User avatar
dvincent
Posts: 1527
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:53 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:25 pm

Psych wrote:
P.S. Maybe I am having a bad day, but the more I think about what Gavin has said the more upset I feel. I care about A.net and want to shout loudly from some rooftop that A.net must address the issues raised by his post. As a fan of aviation photography, do I really care about perfection in sharpening (or whatever it is) when I can see such fantastic images that he produces? The short answer is a definite 'no'. I just don't believe that Gavin's 'standards will have slipped'. I fear a slavish demand for near perfection is going to deprive the site of some really good contributors (who will doubtless pop up elsewhere in the internet - which cannot be in A.net's interests).


It's already happened and will continue to happen as the ratchet goes forward.

A.net is like Skype. It's the standard everyone uses, up until they don't (and they migrate to Discord or Telegram). Don't be like Skype.
From the Mind of Minolta
 
User avatar
airkas1
Head Screener
Posts: 6177
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:01 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Nov 27, 2017 4:53 pm

First of all, I consider Gavin's collection of photos as one of the best that we have to offer. Hands down, Air-2-Air master. And I do have an opinion on this, but I'm quite hesitant to write it as it would involve giving an example by using a user's photos. I'm not sure if that will be appreciated.


Psych wrote:
A.net really needs to closely look at itself if it allows the loss of photographers of Gavin's calibre.

I am willing to help (which he knows), but it was kinda clear to me that the decision has already been made. Nevertheless my offer will always stand.
 
User avatar
Barbro
Posts: 60
Joined: Tue Jun 21, 2005 4:40 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Nov 27, 2017 5:09 pm

Hi all
A really nice and important discussion.
The identity crisis has never been more apparent than now. So many are up for 'more creative' photos to be accepted. Sort of changing the balance of this site towards the creative. I consider myself to be at least moderately active in 'the scene' of sharing photos over a different channels, and firmly believe that making A.net 'more creative' is just something that is not going to be succesful, because:
-there are sites that are waaaay ahead in this and were created from the beginning with creativeness in mind
-changing the 'culture' here will take waaaaay too long, and losses will during that time overcome gains, to make it an effective suicide
-there is a need for this site and what it stands for still, although it may well turn out to be economically unviable..

At the same time I think that standards need to be relaxed here in many areas, as they are just plain killing enthusiasm. Screening times, although much improved lately (thanks screeners), need to be cut dramatically still. I just don't have it in me to wait and hope for a photo to be accepted for multiple weeks amidst the normal grind of family and worklife. The positive side is, it makes me realize why I do my hobby every once in a while; for the love of the hobby, not the exposure on a site...
 
JakTrax
Topic Author
Posts: 4781
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:04 pm

Reflecting on this thread I think I agree with much of what's been said; certainly in that the less important rejection reasons tend to be the most tenaciously enforced. If a photo is slightly soft, or slightly over-sharp, so what? Who's really looking? Now level and colour are much less subjective, and almost instantly detract from a photo (often being noticeable just by the thumbnail).

A lot of images seem to be getting rejected for truly trivial reasons, and a lot accepted that suffer serious (and obvious flaws). I gave up uploading here frequently because it was like playing a lottery - how many of you (please be honest) reuploaded a rejected photo unchanged and had it fly through when it previously got done for umpteen reasons? I've done it countless times!

I know screening is subjective, blah, blah, blah, but there does have to be some kind of consistency, otherwise photographers will go elsewhere. Paul and I predicted this mass departure 5/6 years ago but A.net seemed so sure of its place at the top back then. Complacency. Now it seems whatever can be (and is being) done will simply be too little, too late.

Not so much now, but not so long ago, the site considered itself bigger than those who make/made it what it is. It thought photographers needed A.net whereas, in truth, A.net needed photographers.

Finally, to address Barbro's point about creativity, part of the problem is just how much of aviation photography is considered creative these days. Taking a photo of an aircraft accelerating down a wet runway, kicking up spray, is not creative. Nice effect maybe, but not creative. It's quite irrelevant anyway, since he's right in suggesting that this site has fallen too far behind in that department. What could have been discussed and decided upon in hours as usual had to go all round the houses, from pillar to post, before finally being approved. Spontaneity has unfortunately never been this site's strong point.
Last edited by JakTrax on Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
gavinconroy
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2005 6:14 pm

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Nov 27, 2017 7:07 pm

I won't be uploading images to any other site its just not what I want to do.
Pulling out now means I know I an up to date as of the end of 2017 so if I end up back in a couple of years or longer I will know where I am at.

