WIederling
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Mon Jun 27, 2016 6:38 am

Hmm, OK :oops:
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:06 pm

Any updates on when this will be rolled out?
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WIederling
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Re: RE: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:40 am

Faro wrote:
Quoting lightsaber (Reply 24):New CFD and flight test understanding of how to stop the spread of a stall.

I wish I could go more into the detail, but I would be violating an NDA discussing more than is commonly known.
So it seems that Airbus has been on to this proprietary technology and have duplicated it somehow? I would think there was some kind of patent protection...perhaps they purchased licence rights?

Think about the Euros being there earlier :-)
Few things that NASA can show as a real first.
( Area rule, supercritical wing profiles, Shuttle main engines ... come to mind.)
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:12 am

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:31 pm

That's one seriously sci-fi looking wing...

Is that the prototype/test A340 that Airbus 'retired' recently?
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:33 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Is that the prototype/test A340 that Airbus 'retired' recently?


Yep, that's MSN 1.
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BravoOne
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:41 pm

Gee maybe it's like the Lockheed 1649A that 1st flew in 1956?
 
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BaconButty
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:11 pm

Good photos in the La Depeche article, thanks. Fwiw the two wing sections are different designs, the starboard by GKN and the port by Saab. Some good info on the differences here:
http://aviationweek.com/greene-tweed/gk ... experiment
... the key focus for the program is whether laminar flow can be consistently achieved in operational conditions using a high-quality design that can be manufactured at high production rates.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:15 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Gee maybe it's like the Lockheed 1649A that 1st flew in 1956?

You would never have survived going M.85 with that Starliner wing. :-)

Interesting how aerodynamics have improved to get away with much less sweep than earlier wings.
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Amiga500
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:36 am

WIederling wrote:
Interesting how aerodynamics have improved to get away with much less sweep than earlier wings.


More refined aerodynamics is a part of it - but also composite spars enable a slightly lower thickness:chord ratio relative to aluminium (all other things being equal).
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:51 am

Amiga500 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
Interesting how aerodynamics have improved to get away with much less sweep than earlier wings.


More refined aerodynamics is a part of it - but also composite spars enable a slightly lower thickness:chord ratio relative to aluminium (all other things being equal).


It is not visible on this PoC but going by the A350 vs 787/777X wings
Airbus seems to have better access to profiles that, though thicker, seem to
show equal or better performance than the Boeing preferred thin profiles?
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BaconButty
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:12 am

Has anyone got any images of the GKN (starboard) wing section? All the pics I have seen are of the Saab one - just interested how the leading edge flaps look.
Down with that sort of thing!
 
Amiga500
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:32 am

WIederling wrote:
It is not visible on this PoC but going by the A350 vs 787/777X wings
Airbus seems to have better access to profiles that, though thicker, seem to
show equal or better performance than the Boeing preferred thin profiles?


Different design philosophies - and not just the high level weight vs. drag either.

The degree of use of the flap track fairings to control transonic flow (Küchemann carrot) varies between A & B - which feeds back into flap mechanical design.

As can be seen by comparing overall aircraft performance, the end result is a much of a muchness.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:29 am

Better close-up on the wing:

Image
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:33 pm

Are there ejection seats?
 
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Stitch
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:08 pm

AirlineCritic wrote:
Are there ejection seats?


No, but there is an egress plan should the need arise, I am sure.
 
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LoganTheBogan
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:17 am

Is there a reason why they chose to use an A340-300 for this test? I would have thought an A330 would be better.
Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new.
 
WPvsMW
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Re: RE: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:20 am

flipdewaf wrote:
From my work on IP the only limitation on getting a patent is that it's new and novel, if you can prove those things then you can patent it.


The real barrier to patentability is showing the invention is "non-obvious" (USPTO lingo) or has "inventive step" (the rest of the world). new = novel. typically easy to show. other requirement, "useful" (USPTO lingo) or "industrial applicability" (rest of the world), is typically easy to show. 90% of new patent applications receive a "lack of inventive step" rejection of some (or all) claims.
 
WIederling
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Re: RE: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:07 am

WPvsMW wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
From my work on IP the only limitation on getting a patent is that it's new and novel, if you can prove those things then you can patent it.


The real barrier to patentability is showing the invention is "non-obvious" (USPTO lingo) or has "inventive step" (the rest of the world). new = novel. typically easy to show. other requirement, "useful" (USPTO lingo) or "industrial applicability" (rest of the world), is typically easy to show. 90% of new patent applications receive a "lack of inventive step" rejection of some (or all) claims.



The US PTO seems to pass anything that does not fall over on its own.
This includes patents on diffuse ideas and algorithms.

This is a major issue.

Patents have turned into market denial weapons and lost their initial intention of releasing "trade secrets" for synergistic purposes.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Airbus Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:28 am

LoganTheBogan wrote:
Is there a reason why they chose to use an A340-300 for this test? I would have thought an A330 would be better.


Because they have the frame at hand ( this A340 still shows the skin graft to test the CFRP A350 hull ).

The additional engine mass hanging from the outer stations give a more stable platform for testing airflow on the outer wing section?
Murphy is an optimist
 
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keesje
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Airbus Blade Laminair Demonstrator A340 Progress

Mon Sep 25, 2017 2:18 pm

Image

- two different wingtips laminair flow technology
- comparative analyses
- first flight closing in
Image

Airbus will soon start flight testing an A340 that has been fitted with experimental laminar-flow wing sections. The effort is part of a larger EU-funded technology project, dubbed the Breakthrough Laminar Aircraft Demonstrator in Europe (BLADE), to assess the industrial feasibility of natural laminar-flow wings on future aircraft. The BLADE project represents the largest part of Airbus’s estimated €330 million ($392 million) contribution to the EU’s current Clean Sky II initiative – a multi-year program that includes other projects to advance technology for more efficient aircraft engines, helicopters and onboard systems.


http://compositesmanufacturingmagazine. ... wing-a340/
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StereoTechque
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Re: Airbus Blade Laminair Demonstrator A340 Progress

Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:48 am

Looks like they have installed wing tip tanks.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Airbus Blade Laminair Demonstrator A340 Progress

Tue Sep 26, 2017 1:50 am

StereoTechque wrote:
Looks like they have installed wing tip tanks.


It does. If they really are tip tanks perhaps this was a simpler solution than making a one-off wet wing section.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
gloom
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Re: Airbus Blade Laminair Demonstrator A340 Progress

Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:05 am

I'd rather say they want two things:
1. some sort of aero separator, so their flow is more or less unaffected
2. tank-like shape suggests they might be playing with some sort of fluid balance system, either to measure performance under different load, different angles, or to adjust for some aero effects (not really familiar how and when, so feel free to correct).

It's probably not fuel tank. I don't see any reason for that to be there.

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zeke
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Re: Airbus Blade Laminair Demonstrator A340 Progress

Tue Sep 26, 2017 7:30 am

Wouldn't be surprised if it contained laser and photographic equipment to look at the flow properties, as well as to reduce tip flow.
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:31 am

The modified A340 is making its first flight today:

https://fr24.com/AIB72AI/f00617b

Image
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WIederling
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Re: Airbus Blade Laminair Demonstrator A340 Progress

Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:42 am

Starlionblue wrote:
StereoTechque wrote:
Looks like they have installed wing tip tanks.


It does. If they really are tip tanks perhaps this was a simpler solution than making a one-off wet wing section.


I'd expect those shapes ( inboard, outboard) to guide/control airflow onto the test section more than anything else.
Maybe weightable to control flutter and dynamic response?

Even if you loose some volume at the tips, tankage on the A340/A330 is not really a starkly limited resource :-)
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Starlionblue
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Re: Airbus Blade Laminair Demonstrator A340 Progress

Tue Sep 26, 2017 11:56 am

WIederling wrote:
Starlionblue wrote:
StereoTechque wrote:
Looks like they have installed wing tip tanks.


It does. If they really are tip tanks perhaps this was a simpler solution than making a one-off wet wing section.


I'd expect those shapes ( inboard, outboard) to guide/control airflow onto the test section more than anything else.
Maybe weightable to control flutter and dynamic response?

