administrator
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon May 17, 1999 5:11 am

Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:01 am

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I am leaving for Stockholm on Wednesday to meet up with a representative from Vyou.com (http://www.vyou.com) to discuss the possibility to protect the photos displayed on Airliners.net with their "Vyoufirst" technology.

After all the copyright violation issues we've had to deal with lately, I have been searching for a method to protect images on the site without having to wreck the experience for our visitors by including large copyright signs all over the photos or limiting the quality and/or size.

I must admit I did not expect to find any software that would actually work. There's always the "Print screen" button right? Wrong. This software prevents even that use. I am really impressed. You, the photographer, would be able to upload your best work in the highest possible quality without fearing theft and the users can enjoy the photos in all it's splendor and full size.

Please go to their website as linked above and read about the technology. Check out their demo on photo protection (text protecting is not relevant to us) and try save, print etc to see that it actually works.

Ones you've read about the technology, please post a reply to this thread with your thoughts about it and what questions you would like me to ask the Vyou.com representative on Wednesday.

You are welcome to join me at the presentation if you happen to be in Stockholm on Wednesday. Contact me by email for more info.

Regards,
Johan Lundgren
Editor Airliners.net

PS. I have posted a reply further down that contains important information. Please read it!

I would also like to point out that this topic is for the photographers with photos on Airliners.net. Other users will have a chance to comment on the issue in a future thread.
Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3716
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:12 am

Well, I really could not try this demo as it is not Mac freindly, but I am hopeful.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
bodobodo
Posts: 545
Joined: Wed May 03, 2000 6:43 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:37 am

It seems like a useful technology. I didn't have the time to check through every last detail but my main concerns would be:

1)Platform dependence: Will this work equally well in all versions of Windows, MacOS, and Linux? It would be a shame to lose a portion of the potential audience because of incompatibilities or the unavailability (for a particular OS) of the plug-in that's required.

2)Browser requirements: What is the minimum version of Netscape or Internet Explorer needed to view this. This might also shut out some computers which are not capable enough to run the latest browsers.

I think it's good to protect the copyright as long as it won't inconvenience those users who just want to view the pictures.

Cheers,
Felix
 
ake0404ar
Posts: 2379
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 10:55 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:45 am

Wow, finally something that protects our work!

pretty impressive if you ask me, just run the demo and I guess this is what we need to protect all our images from copyright violation and theft.

Hmmm on a second thought, it has certainly it's good sides but also some bad ones.
The good and honest people suffer again, but that is the way the world goes these days.

I guess from now on you have to contact the respective photographer for a copy if you want to use it as wallpaper.

Other than that I fully support the software if it will be implemented.

Good job as always Johan.

Vasco
 
PUnmuth@VIE
Posts: 3119
Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2000 9:31 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 3:28 am

Felix:
Supported Browsers are:
Internet Explorer versions 4.x or 5.x on a system running Windows 95/98/NT or 2000.
Netscape Navigator versions 4.5 to 4.76 on a system running Windows 95/98/NT or 2000.

In General I think it's a good idea, but wouldn't it also be possible thet some people won't come here any more because they have to download something they don't know about prior to viewing the pictures? I think that's the way it should work, am I correct?
Peter
-
 
Guest

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 3:53 am

Hi there,

Well I have tried this software and seems to work fine to me.

I did I could copy the image (hold left mouse button then move over the image to make it selected blue and then copy the image but it did not work)

So the software looks good and proffesional to me.

And it will solve a lot of diffrent copyright questions.

Good luck with the new software (if you do purchase it)

 Smile with the best regards,

Jeffrey van Beek- AMS - Netherlands

 
9A-CRO
Crew
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2000 3:53 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:05 am

NO NO NO
why should you disable people to download photos
this would mean you can only view photos online - this is expansive and unnecesary - for some even impossible

I download pictures which I like and store it on my hard disk to view them later
I do (and many people out there) not want to get on-line every time I want to see some picture I like

this will do much more harm than good

photo copyright should be protected but this is too much
if this happens Airliners>NET will loose a lot more that it gains
(and also to mention there I have over 60 photos on this database (some of them unique) and I am not paranoid avout copyright protection
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3716
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:16 am

For me the issue of cross-platform compatibility is important. As in my earler post, I stated that this does not appear to be a Mac friendly program... if this were implemented, how would that effect me as far as my uploads and viewing of photos here ? I would hate to think that we would have to change OS's in order to upload to enjoy A.Net. BTW, how many A.net Mac users are out there ?