I think it is important for the site to have standards like it does, I have been offered some help but after 700+ photos in the database I should have it figured out but something is not right.
Sometimes I am so short of time and are pushing to get photos uploaded while I have a moment so that will not be helping, my computer is getting old and maybe the screen is not what it once was, and we all make mistakes so it is a combination of things.
Rejections just mean we sit back and take stock as to where things are at, I am not where I need to be so have to walk away from it.
In a few years when I have slowed down (if that ever happens) I may have the time to take more time but for a while now I just haven't.
The site has helped me realize that and to me it is a good thing, I need to get back to where I was a couple of years back and rather than waste my time and the screeners time I need to step back.
 
User avatar
cpd
Posts: 5103
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:46 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Nov 27, 2017 10:00 pm

JakTrax wrote:
If a photo is slightly soft, or slightly over-sharp, so what? Who's really looking?


I think you've nailed it, as Pysch did before too. Just a shame. I looked at a heap of Gavin Conroy's images and clearly if he can take that standard of images, then I can't believe the rejected ones would be so much different. I don't think his standards have slipped (as per his reflection), it seems more like he has just been beaten down and has just had enough of it. When you can take those kinds of photos, you don't just forget overnight how to do that. It seems clear that it's more than that and he just wants to move on and do other things. That's understandable too.
 
Gasman
Posts: 1638
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:03 am

JakTrax wrote:
how many of you (please be honest) reuploaded a rejected photo unchanged and had it fly through when it previously got done for umpteen reasons? I've done it countless times!

Not "countless" times; but about four of my 80 odd photos on the database were accepted in this way. Didn't bother appealing; simply resubmitted unchanged and they were accepted. It makes something of a mockery of the screening process.

I did appeal this one today, which was initially rejected for "low contrast" and was accepted on appeal. Be interested to hear what you think. I personally feel the low contrast rejection was ludicrous.

http://www.airliners.net/photo/American ... O2bQeXxCt1
 
User avatar
airkas1
Head Screener
Posts: 6177
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:01 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:36 am

Gasman wrote:
Be interested to hear what you think.

Looks fine to me.
 
JakTrax
Topic Author
Posts: 4781
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:02 pm

I think there has to be more of a buffer zone for what is acceptable and what is not - mostly to account for differences in screener monitors, which is a factor currently not taken into consideration. Gasman's photo is a good example - is the contrast acceptable? I certainly think so. Would it still be acceptable with a touch more contrast, and even a touch less? Again, I think so.

Since screening is a human process, I think it's fair to say that some screeners' motivations for doing the task are different to those of others. In the past we were often told that there were no 'rogue screeners' - none that wanted the power trip associated with judging the images of others - however I always asked how the team could be so sure of itself when it is comprised of individuals living thousands of miles apart? Communication is, in reality, at a bare minimum - I can't vouch for someone I hardly know who lives on the other side of the Atlantic!

Now I'm not of course saying that every screener is in this for the wrong reasons, but I think we can be fairly sure a small minority are. It was rejections like Gasman's that lead to me giving up here, coupled with the frequency with which I saw images suffering the same flaws as my rejected examples sailing through.

I've said it a thousand times before: just because one does something for free, doesn't mean that's an excuse to do it sloppily (and again, I'm referring to what is likely a small minority). We all know you devote free time to this, but you presumably do it as part of a hobby you thoroughly enjoy?

Karl
 
User avatar
dvincent
Posts: 1527
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 9:53 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:17 pm

Communication is, in reality, at a bare minimum - I can't vouch for someone I hardly know who lives on the other side of the Atlantic!


When I was on the team, we had a mailing list that had frequent communications. I still have an archive of all those years. Nowadays, I presume they would use something like Slack or Discord for more instant communication, but I don't know what the team uses.
From the Mind of Minolta
 
User avatar
airkas1
Head Screener
Posts: 6177
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 7:01 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Dec 04, 2017 5:32 pm

Within the screening team we only use E-mail. I have some guys on Facebook if I need them more urgently (which I assume goes for others as well).
 
Gasman
Posts: 1638
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:06 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:57 pm

So who makes decisions here about the screening process?? I think there is a critical mass of people who think it's broke. How do we move this forward?
 
JakTrax
Topic Author
Posts: 4781
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:30 am

Re: Image standards slipping?

Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:27 pm

Gasman, the thing is that those of us who think it's broken have already left the site in protest, so moving things forward is probably irrelevant to A.net. If things got fixed I'm not sure I would return as I'm happy having my photos hosted elsewhere now.

Having uploaded very little lately I can't really comment about current screening, but from this thread I understand that some of the rules are still being tenaciously and, perhaps, trivially enforced. From an outsider's point-of-view, I can only go by what I see on the first few pages each time I come here.... and over the past few months that amounts to quite a few images that should have been rejected by even amateur eyes!

Regarding the point Dan made, the sending/receiving of regular emails between people living thousands of miles apart doesn't equate to them being best buddies and knowing each other's motives. My point is that, with perhaps one or two exceptions, the screeners can never be sure that their peers are in this for the right reasons.

Karl

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos