Invader
Topic Author
Posts: 289
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2000 7:41 am

Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Mon Apr 02, 2001 3:49 pm

Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 change proposal

At the moment FAQ No.30 says :
"What if I want to have my photos removed from your site?"
Currently the answer is :
"Well, if it comes to that we'll remove them."

The proposal is to change the answer to :

"In principle, photos cannot be removed.
Exceptions to this rule can be made when :
1) a better quality upload of the same photo is made (via the Re-upload button).
2) a legal issue forces a removal.
3) a copyright infringement is found, or a "photographer" who uploaded photos made by another person without that person's consent, or who uploaded pictures copied from books, magazines, postcards, and such.
4) a photo is found to be a composite or fake.
5) duplicate photos are found.
6) a better quality picture is available for the same aircraft, with the same registration, the same color scheme, and at the same location.
7) special circumstances, to the discretion of the Editor-in-Chief, ask for removal."

In the past photos have been removed from the site for the reasons mentioned above in the "Exceptions". But photos have also been removed, a.o. because the photographer :
-passed away and his family requested a removal
-could no longer, or was not willing to, handle all the e-mails he received in connection with the photos
-wanted the photos to become exclusive for a book he was writing
-didn't like Airliners.net anymore
-was no longer content with the quality of his early uploads
-lost interest in aviation photography
-didn't like the idea that people did, or could, copy his photos from the internet.

We, the editors, were not really happy with that for several reasons. Quite a few of the viewers just browse a bit through the photos, and some photographers possibly see Airliners.net only as a good selling medium, or an advanced kind of slide show, and there is nothing wrong with that.

But after the tremendous and continuing grow of Airliners.net, many viewers and aircraft historians are now considering the site also as a photo archive to which they return regularly to view the photos of a subject which they are researching, or for which they have a special interest. Those subjects could be e.g. an aircraft type, or some airline company, or an airport. For them it is very important that there is some permanency in the availability of the photos. It is very frustrating for them to discover that a photo has disappeared. It is the same as a postage stamp collection which you try to get complete, but from which stamps inexplicably disappear at random, or an encyclopedia in a library where other people have torn out pages to which you wanted to return for some further study. Also pilots, aircraft owners and operators, airport and other aviation authorities, airshow visitors, and many more, are known to highly value a permanent availability, so they can always refer back to a picture.

Another reason is that some photographers check if a photo of a specific aircraft is already available at Airliners.net, and, when it is, don't upload the photo. It is clear that permanent availability is very important in this respect.

Also, some protection of the site is important. Especially when the photos of a photographer with more than a few hundred photos would suddenly be removed, this is not only a loss for the site, but is also showing a disrespect for the many people who were enjoying those photos, and maybe wanted to see them a second time.

Not a subject you want to think about, but also photographers die. We would like to keep the photos for all future. The work of a deceased photographer will thus live on on Airliners.net, and his name will not be forgotten. Deleting those photos would mean that older rare photos would constantly disappear. That would be very unfortunate, as photos from the 40s and maybe 50s could now already start to disappear, not speaking of accidents that can happen to younger photographers (remember the late Stephen Piercey of Propliner magazine ?).

And last but not least, Johan, the Editor-in-Chief, has invested a proportional amount of all his time, energy, knowledge, and money into everybody's photos. Also Andrew, the Corrections Editor, and myself, the Standardization Editor, have invested an enormous amount of time (an on-line money) into adding details, making corrections, and standardizing entries, in a few cases even spending half an hour to find the details for just one photo. You can imagine our feelings when such photos are suddenly withdrawn and you have done all the work for nothing, just because somebody changes his mind. It would make you wonder if it is not better to change to some other pastime where your work is not so easily thrown in the wastebin. Also, all the people who send in corrections, and there are many of them, should not be forgotten, they also spent a lot of time and research on those photos.

Some photographers might remark "how about our copyright?". Well, this has nothing to do with a transfer of copyright, as the photographer had and has the copyright and can do with the photos what he wants, except that the availablility of the photos on Airliners.net would be changed from a, sometimes, temporary basis to a permanent basis. Just like publishing photos in a book or a magazine, where a photographer can also not withdraw his photos when he doesn't like it anymore !

