intothinair
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:05 pm

Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 5:34 pm

Hello everyone
I have had fs2004 since about 1 month now, and I am curious what the most challenging airport is, to land on?
For me, it would be St. Barthelemy in Guadeloupe, I haven't managed to land it there yet, has anyone, I guess so.
Any harder airports to land on?
Any replies would be helpful.


Cheers, Konstantin G.
 
justplanecrazy
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:26 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:14 pm

Have you tried Innsbruck.Great airport.
your pilots today on this 747 flight are captain oliver hardy and assisting will be FO stan laurel.Have a safe flight
 
IanatSTN
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 2:27 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 6:42 pm

Give SABA, a go, you can probably hit the runway without too many problems, just try and stop on the 1000ft runway before rolling off the edge into the sea! You can fly there in 10/15mins from SXM or indeed St. Barthelemy, just check your GPS.

Cheers,
Ian.
Ian@STN ::
 
intothinair
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:05 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 7:12 pm

Haha, yeah, Saba, I've heard of it, I'll try landing it with a Cessna, with 2%fuel and no payload, maybe then I've got a chance.
I'll try Innsbruck as well, sure it'll be challenging taking off and landing in the Alps.
Thanks for that Justplanecrazy and Ianatstn
Hope to hear some more replies.

Cheers, Konstantin G. Big grin
 
justplanecrazy
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:26 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 8:41 pm

Can you find a more challenging a/p than MDCZ?
your pilots today on this 747 flight are captain oliver hardy and assisting will be FO stan laurel.Have a safe flight
 
AR1300
Posts: 1686
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 1:22 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Mon Mar 28, 2005 11:26 pm

Try taking off from SFO 1R and landing in Oackland with a fully laden 744...I tried, but in the turn around to one of the runways I ended up back in SFO, And I was happy thinking that I landed in Oackland, when I realized, ''xxxxx contact San Fransisco ground at xxx.xxxx'' ....LOL.  Smile
SFO is not a hard one, but I ''harded it up''.  Wink

Mike
You are now free to move about the cabin
 
komododx
Posts: 1734
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:40 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:43 am

Try Couchrevel (or however you spell, too lazy to look it up). Also, in real life MZL or SKMZ (Manizales - La Nubia, Colombia) is very hard. Only ATR-42's and F-50's can make it there, but they must circle through the mountains to get on final. Of course, I have noticed FS in Colombia has all the mountains at 1/3 of the original altitude, so it might not be as hard.

Stefano
I'm homeless and unemployed
 
gg190
Posts: 158
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 7:25 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:51 am

Try Bolzano in the Alps in northern Italy
 
Arniepie
Posts: 1429
Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2005 11:00 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 9:25 am

I know there is a difficult one in Norway way up north not far from the Northcape, it's in a bay and has a short runway with an offset approach.
I believe ENHV is the code for it.

If you want to fly to it in MSFS there is some good freeware scenery available for all of the interesting Norwegian airstrips(+50 locations), there are a lot of difficult airports in Norway (fsnordic.net or norwegianairports.com, I believe)
[edit post]
 
Cathay744
Posts: 120
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 3:06 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:32 am

Try SESM its located in a volcano. Thats probably the hardes airport in FS2004.
The Only Queen of the Skies 747.
 
PapaNovember
Posts: 461
Joined: Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:07 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:15 pm

Every airport is challenging for me......
 
flymia
Posts: 6840
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 12:28 pm

SBH is hard I done it a few times in a Cessna 411! A Cessna Caravan is a piece of cake after landing a twin turbo prop there.
Inburnswick is good for a big jet. At night it is very difficult.
Couchrevel It very hard since one runway is right after a huge mountain and the other is blocked by a tree.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 1:56 pm

If you want to spice up your approaches, may I recommend:

KASE- Aspen/Pitkin Co. Airport

Runway 33 Left Base  Smile (HINT: Using the backcourse & DBL VOR will make you a good neighbor and avoid noise-sensitive areas, in addition to providing some stability before the final turns)

TNCM- St. Maarten/Princess Juliana International Airport

Runway 27 Left Base (No straight-ins!!!! Kai-Tak did not have a straight-in to Runway 13, and neither should the approach to this runway. Utilizing the SXM VOR prior to the final turns may provide some stability before the final turns). Try this in the heavies!