Hopefully, Johan will have more answers after he retuns fropm Stockholm later thi week.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
chris28_17
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 4:26 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:17 am

At first i thought this was great..

im having second thoughts. First of all, a few weeks ago a website used my picture for an online newsletter, they were able to get it right from A.net, and i didnt have to bother sending them a copy, it was nice...

There are times i see a picture i really like, but then if i want to show a friend or something, i cant find it again.. (whereas now i would just save it... ) and personally i dont mind if people save my pictures and show friends or use it as wallpaper...

Although i am a bit paranoid about copyright violations, i dont think this is the way to go.

ALTERNATIVE IDEA....

okay, this is a stretch, but could we possibly assign a person whose job is to search for copyright violations online? (such as the corrections editor, etc...) i think if anyone DID make a decent amount of $$ from stealing a photo, we would most likely find out about it... so i dont think locking up the pictures will be positive..

----

could we perhaps try the software out for a while, and then "undo" it if we dont like it? or is it too much of a project to just "undo" it?? (dont know much about puters)

anyway, cheers to whatever the decision...


CHRIS
 
nscaler
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 2:00 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:29 am

Johan,

I think that you are correct in searching for new ways to protect the images. However, I feel that this is not it mainly for two reasons:

1. No more Mac users, which means you would lose an incredible number of graphic artists who only use Macs. Many people in this profession count on airliners.net for their aviation photo needs, without having to rely on the same old boring stock photos and losing these would be a terrible loss to the site.

2. Having to download a plugin. Larger corporations and businesses do not allow users to download and install programs to their computers because of security. Once again, you lose the business/ad agencies who look for photos to use from airliners.net

I understand the thoughts and reasoning behind more protection, but this isn't the way to go about it. The images here really cannot be used for any print purposes, but only for other sites on the internet. Out of those that have been caught stealing photos from the database, how many of them were simply online albums run by little kids? I don't think that we should lose the ability to sell photos from here (be able to have prospective clients e-mail us) by implementing this protection. There must be a better way.

Saul Loeb
 
Guest

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:31 am

I have tried the demo:
I agree with the points made by 9A-CRO.
It will be real downer/restriction of use for
the viewing public.
No.

Gerry/EDI
 
gerardo
Posts: 3372
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:34 am

Johan

I think your idea is great! On airliners.net are true masterpieces, which everybody can use for its purpose, be it private or commercial. To find all the copyright violations is just impossible. So better prevent it.

Regards
Gerardo
dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
ake0404ar
Posts: 2379
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:35 am

Chris28_17 wrote:
"im having second thoughts. First of all, a few weeks ago a website used my picture for an online newsletter, they were able to get it right from A.net, and i didnt have to bother sending them a copy, it was nice..."

That is a section out of the usage of photos on a.net:

"The digital photos on this site are licensed to Airliners.net. They are equipped with a footer with copyright and licence information and also carry an invisible watermark. If you receive permission from the photographer to use a particular photo, you may use a copy from Airliners.net as long as you inform us of the usage as to avoid misunderstandings (we do not appreciate and react strongly when finding our photos on other sites that use them without permission). We do however advice that you get a new copy of the photo directly from the photographer that does not carry our licence and watermark"


The internet may be a free resource but NAPSTER is a good example how it can go.
Shareware is fine unless copyright is violated and in our case it is.

As I said in an earlier post, the small honest person next door will suffer but if you really want a copy e-mail the person and maybe they will send you a copy.

I am pro this software ,of course all user input has to be taken into consideration and I am sure Johan will find a suitable solution to this ongoing problem.

Vasco
 
chris28_17
Posts: 1372
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:48 am

wow vasco, i admit i never noticed that before...  Innocent

doesnt really change my mind though...


CHRIS
 
ryu2
Posts: 1546
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:49 am

I am fully for the protection of copyright. However, it appears that this software will only work on current browsers on Windows platforms. See: http://www.vyou.com/pubcomponent.asp?sect=pubsystem&pid=24

I use Linux, and if airliners.net becomes a Windows-only web site, then I will regretfully have to stop using it, as I absolutely will not boot into Windows simply to access a single web site.
 
bodobodo
Posts: 545
Joined: Wed May 03, 2000 6:43 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 4:53 am

Having thought it over I personally would not go for this. In addition to the concerns that I mentioned above which would perhaps reduce the number of people able to view the photos as well as discourage others who don't want to bother with plugins I probably wouldn't opt for it even if it was seamless. I'm assuming that Airliners.net is supported by advertising and if this does annoy a lot of people then the traffic will go down and perhaps so will the advertising support.

I have a significant number of photos online here but I don't think I'm losing out by having people able to download my photo for free. As decent as the photos look on the screen they would make pretty bad prints and I can't see anyone using the photos here for serious commercial purposes. When I have sold images I either had to send a much more detailed scan or the original slide. The people who sent requests and were happy to use the online versions were all using them for non-profit purposes such as in a thesis, for an enthusiasts website, on someone's business card...

It's been discussed in other situations (eg. Hong Kong spotters throwing stones) how a few abusive people can mess things up for everyone else. This seems to be another example of the same thing. As much as I hate to see people take the photos and portray them to be their own on places like Webshots is that enough reason to mess things up for the majority of users who may want to download the occasional picture for their own use? Consider if you couldn't tape that TV show about 777's or Kansai Airport to watch when you get home from work just because on occasion a few people do the same thing and try to sell copies of it.

Felix
 
ryu2
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:18 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:19 am

How about a compromise -- make Vyou OPTIONAL for each photo at the photographer's discretion.

Specifically, allow the photographer to decide, at the time of submission of his or her photo, whether or not to display the photo using the VYou technology, so if he/she wishes the stronger copyright protection for the photo at the cost of restricting the audience, he or she has the option. At the same time, it is not forced upon every member of airliners.net.
 
planeboy
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 2:56 am

Options On This New System

Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:21 am

Once this system is implemented will it be possible for photographers here to decide if they want their pictures "Locked" ? It would be nice if this feature exists on this system - that way those who want to protect their pictures can - and those who don't mind their photos being downloaded for personal use could allow it. Just an idea -
 
Cliffie
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2000 4:59 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 5:41 am

Well, I'm just a little light here at a.net, but believe me even as participant (photographer) I wouldn't download some plug-in that cuts down the abilities of my browser.

With every additional piece of executable you risk one more backdoor in your system.

My 2 cents.

Ingo Richardt
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3716
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:16 am

I have to go along with the concensus here and say NO!. While Johan's heart is in the right place, I believe if this were put into place, a lot of photograhers/viewers as well as potential buyers would move on to other sites, simply because of OS incompabilities, annoying downloads ect..

I would ask Johan to re-consider this application, it appears just to be too restrictive.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
mikephotos
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:25 am

I installed the plugin to test how it works and don't have any problems with accessing anything and everything on my computer. Except for the vyou.com site, all other sites, programs, files, etc..work as always. However, that doesn't mean I'm "for" installing this program on airliners.net. Yes, there are a few people who might misuse our photos but that's life. Even with this program installed people will eventually find a work-around. Plus, I'd hate to get 100 emails a day saying.."Can you email me photoid#00000 so I can use it as a wallpaper".

