bahadir
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

Airline Simulation

Thu Aug 26, 2004 12:33 am

Am I the only one who thinks that the online version sucks for so many different reasons, including the unreliability which is a trademark of EfZed..
Earthbound misfit I
 
deltaalpha
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 1:59 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Thu Aug 26, 2004 1:21 am

I do not like Airline online. For several reasons also but I do like the software version. I do agree that lately EfZed has been completely unreliable. I can not for the life of me imagine why they would put out a release date with absolutely no way of verifying that they would indeed be able to release the product on time. A day delay maybe, even a week is reasonable but over a month? If it was my company the guy who came out with the timetable would be working somewhere else. Being on time is not there strong point. Customer service has suffered as a result of there members section being out of order as well.
There are a lot of apologists out there for them. They DO have a great product. I play it often especially when I travel. I would recommend the game to anyone who asks.
Sorry EfZed just the way I feel.
Delta Alpha
Common sense is not all that common
 
aviationwiz
Posts: 882
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:20 pm

RE: Airline Simulation

Thu Aug 26, 2004 4:23 pm

Great product, including Airline Online, which I love, but Efzed is unreliable, especially timetables. It's also just about impossible to criticize Efzed on their own forum (which has been down for the past week or so) because if you aren't screamed at by suck-up's, your post will just be deleted by a mod, and give you a warning for break some odd rule.

Again, great product, but not reliable. Just saying it as it is.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
bahadir
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: Airline Simulation

Wed Sep 01, 2004 11:17 am

I had enough of these people!!! Last quarter I ended up losing $10mil on the game. I had no idea why until the webmaster got back to me and said "you paid your employees not enough" .. Huh?

Here are my more pet peeves about this "online simulation"..

- Whenever I try to purchase an airline, it comes back with message "The manufacturer cannot produce that many" even though I order 1 of them while so many different airlines are ordering airliners like crazy.

- I cannot get more landing slots for some popular airports even though they said "from time to time more landing slots will be made available" .. When? Do I have to live by the computer ?

and to top everything off ,

they disabled the forum where I was exchanging ideas with other users about running an airline, about the "hidden" rules that EfZed never published to Joe Public..

Is there a Better business Bureau that I can complain in Down Under?

Earthbound misfit I
 
deltaalpha
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 1:59 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Wed Sep 01, 2004 12:30 pm

No I do not think they have a BBB. I have not had those problems. The forum they had been threatening to close a long time because they do not like descent, criticism or any other kind of non positive feedback. It is their forum so I guess they can close it when they want. They probably have kept it closed because of the extreme tardiness and their inability to keep to their own schedule with regards to the release of their latest addition of 5.1. This is quite frustrating for the customers and if the forum was open they would be constantly blasted by people like me who think that these delays while I am sure they are necessary are a lot like teasing a monkey in a cage with a cookie then jerking it back.
Common sense is not all that common
 
bahadir
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: Airline Simulation

Wed Sep 01, 2004 9:59 pm

I found the ombudsman office of Victoria and will file a complaint with them.
http://www.ombudsman.vic.gov.au/

Funny thing is I had to do a lot of research on the .net to find the company address. Even after hours of research I was able to find a Po Box address.

I will also research a government agency that controls or legislates lotteries or rewards provided by a company. This period of AO offers AU$1,000 worth of travel certificates and this should hold them to much higher standards.

Earthbound misfit I
 
deltaalpha
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 1:59 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:27 pm

Ok, there you go they jerked the cookie away again! Man oh man. That is one screwed up company. If their product did not have so much promise and wasn't so much fun to play I would never buy again. Lets just hope they stop teasing my monkey!!!! 9-p
Common sense is not all that common
 
OV735
Posts: 832
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:49 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Thu Sep 02, 2004 1:51 pm

I agree, Efzed has failed keeping up with their release dates, but then again, where's my hurry? I mean, I've got all the time in the world. It's a fun simulation and I'm willing to wait for it, without feeling the need to go and make things even worse by complaining somewhere.

By the way, it still says on the forum opening page that it is closed temporarily. I think they're just protecting themselves from another "Hurricane Brandon" until they finally release v5.1.
 
LastBaron
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:55 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:15 am

I have been playing Airline OnLine from Game 1 and have become friends with the company's founder. A run of bad luck and various problems out of their control has plagued them from the start of the current game, No. 5, the first in their tournament. For the tiny company they are and with the very limited resources they have, they have always done an excellent job at keeping up with their software and releasing updates, newsletters and patches, but for some people here and in the (currently still closed) forum, that doesn't every seem good enough.

I wonder what those same people would do if they ran to MicroSoft every time they had a bug or an anomaly occur in one of the behemoth's many bug-ridden products... MS charges $35 routinely just to listen to you. I guess my point is that Efzed is providing a lot of support for the initial purchase price, which is very low.