Airliners.net has absolutely no plans of starting to charge photographers to display their photos. We truly enjoy running the site and hosting the photos. The servers, storage space, publicity and our work will continue to be free for those who's photos are good enough to be added. We hope you will see our "permanent licence" to display your photos as a small price to pay for the services we provide. Instead of charging photographers we will try to find other forms of revenue (like the store and Airliners.net merchandise) to pay for costs of hardware, Internet connection etc.

For photographers who, for some reason, don't want to receive e-mail for their photos anymore, there is some good news : coming very soon is a registration feature for photographers. On your own personal "admin" page on Airliners.net, you will be able to check detailed photo stats and change personal information like email address and name. You will also have the ability to add photos of yourself and other personal information if you wish, that will be displayed on your public contact page. Furthermore, you will be able to write a personal FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) that people will have to read before contacting you via the email interface on the contact page on Airliners.net. Finally, you will have the ability to disable the contact form altogether so that no one can contact you via Airliners.net.

So, let's hear your comments ! But, as this Forum is mainly visited by the photographers, please try to see also the arguments of the viewers and users of your photos.

Peter Vercruijsse
Database Standardization Editor
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Mon Apr 02, 2001 5:05 pm

Well, I missed my chance. There are a number of pics I was thinking of deleting, particularly my early ones from when I didn't know what I was doing.

But I support your arguements. I also have been trying to screen my uploads, only sending in pics of planes which are not on the database or have lower-quality, or simply different aspects than what I captured. I wouldn't want to go back and double check all of them every 6 months or so.

Keep up the excellent work,

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Mon Apr 02, 2001 5:12 pm

I don't think this is an unreasonable proposal - however, I'm not sure you can (legally!) make it retrospective without giving photographers a chance to withdraw before this ruling is applied (eg. 30 days from now).

Also, I think the agreement needs to work 2 ways - the current conditions of use on A.net may change ... for instance, as was proposed earlier, a charge for downloads may be introduced. Such changes would require offering photographers the opportunity to withdraw their pics.

Finally, in the event of the death of a photographer- I think this is probably a legal minefield. Certainly under UK law (and I suspect elsewhere) copyright of the deceased automatically transfers to the family unless the deceased's will states otherwise. Unless you arrange some sort of formal contract between photographer and A.net, I think you will have to accept the right of the family to withdraw images if they see fit.

In fact, while I agree on the whole with Peter's proposals, in the absence of any written agreement between photogs. and A.net, I doubt any of this would be legally sustainable and I suspect you would still have to let any photographer withdraw if they threatened to do to court over the matter.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Mon Apr 02, 2001 6:06 pm

I am looking forward to the new photographer's registration feature, allowing us to change the name. I have been thinking about changing the name on my few photos to Ikarus - corresponding to my forum username, and simply ignore my real name.

I have no problem with the new rules, except that I would probably be severely disappointed if my photos got deleted as soon as better pictures of the same plane in the same location get available...

However, I would really like this guarantee to work both ways: We guarantee you not to take back our pictures, and you guarantee us to do your best to keep this site running, indefinitely. I would hate to see this site go under due to lack of financing or if the University in Sweden decides to no longer grant us server space. And after all, I only uploaded my pictures to this site, and no others, in the hope that this is the best and most long-term site available. It would only be fair to ask for this promise....

Regards

Ikarus
 
administrator
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon May 17, 1999 5:11 am

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Mon Apr 02, 2001 6:14 pm

Ckw,

>I'm not sure you can (legally!) make it retrospective
>without giving photographers a chance to withdraw
>before this ruling is applied (eg. 30 days from now).

We fully understand that and have no plans of doing it retrospective without consent of the photographer.

>Finally, in the event of the death of a photographer- I
>think this is probably a legal minefield.

The future "Photographer Registration" will include a "rules and conditions" part, where the photographer will be able to grant us a licence to host his photos on our site. Ones he have read the rules and conditions, he will have to press a "I agree" button, which I belive is legally binding.

Let me again point to the fact that we mearly want a licence to host the photos on Airliners.net, the copyrights to the photo will, just like now, belong to the photographer.