I wouldn't mind seeing some people try this and post screenshots.
 
intothinair
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:05 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 5:04 pm

Thanks a lot for that info.
I'll try these airports over the next couple of days.
An airport located in a volcano, mmmm, didn't know that existed, but it does, super!!!!!
Any more comments are welcome!!!!!

Konstantin G.
 
LHR27C
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2004 3:49 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 10:51 pm

I would say the aircraft carrier off the coast of SAN, if you call it an airport  Smile.

Oliver
Once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned forever skyward
 
justplanecrazy
Posts: 528
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2003 11:26 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Mar 29, 2005 11:34 pm

MDCZ is in a hole in the ground,its almost underground
your pilots today on this 747 flight are captain oliver hardy and assisting will be FO stan laurel.Have a safe flight
 
trijetfan1
Posts: 1098
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 5:29 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:28 am

Well this one may not be really hard, but Scatsta in the Orkney Inslands(i think) is a challenging approach but a really fun one too. Theres a tall hill right infront of the runway. Theres a 5550 ft runway. I love doing Wick-Scatsta, a nice short flight on a BA A320.
Earned PPL June 26, 2007
 
bongo
Posts: 1783
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2003 5:32 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:13 am

Try Lukla in Nepal...you can make nice flights over the Himalayas, and to land on this airport is quite challenging
MDE: First airport in the Americas visited by the A380!
 
komododx
Posts: 1734
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:40 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:59 am

Try TIV (Tivat - Serbia & Montenegro)

ATC Will hold you at 7500ft until about 9 miles out... and the airport is at sea level! Just finished a BEG-TIV flight this morning on a Macedonian F-100... best FS flight ever!

Stefano
I'm homeless and unemployed
 
komododx
Posts: 1734
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:40 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:33 am

To add to my post above,

It was actually a Montenegro Airlines, not Macedonian.

Check out the Screenshot thread v19 and you'll see the shots of my flight

Stefano
I'm homeless and unemployed
 
aviationwiz
Posts: 882
Joined: Thu Apr 01, 2004 7:20 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 3:33 pm

Give NZQN, Queenstown, New Zealand a shot!
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
ZKSUJ
Posts: 6814
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:33 pm

Innsbruk is great. Also try SXM. Not bad
 
gkirk
Posts: 23349
Joined: Thu Jun 15, 2000 3:29 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 9:00 pm

Bournemouth is fairly tricky  Wink  Silly
When you hear the noise of the Tartan Army Boys, we'll be coming down the road!
 
intothinair
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:05 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:13 pm

i'll try all these over the next couple of weeks, i'm sure they will be challenging, i've just tried SESM, hard, almost impossible to get out of the volcano. I've also tried Innsbruck, amazing scenery.
Thanks for all the replies, looks like i'll be busy with fs2004 for the next weeks to try out these airports.
More replies are very welcome.
Oh yes, i recommend Saba as well. St. Barthelemy is also hard to land on.
I'll try to find some more challenging airports.



Cheers, Konstantin G.
 
antiuser
Posts: 646
Joined: Thu May 27, 2004 9:43 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:21 pm

SDU (SBRJ) is a tough one... you have to get the touchdown just right or you end up in the water. It's especially challenging when you make the approach from the South, as you have to go around the Sugar Loaf mountain.
Oh, and there's no ILS.
Azzurri Campioni del Mondo!
 