Efzed, on the other hand, could do itself a favor and prominently paste "Work in Progress" or some such on the splash page for Airline Online, which would at least indicate to the many newcomers that this is by no means a perfect product, but rather an evolving product.

In the current game, the underlying strategy and plan to try to prevent a handful of players from dominating the game early one (as has been the case in each game thus far) backfired again; a group of about six players currently has managed to hog so many slots at almost every airport that the game is now in a nearly unplayable state. One player in particular, whom I suspect of either being an unemployed ex-airline employee or a bored teen, has managed to suck the lifeblood out of almost every airport in the game (Blue Star) and is most unpleasant to boot. Too bad the forum is closed, or he would probably get an earful. I have asked EfZed to fix this situation; let's see if they do, or they, too, like many of the current players, are on "autopilot" for reasons unknown.
 
dan330
Posts: 433
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2001 12:52 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:05 pm

OK I can see the point made above, they do a good job with the updates etc but the point is with this release date for version 5.1 which is just getting out of order.

The initial release date for V5.1 was April!!!
They finally made a decision to release last week but had to put it back again.

Since then their page has said it will be released today. They have only just chaged that this morning to say it won't be released today after all, they must have known a day or two ago that they were'nt going to make it so why wait until today when everybody will be loging on expecting to download it only to dissappoint them on the day it is supposed to be available. This is the 3rd occasion I've logged on expecting to be able to download only to find yet another message about another delay.

I was looking forward to have a go on that today as I have the day off but logged on only to find yet again it won't be possible! If they'd have changed that a day or two ago I wouldn't have had the expectation of using it today.

While I agree they do a good job with updates and the game is very good when you can work it, it is completely unacceptable to keep giving out these dates and then dissappionting people again and again when they are not released on time. One or two deferrals is one thing but this is out of order!
 
bahadir
Posts: 1281
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: Airline Simulation

Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:01 am

I am not just talking about the release of V5.1.

Since I started to post my frustration with EfZed this is what happened:

- I ended up with a loss of $20mils due to the flaw in their logic. Simply put I paid my employees very low wages and EfZed claimed that they went to strike. Well, that would have been OK if they didn't charge me millions of $$ of fuel.. If a company goes on strike, the airplanes will not burn gas, will it..

- I pointed out the problem to support and told them few other people have been exposed to this issue.. The response I got from Priya, the webmaster is "Well, you didn't pay them enough, so they went on strike".. Then I said "there is no place where is says people went on srike, and I don't feel good about asking the questions to you and play the guess game". I also expressed my frustration with the closure of forums where I learn a lot from the other people.. I will paste a response when I am writing from my own 'puter so that you can see how professional they are..

- Since then I was threatened to take a legal action against because of these postings on airliners.net which is an open forum and there is the 1st amandment..

Here are the problems I have with EfZed :

- For all those people who are saying "I know the owners, and they are nice guys, etc. etc. ... " I am sure that I wouldn't have a problem with having couple of Amstels with Frank in person. BUT, when you are charging money and promissing awards then you have to hold yourself to a better standard.

- I own an IT consulting company where I deliver projects to clients all over N. America and if I manage a project like they manage their AO or AI 5.1, then I would never find a client again. I am fully aware that most of the projects are not on time or within budget, but when you are as bad as EfZed, you are doomed to fail..

- Like many other bad company EfZed is doing two things to make money :
a. Exploit passion of people for airline simualtion
b. Placing lots of ads promissing the world and delivering nothing..
Although in the long run they will fail because they will run out of people who are willing to pay $$$ to them with this level of customer satisfaction (or lack there of)

- I wouldn't mind paying $30 instead of $20 if the product delivered what it promissed and they were a bit more respectful to their clients..

- Threatening to sue the people is a very cheap and dirty trick.

- The smaller and less sofisticated simulations (like the Airpro 2000 at cruiseferry.de) are much more reliable and never felt the need to contact them for any problem..

That's all for now..
Earthbound misfit I
 
anstar
Posts: 2864
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:35 am

Airline Simulation Version 5.1 was originally supposed to be released in april, so technically it is a 5 month wait.

Crazy.

If you don't have the resource, then hire it!
 
usairways85
Posts: 3536
Joined: Fri Nov 16, 2001 11:59 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Wed Sep 08, 2004 6:34 am

April was only the rumored release date. The official release date was sometime late June. So its close to being really 3 months late. Now the fact that they've pushed it back further and further doesn't annoy me that much, because I ultimately want this game to be the best it can be when i get it. What annoys me is the fact that they have set about 5 or 6 dates as to when they are going to release it and have not stuck to any of them. Now they said Monday that they would inform us further today and still nothing has been posted. Like i would have rather them tell us back in August that they needed a month or two to make it perfect rather than set 3 release dates between now and the beginning of August and not stick to any of them.
 
LastBaron
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:55 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:50 am

Very interesting points, all.

While I have been a staunch defender of Efzed, it would seem that lately things have been getting more and more out of hand over there - who knows why.

However, ANstar's comment above - "If you don't have the resource, then hire it!" - is arrogant and entirely unfair and betrays a complete lack of understanding of basic business principles - before you can just keep hiring new resources, there has to be some income with which to do so... Efzed is a tiny company with very low profit margins and I am sure they are not just rolling in lolly and laughing all the way to the bank. Their budget is likely stretched tighter than a snare drum and each time there is a fault or problem with either A5.1 or AO, the bubble comes perilously close to bursting altogether... those are the realities in small business these days.

The notion many here would appear to be laboring under, that there is such a thing as "bugfree" software, is also foolish - it doesn't exist anywhere! Even notoriously cautious companies like Ahead and SAP issue patches and "updates" on a regular basis because this stuff is all written and designed by humans, and humans make mistakes, no matter what precautions are taken...

As far as this or any other Forum's being protected by the 1st Amendment, dear Bahadir, you make another faulty assumption there. Any forum, whether government-owned or privately operated (as this one is, too) on any website anywhere is not protected by the 1st Amendment to the U.S. Constitution. [And the good people from Airliners.net will be the first to point this out to you if you post things they don't like here, as I know from first hand experience.] How did you get the idea that this is a public forum? This site is owned and operated by someone who originally conceived of the idea and went to the trouble of setting it up, paying the registration fee, paying the people who designed it, etc. Regardless of whether that may have been a for profit company (usually found to own the .com websites) or a non-profit organization (.ord) or anyone else (.net, .tv, etc. etc.) someone somewhere is responsible for the site and it is not a protected free-speech environment. If you don't believe me, don't take my word for it - do a little reading on the web about protection of free speech on the web and you will see that there is and has been an ongoing debate about that topic for over a decade now, which remains unresolved... courts and verdicts have gone both ways and nothing is even remotely close to a final decision or finding...

Finally, customer service: Were you polite and forthcoming when you exchanged/spoke with Priya, or did you use the snotty tone your posts above show? Paying for something does not give you the right to treat people like trash or be discourteous. As someone once told me, the customer is king, but only as long as s/he behaves like royalty...

On the other hand, I am growing a little impatient myself with the latest round of mishaps at AO - now the results for the last batch apparently went awry and they "restored," except that, at least in my case (and I'm sure in many others' too), the restore was less than complete and currently I am mysteriously missing $5.6 million in funds and various rouutes I had set up after the disaster batch-processing have vanished... even though at least my planes have all reappeared...

Basically, I think I will switch to "autopilot" for the rest of this game and wait for the next game and hope it is better. Chances are, it will be. Instead of complaining about the darkness, light a candle... or go outside into the daylight (my choice in this case). If it isn't, I can still go look for other software...

 
vsfullthrottle
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 3:58 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:13 pm

What online airline are you guys taking about???

VSFT
 
OV735
Posts: 832
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2004 8:49 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:24 pm

VSFullThrottle, check out http://www.airlinesimulation.com.
 
anstar
Posts: 2864
Joined: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Thu Sep 09, 2004 5:00 am

Efzed are obviously have a resourcing issue. Whether that is not enough developers/programmers or just that the ones they have aren't that great, there is still an issue.

They have continually delayed this release (and every previous relase has been delayed for some reason). Sooner or later your customers will walk. I'm sure that in the future a competitor will open up shop, hire the proper staff and deliver on their promises. They are fortunate that they have a monopoly on this market at the moment but they wont have that position forever.

Sometimes you gotta spend money to make money. If they had of had the proper resource to get this game out, they'd be having more income from new customers/existing customers coming in.
 
LastBaron
Posts: 269
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 9:55 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:02 pm