Regards,
Johan

Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)
 
9A-CRO
Crew
Posts: 1529
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2000 3:53 pm

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Mon Apr 02, 2001 6:30 pm

yes, photos should stay permamently
and it should not be removed,
neither for the there is better photo reason
there are sites on the internet that have linked to your photos
(as I have to my photos on my website)
so removing photos will cause "whoops, no photo" message
and that would be too bad
When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward...
 
skyliner
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 4:07 am

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Mon Apr 02, 2001 8:46 pm

Peter's analogy to a published book is a good one. If your photos are in a book or magazine, they will continue to be "published" as long as any copies exist, whether you still want this or not. As long as it is clear that the photographer retains copyright, and airliners.net is not selling the photos in any fashion (without permission), the new system should not be a problem, and will in fact preserve images which otherwise might be lost in the future.
George
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Mon Apr 02, 2001 9:15 pm

George said:

"Peter's analogy to a published book is a good one"

Any analogies between web and print are very dangerous and can be misleading, and this is a case in point. A printed publication, is, if you like an isolated act, done once under specific contracts and conditions. The book, once published, won't change whereas the web will. I may agree with the terms under which A.net currently operates, but may not agree with a future evolution to A.net.

While I agree with the rationale behind this proposal (and will go along with it as things are), there is a potential downside, that being that A.net will effectively be frozen in its current form unless the Administrators are able to get consent from all photographers who have signed the agreement. The only way out of this would be to ask photographers to agree to allow their photographs to be used REGARDLESS of any future developments. This I think could be very foolish - I've already cited the example of the introduction of charging but there are a number of other scenarios in which a photographer might feel the original terms of agreement have been altered.

Another issue which I think would need to be explicitly clarified would be to what extent A.net will "protect" photographs. If, for example, I find that my pictures are being ripped of for financial gain by a 3rd party through A.net, I may wish to withdraw my collection to protect my own interests. Will A.net undertake to protect my interests or not? This should be clearly stated.

Finally, while I understand the administrators rationale and concerns, this does cut both ways - what assurance do the photographers have (who have collectively put in a lot of effort as well!) that A.net will be around in 12 months time?

It seems to me that, like many internet innovations, A.net works through a lot of goodwill and trust on both sides. It is my experience that as soon as you try and formalise this sort of co-operative activity, you can create more problems than solutions. What would happen, for instance, if an agrieved photographer decides to take A.net to court over a perceived breach of the proposed terms of agreement? Can A.net afford to mount a defence?

In short, does the benefit of this proposal outweigh what could well become an administrative headache?

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
Glenn
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:33 pm

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Mon Apr 02, 2001 9:47 pm

I have to ask.

Johan has changed the rules in the past ( Mostly for the better, although I scratch my head sometimes in having photos accepted or rejected)

What if Johan changes the rules and a photographer who has a particular dislike to that arangement. Surely he then has the right to pull the plug and take his photos elsewhere. After all, you agree to a contract ( in this case by clicking the I agree button) but if you move the goalposts surely you are changing the terms of the contract you agreed on and this then must then void the issues at hand.

I don't know why Johan is implementing this, whilst I don't see it as a problem at the moment, I would like to have my photos removed at my request when and if I see fit. Particulary if I choose to submit my photos to an agency working on my behalf that can and do in some cases insist on have sole rights to the image.

I would have to seriously consider the prospect of keeping images on a site that will not respect my wishes for my photographs ( I understand a few people would be jumping up and down at that prospect)  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

They know who they are

My 2 cents worth

Glenn Alderton
 
mirage
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Tue Apr 03, 2001 3:19 am

I agree with the change but is just my impression that since the photo is uploaded to this site, it (the .jpeg file) becomes owned by Airliners.net?

Luis
 
mirage
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Tue Apr 03, 2001 3:22 am

Sorry but I think I was not clear on my last post. I just think the photographer should be able to decide if one of his photos can be on the database or not. If he decides to remove it, his decision should be respected.

Luis
 
Guest

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Tue Apr 03, 2001 3:39 am

My Views,

Do I read this right, if there are two similiar photos, same aircraft, same reg, same location, same colours etc, only one will be accepted from now on.
Does this mean I will have to search for a similiar photo, to make sure I'm even in with a chance?

