting maddogjt8d (Reply 22):
This sounds reasonable since the ex-TWA birds went through some pretty extensive mods before entering service with DL. Didn't realize it was a relatively easy task to reconfigure switches, so it's quite possible they were reversed and then reconfigured to match DL spec.

While I am an A&P mechanic and changed far more than my share of switches during my maintenance career, I never worked on a 757 so I am only basing my statement on my experiences with the corporate jets I worked on and how easy it was to get to the switches to remove them.

It could be as easy if there is enough wire behind the switch to just simply remove the switch and turn it 180 degrees and reinstall it, especially if it a rocker switch. But if there is not enough wire or if it is a toggle switch with a keyway to prevent the switch from rotating, then that is a whole different ballgame.

And I have run to what would look like a 15 minute job changing a switch that turns into a nightmare so I don’t really know how easy it is, or how much of the panel has to be dissembled just to get to the switches.

Unless Boeing issued a service bulletin who knows how much engineering and paperwork is required for approval from the FAA. And if you ever have dealt with the FAA, which I have they can be the most anal people around.

JetStar

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