777DadandJr
Posts: 1484
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 7:37 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:29 pm

Tried SESM last night. Geez! What a ride. I tried with the Cessna. Couldn't get out of the hole. Kept stalling. More Power! Managed to climb out with the King Air 350. But, I had to climb nearly straight up! I didn't find landing as challenging though. You just cut power to idle and cruise over the edge then point her straight down towards the end of the rwy and go at it. You do pick up alot of speed on the way down, but what a ride!
Seriously though, that can't be real, can it? I mean, who would build an airport in the bottom of a hole?

Keep flying!

Russ
My glass is neither 1/2 empty nor 1/2 full, rather, the glass itself is twice as big as it should be.
 
User avatar
mighluss
Posts: 965
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 12:11 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:32 pm

anybody tried Girdwood (AQY), in Alaska? it's a long time since I tried last, but I remember that is sorrounded by mountains very close to the rwy. It's not as difficult as SESM (for example), but funny anyway!
Miquel.
 
UA772IAD
Posts: 1269
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:43 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Mar 30, 2005 11:34 pm

I think Kahului, Maui (OGG/PHOG) is pretty difficult to manever a 777 into. Espeically if you do the "real approach", downwind U-Turn. I also think DCA and LGA are challenging.
 
baw716
Posts: 1461
Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:02 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:50 pm

I've done the NDB02 approach at SBRJ, downwind leg 1000ft, heading 200, start your turn just after the hill. You should be at 800ft going over the beach in front of Sugar Loaf heading 080, continuing left turn rolling onto course 020 at 400ft at 1 mile to TDZE02. You should be fully configured and at your Vref +5 (landing speed) + 10kts before you start the turn (gear down, flap40, autobrakemax).
The PF has to be heads up all the way through the turn, the PNF must be calling the speed and the winds so the PF has the correct information to apply or reduce power. On touchdown, get the nosewheel down asap and apply full reverse, full autobrake, full toebrake, get to under 60 kts by TDZE rwy20....you will be able to come to full stop just prior to end of runway.

OK. The worst approach is still in South America. La Paz, Bolivia, to be exact.
I will try to get the plate and then put it on the thread. You will see that it is particularly awful. More figure eights coming down over the runway, each time lower and the last approach leg is a 45% inbound leg to 400ft, then right to rwy heading, then down to runway. Speed on final is very high, about 180 kts. Why? Runway elevation: 13,840 feet. Runway length: 15,000ft, terrain at one end: 2,500 ft cliff, down.

YUK!

If anyone can top that, go for it and I'll fly it.
baw716
David L. Lamb, fmr Area Mgr Alitalia SFO 1998-2002, fmr Regional Analyst SFO-UAL 1992-1998
 
intothinair
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:05 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Fri Apr 01, 2005 6:11 pm

I've tried most of these airports now, for me the hardest:
Taking off: SESM by way, almost impossible getting out of the volcano.
Landing: Still St. Barthelemy, over that hill and then straight down, HARD!!
Thanks for all these replies.
I've had fs2004 since a month now, and have just managed to take of and land an Bombardier learjet 45 for the first time, the props I've managed to fly quite good with already.
My first flight with a jet was from Wiesbaden to FRA, 8 minutes.
My second one which I just did was from Butterworth to Penang, where I live.
I'd love to post some screenshots, how do I do that?
Thanks for any replies.

Cheers, Konstantin G.
 
komododx
Posts: 1734
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 4:40 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 4:52 am

Konstantin,

Ok, here is the easy way to post screenies without editing too much.

1. Go to Avsim or FlightSim and look for a program called FSScreen and download it
2. Run FSScreen
3. Run FS
4. Take as many shots as you want by pressing the Prnt Scrn button, next to the Scroll Lock and Pause|Break buttons
5. End your flight and go to the folder where you installed FSScreen (ie. C:Program FilesFSScreen)
6. Open up the shots with MS Paint
7. Since they should be in *.bmp format, go to File->Save As... and save them as *.jpg
8. Press Ctrl+w and skew them to roughly 50-60% of their original size
9. Go to Photobucket and get an account (FREE!). Use the "tag" url and paste it here

Hope this helps

Stefano
I'm homeless and unemployed
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 11:08 am

SESM and other airports like that aren't in "volcanoes" in real life. Those airports are scenery glitches, where the airport's altitude (or sorrounding scenery) does not match the actual altitude. There's several airports like this in FS. I remember Zacapu in Mexico had this glitch. I don't remember the code, but in Iran there was one that was inverted, the sorrounding scenery was at sea level, but the airport was in a 5000 ft high perfectly square mesa.

 twocents 
 
planemad
Posts: 510
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 9:35 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Sat Apr 02, 2005 8:07 pm

I have just flown a 737 out of MDCZ at light weight. I was feet away from mountains!!