It's a good idea, just not for airliners.net

Michael
 
BA
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:35 am

I think its good Johan. One quick question though. Will users still be able to save photos on airliners.net to there desktop as wallpapers? Just wondering, doesn't really matter to me.  Smile
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Ryefly
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:35 am

As a Mac user only I wouldn't be able to use Airliners.net even if I wanted too. Its too bad if it happens because I know the site will loose a lot of members that would like to stay. Perhaps it would just be easier for photographers to have any photo that they are not willing to risk copyright violations against removed. There are always loop holes with computers but not if you don't post photos you are sensitive too. A simple screen shot can take a picture of this very page if you really wanted it. The photos are really only good for on the web. No one would pay the printing cost for a low dpi photo and companies using the photo for profit would most likely not take the chance since airliners are some what a specialty. The only threat is from personal web sites or for personal pleasure such as screen savers or wall paper. The prevention seems a little drastic since 95% or more of the people viewing the photographs are members of this site and will likely go elsewhere if they can no longer view the pictures with out Windows and a special plug-in.
 
administrator
Posts: 2702
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:53 am

Thank you for your replies. Let me comment on some of the issues you brought up:

1) Support for MAC/Linux and other OS/browsers
Mac users account for only 1% of our traffic, Linux even less. Still, I agree you should be able to use a Mac/Linux while viewing our photos. Vyou claims they are constantly improving the software and I think Mac/Linux etc will be supported in the near future. I will not add the software until Mac is supported.

2) Ability for users to download photos for personal use
Users will be able to download a photo, save it and/or print it under a licence for personal use only. We will charge a dollar or two for every download. That dollar will be split 50/50 with the photographer who owns the photo. Using this technology, the user will be able to view the photo in full size and highest quality on the site for free. We will only charge the user if he/she wishes to save the photo on the hard disk and/or print it. No one is forced to pay any money. The site will be free to access as always and the photos will be free to view.

It costs money to run a high quality website. It costs money to take high quality photographs. You cannot walk into a real-life photo gallery, rip a photo off the wall and walk out. You will have to pay. Those users who don't belive it's worth a buck for every photo you print/save for support of the photographer and Airliners.net don't have to download.

Some people say we will loose traffic to other photo sites. Initially it might be so. But as mentioned, it costs money to run a site and those who do not generate any money will expire. Photographers will realize this and send their photos to:
1) Where they know their work is safe from theft.
2) Where the site will remain for all foreseeable time and their work on upload will not be wasted.
3) Where they will generate income to help finance their hobby.

Users will realize this and visit the site that:
1) Carries the highest quality photos.
2) Where they know the top photographers upload their photos.
3) Where they can, for a very small fee, receive a genuine licence to print and save a photo for personal use.

I know some photographers complain about high volume of emails they receive from Airliners.net users and they fear that they will receive even more ones this new software have been installed. We will create a personal page for every photographer where he/she can inform users about the photo policies he/she uses (like a small personal FAQ) as well as other info (and photos of yourselves!).

Regarding the plug-in that you have to download, it's only 200Kb big and will not change the behavior of your web browser in any way. You will be able to download photos and read text as usual. The only difference will be that in the future, you will be able to view the full size, high quality version of every photo on Airliners.net.

Finally, I kindly ask that only photographers currently with photos in our database reply to this thread. It's a lot to read and to begin with I'd like to know the opinions of the photographers. Other users will get their chance later.

Thank you,
Johan Lundgren
Editor Airliners.net
Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)
 
pascuzzi
Posts: 15
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 6:53 am

Dear 9A-CRO

While I only partially agree with your fears, it is a much better protection for the photographer to have a request in the form of an email to simply send out an image to a person who wishes to save it and look at it than to have to legally fight internet companies for permitting OUR (MY in several cases) stolen work to be sold under someone else's name. Perhaps you don't mind if people steal your pictures and sell them under other pretenses, but I DO mind it; I've gone to great lengths to get excellent photographs, and I take great offense to having some goofy outfit like http://www.webshots.com selling them without even checking what images their users upload.

I am all for this software if it means protecting everyone's images; even yours.