ANstar, you are - simply put - way off base! Airlinesimulation/Efzed does not have a monopoly on the market. There are several other games available, which you would know if you had scrolled up in this very thread or looked around in the rest of this topic area. Of those games that do currently exist and are not mere prototypes, Airlinesimulation is by default the most realistic and best. This means that this tiny and highly-specialized market segment is either underserved or simply is incapable of sustaining a client base large enough to yield better growth and return on investment and is therefore unattractive to many companies seeking to develop new games. Were this not the case, you would have seen one of the gaming giants such as EA Games or even Microsoft go after the market by now and push aside small houses like Efzed and the few others on the playing field.
Often those of us entrenched in the wonderful world of airline hobbies/sims forget just how "exclusive" (read: tiny) a group we really belong to.
As stated, there are several other games in various stages of (stalled?) development, but most of those companies have already learned (as would you if you were to try) that a large number of other factors and influences besides "resources" play a role - qualified personnel and programmers, operating and r&d bankrolls, marketing, investors, etc. etc.
Again, your answer above was overly simplistic (reminding me of the old Benny Hill skits in which the solution to various problems was always "put more men on the job!"). I suspect it stems from your frustration at the delays and frustration you feel towards Efzed. This does not change the fact that in software industry (in which I work, by the way), and in others, such delays are often unavoidable and caused by a myriad of reasons, not just "too few resources." Patience is a virtue, and good things usually are worth the wait, even if there are bugs in new versions and delays in even getting them, I find.
By the way, you always have the option of opening your own software company and producing a rival/superior product if you think you can. Others here arhave tried and failed or are still trying and finding it a daunting task...
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3133
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:49 pm

I don't mind them delaying it once, Hell nobody can get everything right. A second delay is not that bad, I mean shit happens eh. But when you delay something as much as they have with Airline 5.1 it really is not a good thing to do.

I found sofar that they have had their problems, but overall its a pretty good product. But with v5.1 experiencing this many delays, I have to say that my respect for the company has gone from an average amount to almost nothing. If you can't get it exactly on time, then thats fine; but this whole delay after delay after delay thing is really starting to get rediculus. I'm not asking for them to be perfect, but they can do better than this. As much as I like the game, I figure if they dont get it together by this time next week I might just ask for my money back, and add another name to the unsatisfied costumer list.




CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
MarBergi
Posts: 179
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:56 pm

RE: Airline Simulation

Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:56 am

I ordered airline %.1 about a month ago and contacted them yesterday (8th). I got an e-mail reply saying that it should be shipped tomorrow (10th) and that I should get it in 14-21 days. Is this normal because while I'm patient I still think waiting nearly two months for a game is abit ridiculous, but by the sounds of things there are people out there waiting longer. I think a call to VISA might be happening shortly and by the sounds of things I will not be the only one.
 
deltaalpha
Posts: 153
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2001 1:59 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:44 am

LastBaron is right in several respects. Other company's (the big ones usually) do not give a hoot about what you want. For them it is all about mass sales. But I think where he is missing the boat on peoples feelings isn't that the product was delayed but that the delays were coupled with release dates. I do not think these folks (myself included) are being that hard on EfZed on those matters. As for AO I have not played since the beginning of AO and have no informed opinion about the latest problems. He is quite correct about this forum and others regarding free speech. But for Bahadir and his problems with EfZed particularly with being threatened by legal action I hardly think what he said is worthy of such threats. I think he may have been rough with Priya as all my correspondence with her and EfZed has been quite nice and cordial. Lastly I believe that Airline is a game with promise if the people continue to buy it and the publishers continue with their past attention to customers and their feelings and opinions.
Common sense is not all that common
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Wed Sep 22, 2004 10:45 am

(Still working on the first mass-market, most accurate, detailed, involved product... we are stalled with funding at the moment but will know more come November.)
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
Aviadvigatel
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 25, 2004 3:23 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:56 am

Perhaps I am getting paranoid since turning thirty, but after I posted a negative thread on here about Airline Online, my 'company' started making big losses - coincidence perhaps.....
I found it strange though, since there was no extra competition over previous quarters in the game, when I had been making a profit - if anything, passenger loads should have been higher as I had dropped prices modestly. All the slots at my two airport hubs were sold, but ticket income HALVED - on some of my routes with no competition, there were 2 passengers!
I have grown fed up with it, and rather than waste hours of my time trying to retrieve the situation and stay in the top 15, I have let it go bankrupt. Don't think I'll bother again.
 
Thomas_Jaeger
Posts: 2200
Joined: Fri Apr 26, 2002 5:35 pm

RE: Airline Simulation

Sat Sep 25, 2004 5:29 am

For the German speaking guys here, check out http://www.airlinesim.de, the final beta version is going live next Friday.
Swiss aviation news junkie living all over the place
 
CanadianNorth
Posts: 3133
Joined: Sat Aug 24, 2002 11:41 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Sat Sep 25, 2004 2:32 pm

Has anyone else reached the point where they are ready to throw their computer in the back of the truck and drive it out to a cliff and throw it off next time they get one of them damn "Run-time error... ...Automation error" messages???



CanadianNorth
What could possibly go wrong?
 
InnocuousFox
Posts: 2556
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 1:30 am

RE: Airline Simulation

Sun Sep 26, 2004 12:01 am

I just find it fascinating that people would release a program in that state. Don't they actually PLAY their own game once or twice before releasing an update?
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!

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