Sam D.  Smile
 
JAM747
Posts: 524
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:17 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Sun Apr 03, 2005 6:54 am

It depends on which type of aircraft you fly . I have flown the B747-400 around the world. the most difficult landings were:
ASIA : Japan Narita with a south west approach going over the mountains,
EUROPE : Spain , Madrid coming from Paris , another mountain aand steep decent, also Lisbon was also tricky
SOUTH AMERICA: Had the most challenging especially at night , GRU Sao Paulo Brazil going north to south approach, Santiago de Chile, La Paz Bolivia, Quito Equador,

North America so far did not have any that was really challenging and I have not been to Africa yet. I am currently flying a B777 from South America and will go around the world to airports which I did not cover before. Hope to try Kai Tak. I am bad in remembering the Airport Codes that is why I use the city names. I wonder how realistic these FS planes behave compared to the ones in real life.
 
Eduardo Lepe
Posts: 167
Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 5:56 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Sun Apr 03, 2005 7:42 am

Try this airports:

LOWI
MMMX
TNCM
LPMA
LICR (Kai Tak Style)
SLLP landing runway 10 in a hot day with a B727 or take off 50% fuel with a B727
YPAD with cross wind
SBRJ
MGGT landing at night Runway 09
VRMM
VRMG
VNKT (Day or Night it is always a challenge)
LXGB

Those are all that I can remember, I know those airports by heart, and they are always nice to land at.
You can try also Kai Tak VHHX which can ge found at RW on 377

This is not a tricky airport but I like it very much you should try it also:
NVVW Nectar Double Victor whiskey

Have fun  Smile
Best Regards!!! Eduardo Lepe.
 
DeltaWings
Posts: 1234
Joined: Fri Aug 13, 2004 4:06 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Apr 05, 2005 12:20 am

NOTHING- is worse then landing in Shell Mera, Ecuador. The airport is basicly this hole in the ground, about 1000 feet down.


~DeltaWings
Homer: Marge, it takes two to lie. One to lie and one to listen.
 
Demoose
Posts: 1891
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2001 8:06 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Apr 05, 2005 1:26 am

Just done a visual approach into Funchal r/w 5 (LPMA) with a Thomas Cook 752, great challenge and thankfully i managed to pull off one of my best landings yet. Don't think I would have done such a good job if i'd had a strong crosswind though.

Mark
Take a ride...fly across the sky
 
dba4u
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2005 7:53 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Apr 05, 2005 4:18 am

You defiently have to check out Paro (VQPR, i guess...), Bhutan.
It was a stop on the 2004A worldtour of the IVAO organisation and it simply rocked... The airport is surrounded by VERY high mountains and equipped with a very short runway. Nevertheless a A319 can make it into there...


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Photo © Poowin Bunyavejchewin
View Large View Medium
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Photo © Poowin Bunyavejchewin



Now this airport is kinda challenging...

Will post some FS screenshots tomorrow...
 
Lemmy
Posts: 243
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2004 8:40 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Tue Apr 05, 2005 5:05 am

I've been trying to get a 737 in and out of Paro (without doing anything really wacky) for a while now, but no luck. I read an account of some test flights Boeing did with a 737 BBJ a while back, and it involved some 180 degree turns inside the valley. There's no way I could pull that off in FS. Also, the terrain in FS9 forces you to follow an impossiby steep glidepath. Maybe someone else has more luck?
I am a patient boy ...
 