Edward Pascuzzi
http://www.thephysicsguy.com
pascuzzi@fnal.gov
 
pascuzzi
Posts: 15
Joined: Sat Dec 25, 1999 1:23 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:06 am

Dear Everyone, and Vngd4me too,

While you do make a good point, you must realize that people whose photographs are appealing to those unscrupulous people out there will certainly be taken and used illegally. Perhaps you have never experienced this violation, but it is something akin to being professionally raped and prostituted, simulatenously. How would you feel if you saw your image in a book, magazine, or other website, unbeknownst to you, with someone else's name under it in the caption? Would you honestly be "excited" to see your work in print....with ANOTHER person's name on it? I highly doubt it.

Consider your position again. It is MUCH easier to send someone a jpg of one of your photos than have to get a lawyer to fight a big internet company. Think about it.


Edward Pascuzzi
http://www.thephysicsguy.com
pascuzzi@fnal.gov
 
Guest

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:15 am

Briefly, the plug-in may not get beyond firewalls.
Surely a high source of hits (and popularity) to this
site is from surfers at work?

Gerry
 
USAir_757
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 12:30 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:29 am

I disagree, this looks like something that will screw everything. Something to make my browser take up more memory(it already takes up too much to begin with). Second, I don't have a credit card nor can I get one at 16 years old. Something everyone who has a good cashflow and one or more credit cards is forgetting is all of us under 18 who do NOT have a credit card and/or good cashflow.(I have neither)

Now for the important part. I download roughly 300 photos per month from airliners.net for personal use. $1 may not seem like a lot, but after a year, I've paid roughly $3600!

I am totally opposed to this idea. I would be perfectly fine with it if I didn't have to pay to use photos for personal use. This isn't a gallery store. This is the internet A multitude of minors who cannot get a job nor a credit card use the internet. Be considerate here.

I'm sure to be flamed by this post but I can live with it.

C. Wassell
-Cullen Wassell @ MLI | Pentax K5 + DA18-55WR + Sigma 70-300 DL Macro Super
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:37 am

Putting in my 2 cents...

On the whole principle, I do not object. This site has grown to a significant level of popularity and service, and most services will continue to be free, however if you want to keep something, a contribution to the expenses should be paid. But I'd watch very carefully at the changes in hit traffic following implementation.

Once this is implemented, I'll be curious to see if there would be a reduction of the number of people I get e-mails from asking me whether they can use my pics. In other words, the "if $1 fee is enough for personal use, why not use it on my site or wherever, after all, it's not as if i didn't pay for it" arguement might pop up.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Glenn
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Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:33 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:37 am

I am all for it

Glenn Alderton
 
User avatar
Scooter
Posts: 838
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 1999 12:18 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 7:51 am

Keep in mind that may people access this site from places in which they have no control (or ability) to add support software.

As a budding aviation photographer, I use this site as a source of learning AND inspiration. It would just flat out suck ass to have to email someone so I could add a picture to my personal 'inspiration shot' folder on my PC.

The internet is public domain. Nobody should put anything out there they don't want others to snatch up.

My vote is no.
My name is Scott, and I am addicted to writing trip reports.
 
User avatar
BO__einG
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:06 am

Interesting.
But How will this cope with new problems if they arise.
Which already some are starting to form such as objections and perhaps a certain number of few giving up their use of a.net?

I do also hate the art of Plagarizing as it drains the Happy thought the photographer has due to the effort and quality a picture was spent on and was wasted away from some no good person/company..

but wei'll see..

Bo,
Follow @kimbo_snaps on Instagram or bokimon- on Flickr to see more pics of me and my travels.
 
BA
Posts: 10134
Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:17 am

I 100% agree with USAir_757. I do not like the idea that people have to pay to download a photo. Most of the photographers on airliners.net upload there shots here to share them to the world, and let them download them on there computers as wallpapers, and to enjoy them. I to, have saved MANY shots. Especially wing shots, and I look at them every day or so. I would really hate to have to pay to download a photo. Its not because its only $1. Even 50 cents would bother me. Just the idea of me having to have to pay to enjoy aviation photography makes me sad. If I had photos on airliners.net, I wouldn't want to charge anyone to download a photo onto there desktop. Yes, I don't like it when people take photos and put them on there own site without permission. But charging to download? This is a bit too far. ESPECIALLY for photos. Something like this should be shared to the world at no cost.
Just my thought.

