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Slug71
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 2:51 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
It is big news indeed. Airbus claims this would reduce drag by 8% and eventually would save 5% on fuel consumption. The question is, when are we going to see it first on any airliner? A360? Or A322? I know it is still too early for this as it has just made its first flight.

If this blade project makes it into service around the same time as the ultra fan engine, we would have a deadly combination.


Sounds like it is geared toward a narrow body. My guess is that this could be testing for the A320 family replacement.
The test campaign is expected to go through next year with a total of 120 to 150 hours.
See the link below.

mjoelnir wrote:
This are trials. The piece tested is the outer part only. It is thought for a commuter sized frame flying slower at cruise than the A340.


And that outer part is designed to be 2/3rds the size of a narrow body wing.
See article below.

godsbeloved wrote:
I don't see this technique being applied on a commercial product just yet, since maximum velocity is around mach .70 if I am correct


The speed will increase as the test campaign progresses.
This is a very informative article that KarelXWB shared in the other thread.

https://www.aerosociety.com/news/blade- ... me-to-fly/
 
WIederling
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:02 pm

CHI87LG wrote:
ugly planes for cleaner skies and cheaper flying seems like a good bargain to me. and let's not kid around - that is a horrible looking device. but looks ain't everything.


The attached elements are 2/3 scaled wings for an A320 size NB plane.

Unsurprising it looks "stuckoed on" here.
Murphy is an optimist
 
pugman211
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 4:08 pm

There is another topic about this in tech ops. More information and pics too.
 
VSMUT
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:38 pm

CHI87LG wrote:
ugly planes for cleaner skies and cheaper flying seems like a good bargain to me. and let's not kid around - that is a horrible looking device. but looks ain't everything.


It's only a small segment of a wing concept to test/demonstrate it. The final product will most probably look very similar to this:

Image
 
redcap1962
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:07 pm

CHI87LG wrote:
ugly planes for cleaner skies and cheaper flying seems like a good bargain to me. and let's not kid around - that is a horrible looking device. but looks ain't everything.


If may look stupid, but if it works it ain' stupid!
 
Dardania
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:24 pm

parapente wrote:
I think this is pretty big news.I wonder what (assuming its successful) the timeline would be before this technology sees commercial use,As stated above it's clearly a radical change considering the wingsweep relative to conventional wings.
One must assume Boeing is also researching this (with NASA?) as it is game changing technology if it works.
The nearest I ever got to this was back in the days I flew sail planes.Huge aspect ratio's with laminar flow wings (and amazing glide angles).
However....
On a summers day if there were a lot of insects the laminar flow was easily broken .Worse (for commercial aircraft) was (can you believe it) rain droplets.They too made the wings performance deteriorate.They will of course already know this stuff and have found a solution of some sort.


Really interesting to hear real world experience with similar techniques...I was curious about what the impact of de-icing fluid would be (or maybe the future control surfaces will have the need for de-icing fluid engineered out somehow...)
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:05 pm

Anyone interested in laminar flow might find the earlier tech-ops thread ( viewtopic.php?t=776637 ) to be interesting. It was one of the more interesting tech-op threads in recent years.

KarelXWB wrote:
Here's a pretty good story on the BLADE project:

The Clean Sky 2 BLADE (Breakthrough Laminar Aircraft Demonstrator in Europe) demonstrator, was rolled out of its hangar in Tarbes in the south of France at the start of September. BLADE is a highly-modified Airbus A340 airliner and the culmination of nearly ten years of research, planning and ground tests by Airbus and its industrial and academic partners on this pan-European aerospace project. With its outer wings removed and replaced by two new panels packed with sensors, BLADE is set to study laminar flow in flight to a level of detail never seen before.

If successful, its flight tests could lead to the way to a step-change in NLF aerodynamics for civil airliners with up to 8% drag reduction for a short-range airliner. This would translate into 5% block fuel burn saving on a typical 800nm single-aisle mission. Given that millions are invested each year to improve engine fuel efficiency by an average of 1%, exploiting NLF represents a tantalising goal for the industry in helping to meeting the challeng environmental targets set by Europe’s ACARE 2020.


Full article
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/blade- ... me-to-fly/


Exactly why they say 'short-range airliner' is explained below:

Sharp-eyed observers will notice that the wing sweep of the outer test NLF wings are around 20degs, compared with 30degs for the rest of the swept wing. The reason highlights a tricky compromise for future airliner designers – optimise a wing with (shallower sweep) that maintains laminar flow at around Mach 0.75 and save fuel, or fly faster at the usual cruising speed of Mach 0.82-0.85 and see boundary layer separation as the aircraft goes faster. One solution might be hybrid laminar-flow, either passive or active, to 'suck' the airflow to the wing and keep the drag down at higher speeds. A slower, but more fuel efficient, straighter wing thus means that the first applications could be in narrowbody airliners on short-haul routes, where slower cruise speeds may not make too much of a difference compared to long-haul.


So the higher speed applications still seems to be off in the future.
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Starlionblue
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:33 pm

CHI87LG wrote:
ugly planes for cleaner skies and cheaper flying seems like a good bargain to me. and let's not kid around - that is a horrible looking device. but looks ain't everything.