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TheRedBaron
Posts: 3081
Joined: Tue Mar 29, 2005 6:17 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Wed Apr 06, 2005 1:33 pm

Request a precision radar aproach on Katmandu at night in a storm, with a 737-800.....enough to keep you busy like the energizer bunny
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
intothinair
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:05 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:11 pm

Thanks for all these replies
Try landing a plane at any airport with 0.1 km visibility, that is hard.

Cheers, Konstantin
 
ZKSUJ
Posts: 6814
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Sun Apr 10, 2005 7:13 pm

I did a 744 flight to McMurdo Base in Anartica, very interesting approach
 
trekster
Posts: 4319
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 2:47 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Thu May 26, 2005 5:57 pm

SESM is easy. AFTER 10 crashes. u take off with full flaps asap from the runway, get some height, then do a sharp right (i think)turn and spiral up, follow the curve of the mountain. You can do it in the small props, and maybe the 737 if ya luckly. My mate though did manage to get a lear out straight
Where does the time go???
 
ZKSUJ
Posts: 6814
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 5:15 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Thu May 26, 2005 6:55 pm

Ok, Try taking the 744 into McMurdoch Base in Antartica, I mentioned above it was an interesting approach, but I did not mention that if you are not careful, the aircraft will skid off the runway.
Also try Kathmandu with a 744, very nice. Have to land on the numbers like at SXM due to shortish runway.
 
intothinair
Posts: 391
Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:05 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Thu May 26, 2005 7:13 pm

Quoting Trekster (Reply 42):
SESM is easy. AFTER 10 crashes. u take off with full flaps asap from the runway, get some height, then do a sharp right (I think)turn and spiral up, follow the curve of the mountain

Exactly the way I get out of SESM.
Thanks for that extra feedback TREKSTER and ZKSUJ.

Cheers, Konstantin G.
 
fuffla
Posts: 381
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2004 8:41 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Thu May 26, 2005 7:39 pm

Give ZQN a go,

Flew there (in real life) in an ANZ 733 and we weaved through the valley in our descent. It is quite scary to look out both sides of the aircraft and see The Remarkables and Coronet Peak on either side of you.


View Large View Medium
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Photo © Dario Crusafon - Iberian Spotters



View Large View Medium
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Photo © Dario Crusafon - Iberian Spotters

 
mandargb
Posts: 195
Joined: Thu Mar 29, 2001 8:00 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Fri May 27, 2005 4:19 pm

I will suggest Innsbruck (LOWI) in Austria.
The default atc will give you a pretty baad approach on IFR.
It will bring you down to 11000 and then will tell you (almost dive down).
It becomes challenging if you happen to be commanding a 757 say or even 737.
Try visual approach (study the terrain first)

Second one I will suggest is Kathmandu in Nepal.
This also is goo challenge.
 
phatfarmlines
Posts: 1253
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 12:06 pm

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 10:21 am

A new freeware scenery for Libreville International Airport in Gabon has been recently released. There is a mountain in front of runway 16, but there is an ILS to the runway. You get pretty close to the mountain and enbankment.
 
QANTASforever
Posts: 5794
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Sun Jun 05, 2005 9:18 pm

You guys should give Gibraltar a try. Remember, you can't just fly over Spain to the west to land on the runway. You have to go through the straights, turn north into the Spanish bay to the west of GIB, then make an ultra hard right turn onto the runway - BLOODY IMPOSSIBLE!

QFF
Fighting for the glory of the Australian Republic.
 
UAL747
Posts: 6725
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 1999 5:42 am

RE: Most Challenging Airport To Land On, In FS?

Mon Jun 06, 2005 6:33 am

La Paz is horrible taking off or landing even in a narrowbody jet due to the fact that it is over 13,000Ft above sea level and you have to fly in reaaaaally hot, otherwise you'll stall.

UAL
"Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy. Bangkok Tower, United 890 Heavy.....Okay, fine, we'll just turn 190 and Visual Our Way

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