Kind regards.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:19 am

Is it possible to give this protection only to individual photographers, who want it, and not to every photograph?

I am not professional in any way, I have a tiny amount of 20 pics in here - non of which are in any way exceptional, and I feel quite safe against online piracy. But professional photographers, or even very skilled hobby-photographers might think differently. I would support protecting the Great Shots Section and all photos by Mike Garfinkel and all the others in his league - these people deserve far more credit and appreciation than many of us amateurs, and they are the ones who might be scared off if they find their photos used illegally. I would not want that to happen, and hence I would prefer to have to download a plug-in to see their pictures to losing their contribution to airliners.net. And if that means paying a dollar to save their pictures, then so be it.

So Johan, can you ask them this question: Is it possible to use the plug-in only on those photographers who apply for it, and not on all pictures?

After all, this system would still leave many high-quality pictures open to the public, as all pictures here are high-quality and many photographers won't feel the need for this protection.
 
Glenn
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:33 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:26 am

I am sorry, where does public domain come from ?????

I work on sites that are definately not public doamin and as the Internet derives from Military use, I certainly can not agree with you there. There are public domain sites but just because you say so does not neccessarily make it so.

If I can stop people from using my images or stealing my bank account details or stop sending my kids PORN, Then I am for it.
 
Dazed767
Posts: 4968
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:32 am

Right now I'm 50/50 on the situation. I am tired of the copyright violations though, but restricting the use of the photos like this seems like a little too much. Just like Chris said, I like the fact when someone wants to use your photo, they can take it right off the site, without me having to dig up the photo and scan it to them. But of course that could be bad also, when someone takes it and uses it without permission. I probably will disagree though with this new program.
 
USAir_757
Posts: 949
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2000 12:30 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:34 am

Glenn, you're missing the point. I'm all for the protection part. However, here in the USA, those under 18 CANNOT aquire credit cards. This makes me totally UNABLE to pay the charge, and therefore UNABLE to use any of these photos as my desktop wallpaper. How fair is that??
-Cullen Wassell @ MLI | Pentax K5 + DA18-55WR + Sigma 70-300 DL Macro Super
 
Ned Kelly
Posts: 398
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:46 am

I found this great website by accident a couple of months ago whilst searching for some decent wallpaper of aircraft. I liked it so much I added it to my favourites because it was "user friendly", which surely must be the success behind the majority of web sites out there. If I was unable to save these great pictures as wallpaper I probably wouldn't have returned.
My photo collection has been (was) gathering dust in my drawer for the past 20 years, and no-one was interested in them, at last I have found a community to share them with. The chances of anyone using photo's illiegally are probably small any way, let's not "cut off our noses to spite our face".(excuse the pun).
I know that there are proffesional photogs out there who make a living on this, but for every one "pirate" you stop, you will probably be stopping ten potential buyers.
How about e-mailing those with photos on this site to vote on this? thus the majority wins.
At the end of the day Johan it's your site, your decision.
Thanks for your time.
 
AUS_Spotter
Posts: 279
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2000 1:35 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:46 am

I'm for the addition of something that will stop the copyright violations but I'm not too sure about charging for photos. I don't take photos to make money, I do it because it is something I enjoy. Now if I can sell a photo or 2 to companies or magazines or whatever, great! But I don't think charging $1.00 per photo just for someone to download and use as wallpaper is right.

I'm definitely for protecting my photos from being used without permission, but I don't like the idea of charging for downloads.

Jason Knutson - Austin, TX
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:46 am

Well one way to solve the credit card problem would be to setup a program like "airliners.net bucks". You send Johan a check/money order/cash for say, $20 and you get 20 a.net bucks loaded into your account. You then are able to download 20 photos until you account is empty and needs to be refilled.

Or, maybe there could be a link that lets you download a lower quality "wallpaper" version instead of a high-quality print-ready image. Sounds like Johan wants this site to be more geared towards a professional stock photo site which allows (paid) access to high-quality images that's ready for print. I wouldn't totally disagree to that but I understand that a lot of photographers have no interest in that area.