Even if you loose some volume at the tips, tankage on the A340/A330 is not really a starkly limited resource :-)


Tankage is indeed not limited in terms of this programme. However bending relief is still bending relief. Having empty outer wing sections leads to more fatigue.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Tue Sep 26, 2017 2:07 pm

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:28 pm

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Tue Sep 26, 2017 3:50 pm

KarelXWB wrote:

Maybe its a trick of the light but it looks like there is a fair bit of "gulling" on the left wing laminar section.

Fred
Image
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Tue Sep 26, 2017 6:46 pm

Here's a pretty good story on the BLADE project:

The Clean Sky 2 BLADE (Breakthrough Laminar Aircraft Demonstrator in Europe) demonstrator, was rolled out of its hangar in Tarbes in the south of France at the start of September. BLADE is a highly-modified Airbus A340 airliner and the culmination of nearly ten years of research, planning and ground tests by Airbus and its industrial and academic partners on this pan-European aerospace project. With its outer wings removed and replaced by two new panels packed with sensors, BLADE is set to study laminar flow in flight to a level of detail never seen before.

If successful, its flight tests could lead to the way to a step-change in NLF aerodynamics for civil airliners with up to 8% drag reduction for a short-range airliner. This would translate into 5% block fuel burn saving on a typical 800nm single-aisle mission. Given that millions are invested each year to improve engine fuel efficiency by an average of 1%, exploiting NLF represents a tantalising goal for the industry in helping to meeting the challeng environmental targets set by Europe’s ACARE 2020.


Full article
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/blade- ... me-to-fly/
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Slug71
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Re: Airbus A340 Laminar Flow Demonstrator To Fly In 2017

Wed Sep 27, 2017 5:12 am

KarelXWB wrote:
Here's a pretty good story on the BLADE project:

The Clean Sky 2 BLADE (Breakthrough Laminar Aircraft Demonstrator in Europe) demonstrator, was rolled out of its hangar in Tarbes in the south of France at the start of September. BLADE is a highly-modified Airbus A340 airliner and the culmination of nearly ten years of research, planning and ground tests by Airbus and its industrial and academic partners on this pan-European aerospace project. With its outer wings removed and replaced by two new panels packed with sensors, BLADE is set to study laminar flow in flight to a level of detail never seen before.

If successful, its flight tests could lead to the way to a step-change in NLF aerodynamics for civil airliners with up to 8% drag reduction for a short-range airliner. This would translate into 5% block fuel burn saving on a typical 800nm single-aisle mission. Given that millions are invested each year to improve engine fuel efficiency by an average of 1%, exploiting NLF represents a tantalising goal for the industry in helping to meeting the challeng environmental targets set by Europe’s ACARE 2020.


Full article
https://www.aerosociety.com/news/blade- ... me-to-fly/


Very interesting! Thanks for sharing.
Sounds like this technology is aimed at the A320 family replacement.
 
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N14AZ
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A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:36 am

As they say, pictures say more than thousand words...
Image
Source: http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... fligh.html

FF started in Tarbes, landing took place in TLS.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 6:57 am

Looks pretty cool!

Let's hope the performance matches. The reduced sweep is interesting too.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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SR380
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:02 am

I am all about technology, but nowadays why don't invest into renewable energy like cryo-hydrogen to power our jet instead of saving 5% of gaz with such things?
 
jrfspa320
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:11 am

is this for the new A340NWO? (New Wing Option)...
 
wjcandee
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:11 am

SR380 wrote:
I am all about technology, but nowadays why don't invest into renewable energy like cryo-hydrogen to power our jet instead of saving 5% of gaz with such things?


Can anyone say "Hindenberg"?
 
ZEDZAG
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:24 am

SR380 wrote:
I am all about technology, but nowadays why don't invest into renewable energy like cryo-hydrogen to power our jet instead of saving 5% of gaz with such things?