A production wing wouldn't look anything like that. The tests are carried out on grafted-on outer wing sections. Everything inside the outer pylon is plain vanilla A340. The reason for the weird look is because the wing sections don't match as they would on a production aircraft.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
superbizzy73
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:15 am

I'm not a huge Airbus fan, but that demonstrator looks pretty cool! The different angles of the wing, with the less swept part outside, is definitely something I wouldn't mind seeing. (Yes, I know...is nothing but a demonstrator aircraft.)
 
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Stitch
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Thu Sep 28, 2017 12:41 am

Boeing also has their "Muppet" concepts from a decade ago for low noise and low fuel use. Something like the "Honeydew" blended delta-wing widebody was designed for very low fuel burn due to high aerodynamic efficiency.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:05 am

Karel's article was very interesting article indeed. thanks.
 
WIederling
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:23 pm

Stitch wrote:
Boeing also has their "Muppet" concepts from a decade ago for low noise and low fuel use. Something like the "Honeydew" blended delta-wing widebody was designed for very low fuel burn due to high aerodynamic efficiency.


Anything "real" ? :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Stitch
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Thu Sep 28, 2017 7:33 pm

WIederling wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Boeing also has their "Muppet" concepts from a decade ago for low noise and low fuel use. Something like the "Honeydew" blended delta-wing widebody was designed for very low fuel burn due to high aerodynamic efficiency.


Anything "real" ? :-)


No more or less "real" than the stuff VSMUT and keesje have been posting. ;)
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:02 pm

I recall a Boeing engineer telling me of a similar laminar wing test campaign on the 757 or 767 carried out many years ago. Anyone know as to what came of it?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:07 pm

Chaostheory wrote:
I recall a Boeing engineer telling me of a similar laminar wing test campaign on the 757 or 767 carried out many years ago. Anyone know as to what came of it?


That was part of the 757 EcoDemo program: http://aviationweek.com/technology/757- ... ctive-flow
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Thu Sep 28, 2017 8:23 pm

Stitch wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:
I recall a Boeing engineer telling me of a similar laminar wing test campaign on the 757 or 767 carried out many years ago. Anyone know as to what came of it?


That was part of the 757 EcoDemo program: http://aviationweek.com/technology/757- ... ctive-flow


I had the '90s, possibly '80s time frame in mind. I'm probably mistaken.
 
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DocLightning
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:34 am

I wonder how they will get over the issue of having to install control surfaces, given that the tiniest surface irregularity will disrupt the laminar flow. Not a trivial barrier to commercial application.
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Faro
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:45 pm

Any preliminary results from A's rumour mill?...a rough estimate of actual drag reduction perhaps?...

I wonder if the aircraft will investigate stall behaviour...according to Lightsaber in a previous thread, stall handling is laminar flow's one big Achilles' heel...very very delicate proposition to control stall behaviour it seems...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:21 pm

DocLightning wrote:
I wonder how they will get over the issue of having to install control surfaces, given that the tiniest surface irregularity will disrupt the laminar flow. Not a trivial barrier to commercial application.


control surfaces are at the rear.
if your laminar flow actually stays stable as far as the rear of the profile ...
you have a "luxury of a problem"

major Issue is high lift. me thinks.
You could go for BAe's Jumbolino solution : no high lift at the front :-)

next is going for variable camber at the front. i.e. bending the nose down
without hinges?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Sat Sep 30, 2017 2:47 pm

Faro wrote:
Any preliminary results from A's rumour mill?...a rough estimate of actual drag reduction perhaps?...

I wonder if the aircraft will investigate stall behaviour...according to Lightsaber in a previous thread, stall handling is laminar flow's one big Achilles' heel...very very delicate proposition to control stall behaviour it seems...

Faro

Perhaps you're thinking of the discussion on page 1 of this thread?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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Faro
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:25 pm

Yes indeed...had the impression it was nestled somewhere else...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:03 pm

WIederling wrote:
major Issue is high lift. me thinks.
You could go for BAe's Jumbolino solution : no high lift at the front :-)


Seems this is the approach being used, no?

Image

Ref: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... st-flights

Image

Ref: https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... st-flights
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has it's beaches, it's homeland and thoughts of it's own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has it's seasons, it's evenings and songs of it's own
 
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Slug71
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:13 pm

Just caught it going up for a test flight.

https://www.flightradar24.com/AIB83AI/f631d7f
 
CowAnon
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:01 am

Chaostheory wrote:
Stitch wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:
I recall a Boeing engineer telling me of a similar laminar wing test campaign on the 757 or 767 carried out many years ago. Anyone know as to what came of it?


That was part of the 757 EcoDemo program: http://aviationweek.com/technology/757- ... ctive-flow


I had the '90s, possibly '80s time frame in mind. I'm probably mistaken.

Is this what you had in mind?

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/11/scien ... -fuel.html
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Fri Feb 09, 2018 4:30 pm

CowAnon wrote:
Chaostheory wrote:
Stitch wrote:

That was part of the 757 EcoDemo program: http://aviationweek.com/technology/757- ... ctive-flow


I had the '90s, possibly '80s time frame in mind. I'm probably mistaken.

Is this what you had in mind?

http://www.nytimes.com/1990/09/11/scien ... -fuel.html


That was with suction applied.

This here solution is microforming the surface to "hold" laminar flow.
Murphy is an optimist

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