I could be totally wrong, just thowing some ideas out for us to discuss.

Michael
 
Guest

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 8:50 am

Hi all,

Overall - in favour of some protection for my/our shots...so leaning towards YES.

Scooter...putting a picture on the Internet does not make it public domain...try ripping off some Microsoft files/graphics/content and see if they consider it "public domain". The Internet is a communications and publishing medium.

Ikarus (and others)...allowing for "opt outs" will only introduce the prospect of those opting in having their shots ignored while people just use the freebies...no? This needs to be "all for one and one for all" - if we work together we can find a solution that works...but it makes no sense to begin to undermine ourselves by opting for half-baked solutions...

Johan...this all sounds good...but although I am leaning towards a personal YES, my experience of computing in the corporate world (which is where many people have their only access to a PC) makes me think this might just be something the Network Administrators and Network Security people might not want to entertain...

Very interesting topic...

Cheers,
Dean



 
yhu
Posts: 422
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:01 am

I have to agree with many people here and say NO to the idea. On many occasions I have had people in my office ask about an aircraft they will be flying on. I usually send them the URL of the photo on Airliners.net. With this I would also have to tell them that they must download a plug-in to see the full photo. Any time I am at someone elses home using a computer and I want to show them something, again, download the plug-in. I think it punishes the majority due to the mis-use of a minority. I think it would take away from the enjoyment of Airliners.net.

Dave
 
BA
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Joined: Fri May 19, 2000 11:06 am

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:04 am

I think Airliners.net should stay the same as it is right now. There is no way to make it 100% copyright violation proof. If someone is desperate to use a photo commercially, they will do it no matter what fancy protection program you have. There is always a way around it. Thats how computers work. No matter what you have. If you have a bunch of firewalls, and security programs, they can still hack you. Thats how computers are. There is always a way around. Its not possible to make a computer 100% fool proof. There is ALWAYS a way around, no matter what. So adding this software, will make innocent viewers frustrated that they have to pay a fee to download a photo to look at in there spare time and to enjoy. Its not the amount of money. You can charge $5 per photo, or 5 cents per photo. Its the IDEA of having to pay to download a photo for personnal use.
Yes, there are many bad copyright violaters out there. But there are also innocent aviation fantatics who just want to enjoy some photos on there desktop when they turn on there computer. Its a comforting thought. I currently have a aviation photo from airliners.net on my desktop, and everytime I turn on my computer and see that shot, I get a nice feeling inside of me. It would be a shame to have to pay to have that nice feeling.
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
n314as
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 1:30 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:17 am

Thank you Johan for this.

Most people that have written to me regarding use of the photos, have asked
permission. I don't mind their use as long as proper credit is given. I will
usually send them the .jpeg file directly from my computer, so this new system
will not be a problem for them. On the other hand, I saw a site that was brought
to my attention, where someone used 2 of my photos, to combine a digitized
America West 767-400. (They used a shot of one of my Delta 76-4s with
an America West 75-2 without my permission. In this case, and since I deal
with a slide service, I welcome any and all protection for our fellow photographers. Once again, your site is tremendous and if you need help or
suggestions in any way, please feel free to contact me. It has made me many
new friends around the world.
Thank you,
Joe Fernandez, Aviation Photography of Miami
No signature
 
chrisair
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:18 am

Hi Guys,

Let me throw my 0.02 cents in.

I think it's a very good idea to protect the photos on this site. Locking the photos is a good idea, however I am dreading the amount of emails I'll be getting asking "Can I have photo XXXXXX" for wallpaper, or website use. To top that off, each photo ranges from 150-200K (roughly) in size, and for those of us who don't have DSL, Cable, etc...it would simply take too long to send out photos.

I am quite protective over my photos, as I put time and effort (and money) into them. I am all for protection of them, and possibly making a few bucks in the process (who would complain about making a couple dollars?) BUT to charge someone to use a photo for wallpaper is not correct. Although, if the money being brought in from banner ads isn't enough to keep this site running, then an alternative should be looked at. Is this really the way though?