Maybe because Airbus is not it energy business, at least not directly. This is the field where they benefit the most, in their field of expertise. Let another company, witch business revolves around energy, do research related to renewable energy
 
parapente
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:33 am

I think this is pretty big news.I wonder what (assuming its successful) the timeline would be before this technology sees commercial use,As stated above it's clearly a radical change considering the wingsweep relative to conventional wings.
One must assume Boeing is also researching this (with NASA?) as it is game changing technology if it works.
The nearest I ever got to this was back in the days I flew sail planes.Huge aspect ratio's with laminar flow wings (and amazing glide angles).
However....
On a summers day if there were a lot of insects the laminar flow was easily broken .Worse (for commercial aircraft) was (can you believe it) rain droplets.They too made the wings performance deteriorate.They will of course already know this stuff and have found a solution of some sort.
 
Eyad89
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 7:59 am

It is big news indeed. Airbus claims this would reduce drag by 8% and eventually would save 5% on fuel consumption. The question is, when are we going to see it first on any airliner? A360? Or A322? I know it is still too early for this as it has just made its first flight.

If this blade project makes it into service around the same time as the ultra fan engine, we would have a deadly combination.
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:12 am

wjcandee wrote:
SR380 wrote:
I am all about technology, but nowadays why don't invest into renewable energy like cryo-hydrogen to power our jet instead of saving 5% of gaz with such things?


Can anyone say "Hindenberg"?


It's not Hindenburg, that was gaseous Hydrogen. Liquid Hydrogen would require cryogenic fuel tanks, therefore reducing fuel capacity (or forcing the wings/wing box to be larger) to accommodate the thick insulation needed to keep H2 liquid. LH2 has to be stored at -423°F. That's going to require a lot of insulation, and a system whereby some of the H2 that comes out of solution is siphoned off and burned to create power, possibly to cool the rest of the fuel. (Something similar happens on board modern LNG tankers.)

The other big issue is that LH2 has a much lower energy density. I'm welcome to be corrected because these were some quick napkin figures, but Jet Fuel (an average, not a specific blend) has an average of 125,000+ BTU/US gal, while LH2 has an average of 36,200 BTU/gal.

So airliners would need more space in the wings for the extensive storage, and almost 3.5 TIMES the fuel capacity in US gallons. However, 1 gallon of LH2 only weighs 8.8% of 1 gallon of jet fuel. The energy density ratio is more favorable, giving 1 US gal LH2 29% the energy compared to 1 US gal jet fuel.

Therefore an airliner designed around LH2 as a fuel would need MUCH bigger wings and a much larger central tank.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
WIederling
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:14 am

SR380 wrote:
I am all about technology, but nowadays why don't invest into renewable energy like cryo-hydrogen to power our jet instead of saving 5% of gaz with such things?



Because that is "bullshit bingo" versus real "BLADE" savings :-)

Then aero improvements are orthogonal to propulsion research.
You need both for progress. It is not an "either or" thing.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Eyad89
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:27 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Looks pretty cool!

Let's hope the performance matches. The reduced sweep is interesting too.



I wonder how the sweep angle would be calculated now. We can't draw a straight line from the root to the tip now with this design. I also wonder what would happen to the wave drag that now we reduced the sweep angle, as more air would flow parallel to the chord line in the modified part of the wing.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:29 am

Eyad89 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Looks pretty cool!

Let's hope the performance matches. The reduced sweep is interesting too.



I wonder how the sweep angle would be calculated now. We can't draw a straight line from the root to the tip now with this design. I also wonder what would happen to the wave drag that now we reduced the sweep angle, as more air would flow parallel to the chord line in the modified part of the wing.


This are trials. The piece tested is the outer part only. It is thought for a commuter sized frame flying slower at cruise than the A340.
 
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OA940
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 10:59 am

What exactly is this?
A350/CSeries = bae
 
mjoelnir
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:17 am

OA940 wrote:
What exactly is this?


Trials on a laminar wing promising a 8% reduction in drag.
 
workhorse
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 12:19 pm

Convair 990 is back! :D
 
CHI87LG
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:51 pm

ugly planes for cleaner skies and cheaper flying seems like a good bargain to me. and let's not kid around - that is a horrible looking device. but looks ain't everything.
 
godsbeloved
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Re: A340-300 BLADE makes first flight

Wed Sep 27, 2017 1:56 pm

I don't see this technique being applied on a commercial product just yet, since maximum velocity is around mach .70 if I am correct

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