Surely then this will turn into a lottery of sorts, as there will be many photos of the same aircraft for instance at an airport from a particular good viewing area, some will make it, some won't

I definitely agree with a registration process, and personal faq etc is certainly a good idea. Perhaps it would be allowed that this could be linked to as a particular photographers homepage. This way a photographer could perhaps register a domain name, and have it redirected to "their" aircraft photography home-page. With their info and photos present. Would this be allowed?

On the issue of the death of a photographer, I can conquor with both sides of the story, and hope you can make the right decision, with the family in mind, and also the time, effort, and money of the a.net staff, and the immortality as such of the photographer.

Best Regards to all contributors,
Especially the dedicated staff of airliners.net
I hope you do realise how much you are appreciated, and I for one hope you will continue for many years to come!

Cheers,
Dave
[...Dublin, Ireland
...http://boeing777.bizland.com
 
TomH
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:13 am

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Tue Apr 03, 2001 9:10 am

Organizations are dynamic, they change. No one at A.net today can say for sure what the A.net of three years from now will be like. I know of several enthusiast clubs that went through change and were not the same thereafter. They lost many members and contributors and literally disintegrated.

My feeling is all photographers need to be able to withdraw from the organization if they so desire. Withdrawal in my definition means photos are taken down at the photographer's request.

We all contribute voluntarily. A.net has no mandate to retain the work we have sent in under these conditions.That is indeed moving the goalposts after the game has begun.

I don't understand the statement about historians, pilots and others becoming dependent on the existance of an image on A.net. If it was that important to them they should have contacted the photographer and secured a personal copy of the image for themselves.

When I first started contributing photos to a.net, I went through a period of adjustment with the forums. In my opinion there is nothing more dangerous to this site than a forum that is out of control. The quantity and quality of the photos will mean little to a serious writer/researcher if he thinks he is getting involved in a relationship with a website he will regret because of the behaviour of its members. I went through a period when I felt this way. That feeling has never completely gone away. If, some day in the future, a new adminsitrator feels that "free speech" is more important than civil behavior, I may request all my photos be removed. It is, after all, my ball.
TomH
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:03 pm

Okay: Just a question: Which of these (quite similar) photos would you remove? :


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Florian Kondziela



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Brian Wilkes



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © David Wong



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Robert Holbach



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Brian Hill



(Those aren#t even the most striking similarities that could be found here - just an example...)

Personally, I would prefer if they all got a chance to stay - out of respect to the work invested by the photographers. It is bad enough getting rejections (after investing at least 30 minutes in every pic), but getting already accepted pictures deleted because someone else managed a better shot would seriously depress me...

Regards

Ikarus
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:24 pm

I wouldn't necessarly remove any. I find it quite funny though that the plane was photographed so many times in such a short period and in the same place.

This is where it would be interesting for everyone to include their equipment/scanner/film, because each of them is quite different in the way they come out.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
dee-see-eit
Posts: 293
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2000 8:44 pm

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Tue Apr 03, 2001 11:34 pm

Everything sound good to me!!

I'm very pleased to read that you will add the own personal "admin" page (I was one of those asking for it), where we can display info about us and also if we want to sell, trade, receive e-mails and so on. I'm interested also to see how others photographers look, if they add their photo to this special page!

Admins: Keep on the incredible fine work on this web!

DC8
 
administrator
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon May 17, 1999 5:11 am

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Wed Apr 04, 2001 12:10 am

Ikarus,

Let me clarify this part:

A photo can be removed when:
6) a better quality picture is available for the same aircraft, with the same registration, the same color scheme, and at the same location.

It should be:

A photo can be removed when:
6) The photographer requests to have it removed and a better quality picture is available for the same aircraft, with the same registration, the same color scheme, and at the same location.

Regards,
Johan
Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)
 
Guest

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Wed Apr 04, 2001 3:51 am

Johan,

Many Thanks for clearing that up.
I have to agree with Ikarus,
It would have been a little unfair to do what we all believed what was about to happen!

Cheers,
and keep up the great work,
Dave
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Important : Upload-FAQ No.30 Change Proposal

Wed Apr 04, 2001 6:21 am

Yes! Thanks for clearing that up! I was getting rather nervous...

Regards

Ikarus

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