Johan, two questions for you regarding the "highest quality" stuff. Does this mean we could upload in *.tiff format? Secondly, if we could upload in *.tiff or something that has higher quality than Jpeg, what would it do to the bandwith, and how fast this site runs?

Finally, one last question, this would seem to indicate Airliners would be here for the long-term. What are the plans for Airliners in the future? Is this site going to be here in 5 or more years? Do you want Airliners to be a stock gallery, like Mike M. said, or do you want it to be a place where both pro's and budding guys can upload?

Regards,

Chris Coduto
 
LeoDF
Posts: 349
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:22 am

Absolutely yes!
Lloyd Aereo Boliviano
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:40 am

I think Johan has made a successful effort to strike a happy middle by both satisfying people who think this is going to a "professionals only" site and photogs who wish for fairness.
As I read Johan's second important thread, I realize he is still allowing for people to check out the photos big if they so choose. If most only knew how much money Johan could make here if he were to be less generous, then most would be happy with this good decision. Airliners.net has grown to a huge "experience". Johan invented this, he should reap the benefits. It sounds as if he is willing to reap smaller benefits so as to keep the airliners.net community happy.
I have not minded people using my photos for wallpaper or free personal use, but maybe 300 downloads a year (no disrespect meant here) is a bit excessive. The best things in life are not always free. If someone is that much into downloading these photos, then it should be like anything else. $

Mark Garfinkel
 
lanpie
Posts: 290
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RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:40 am

Hi Mr. Lundgren,

I believe, it is correct to improve copyright for the photos on airliners.net. Hopefully, that new system will not prevent the access to the site and viewing of the photos.
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:50 am

US AIR 757, I am sorry, but you said this: "This makes me totally UNABLE to pay the charge, and therefore UNABLE to use any of these photos as my desktop
wallpaper. How fair is that??"


How fair is what?? Things cost money.....Johan putting this site out to the public costs money, photogs film etc...
This is a VERY GOOD DEAL...

Mark Garfinkel
 
access-air
Posts: 1576
Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2000 5:30 pm

RE: Photo Rights Protection On Airliners.net

Tue Feb 27, 2001 9:54 am

Well I guess its my turn....
Personally, I think that the "pay for the picture" idea is not very practical.....as stated by several before, you would be chasing away a large majority of casual viewers that would like to download a photo for the desktop...as I do at the Travel Agency I work in, to explane an equipment type to a client...I currently have an A.net Allegheny BAC-111 displayed....

Myself I have 174 photos on this site(not alot) and altho there might be someone that comes along and uses my pictures without my permission, all so far have e-mailed me first, and I cheerfully obliged. I guess what bothers me is the fact that some of the photgtraphers that seem to be worried about their photos also seems to to be the ones that are dumping 20-30 pics in here at a time...and taking advantage of the free webspace. If they are so concerned about copyright infringement...then they just ought to build and maintain and pay for their own personal website.In that respect they would have better control over whomever comes along and tries to use their work...Im not trying to be disrespectful but there are people that have photos on this site that also maintain their own personal sites....and then there are those that seem to just dump massive amounts of pics on here and expect You, Johan to baby sit them......Then they complain if one person uses thier picture. I dont know how common this is amongst the more "celebrated" photographers, and for some it maye be a real problem.
That is a situation that they can control 100%...by not uploading something that they think will be a problem. Granted they may want to show the world their work...but then the world isnt kind...
Evidentally, it all comes down to what it always does... Money.......and I refuse to pay for just to look, download for my own use or refuse to charge others to view or download my photos on this website. I would strongly suggest that you look at some live example of another airliner website that uses this software before proliforating it on this site.....Unfortunatly, If this should come to pass......Airliners.net will become an exclusive rich man's website that will be only frequented by those few that have an unending amount of cashflow......All the FAQ pages and stock answers and points are mute , when it costs you traffic to this site......I strongly disagree and wish not to support this latest plan to make this site all the more exclusive.

Sincerely, Gary C. Orlando
Chatroom operator "AccessAir" for A.net
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!

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