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Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Wed Aug 01, 2001 3:47 pm

Cant understand the rejection politics

I have followed this discussion forum for a long time as it gives you many great tips
and ides for how to improve your self regarding aircraft photographing. During this time I
have read allot of posting regarding rejections of photos most of the time the subject
to why it was rejected is clearly understand and sometimes not.

Allot of people is spending countless of hours trying to get everything right and still
gets rejected due to ex: grain,dark,unsharp or you might try to sharpen the door handle 1mm x 1mm
it looks a little odd... and if your real lucky you can even get it thru without do anything.

Let me show one example of a new upload that made it thru:


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Scandpix



Don't take this wrong, I like all kinds of airline pictures including this one and i have nothing against the photographer.

And here is one that did not:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/aviation_photography/read.main/20443/

And there is lot of other great photos that didn't, just look in some of the postings. With all this
new high quality standard how can it be that someone can post a lot of low quality photos
and others cant even post one that's looks nearly perfect regarding grains,sharpness,lights,angle.

Beats me.....and I will never understand it either, until there is new guidelines for uploads or an
statement from the staff or the screeners.

Kind regards

Andreas
 
jwenting
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Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Wed Aug 01, 2001 3:55 pm

Rejection or acceptance of pictures depends in part on personal preference of the people doing the screening. So if someone does not like your photo for some reason he may reject it even though it is really good enough on technical reasons (maybe he will unconsciously be too harsh somewhere and judge that minute colourcast as being too much). This is only human.
Then there is the major factor of hardware. What looks good on my screen may look quite different on yours, depending on the screens we are using and the way they are set up (brightness, contrast, colour-rendition, lighting of the room, your position (distance, angle) relative to the screen) as well as our eyes (my eyes may not be as good as yours, causing me not to see some small detail or maybe you are slightly colourblind so you fail to see a discolouration that I do).
I wish I were flying
 
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Bruce
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Wed Aug 01, 2001 4:13 pm

I know what you mean. I uploaded recently a pic of a DL 727 at the moment of rotation. Great shot at just the right time! I didn't hear from the screeners like I did on the other ones..so maybe that one has a hair of a chance.


Bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
SH@VIE
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Wed Aug 01, 2001 6:52 pm

1) Personally I think that there shouldn't be "personal preferences of the people doing the screening". In my opinion it is quite important to have an clear guideline.

2) I don't know why some very grainy pictures are accepted and others which look perfect not...
I tried to upload a photo, 1st time it was rejected because it was not sharp enough, 2nd it was to grainy. So I (sometimes) don't understand the upload politics, too.

But I hope that I can improve my work and get a picture accepted  Smile

-stephan-
 
Blackened
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Wed Aug 01, 2001 8:44 pm

Are we allowed to post "bad" pictures from the db here?
I wonder how certain pictures made it to the db very often but usually we don't bash those pictures in the forums. It's Johan site and he decides if he wants to add pictures or not. I'm sure any official of this site will defend the upload policy at any rate so it's more or less useless to say anything against it.
Bring it back, bring it back, bring it back
 
Guest

RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:07 pm

I have never said that there is any bad photos in the DB just that there is a difference in quality with some newly accepted shots, and this one is an example to clarify it.

Regards

Andreas


 
Western727
Posts: 1428
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Wed Aug 01, 2001 9:43 pm

I have never said that there is any bad photos in the db...


Well, I will. I've noticed for a long time that there are a lot of photos in the DB that just don't deserve to be there. They have horrible lighting, grain, composition, and they are repeats - 10 of the same picture right in a row.

Ulvar, that picture of the Air Canada A330 (it was an A330, wasn't it?) was better than 75% of the photos in the DB. The lighting was great, the composition very dramatic, and it was nice and sharp. I think that you have a lot of artistic talent, so don't let a few rejections get you down.
Jack @ AUS
 
jwenting
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Wed Aug 01, 2001 11:30 pm

there are a lot of shots in the db that would not make it now under normal conditions.
Some are old, and would be rejected now. Some are rarities and make it because of that.
for example
Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © J.T. Wenting

which is an aircraft no longer in operation in a livery no longer there of which there is no other shot (neither the aircraft nor the livery).
I wish I were flying
 
b757300
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Thu Aug 02, 2001 12:32 am

Blackened, I wouldn't include any photos from the database and then criticize them. I've seen people have their username deleted for doing that. Even though I would love to ask why certain photos are accepted even though their quality sucks, I'm not going to give Johan a good reason to delete my username for the 3rd time. (I'm not talking about old or special photos, I'm talking about new ones that seem to get through no matter what but if I uploaded the same picture, I would be rejected ASAP.)
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
jwenting
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Thu Aug 02, 2001 4:40 am

That happens, especially with the travellist. These people get little or no screening and some get careless once in a while. I hope Johan takes note of that and adjusts the travellist if such thing happen more often.
I wish I were flying
 
Guest

RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Thu Aug 02, 2001 6:35 am

I'm sure this must be a cause for concern. The pictures on the travel list do not get vetted by us, but go straight for Johan to look at. I would say that in general, the vast majority of the photos submitted by people on the travel list are of high enough quality to be added, but I am sure the odd shot slips through that should probably be rejected.

I would also say that in general, there are a lot of borderline shots that are very difficult to judge. Until I became a screener I never realised what a difficult job Johan has. At least if I'm not sure whether to accept or reject, I get to pass the buck to him. But then again, as we have said before, this site is his baby, so he gets the final say. I don't envy him that final say, though.

And stuff on the travel list *does* get rejected, because I still get rejections. Being on the list is not carte blanche to submit whatever you like...

S4
 
Guest

That Clears It A Bit :-)

Thu Aug 02, 2001 3:08 pm

Thank you for taking the time to answer  Smile

Kind regards

Andreas
 
jwenting
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Thu Aug 02, 2001 3:52 pm

Never said the travellist does not get rejections, only that the chances of the odd bad apple getting by are greater because of the less stringent screening.
Some people may abuse this or get careless when preparing uploads when they have 100+ shots from the day and it is already 10PM. Don't say it happens, but the potential is there.
I wish I were flying
 
Zander
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Thu Aug 02, 2001 4:47 pm

Andreas,
I have now almost 1000 photos here at airliners.net and I think it's very difficult anyway to get photos accepted,
I still get quite many rejections.
That SAS-photo you showed in the top isn't of the best quality maybe, but I am very glad it went through even if you don't seem to like it.
It was SAS' first flight from its new destination (Washington) so maybe that's why it went through.
I know there are a lot of photos which have a even worse quality than my SAS-photo, but that's life.
I won't get up having more photos added because of that.

Alex
Scandpix
 
cfalk
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Thu Aug 02, 2001 5:03 pm

I know I'm on the travel list, but I still get rejections sometimes. They especially come when I get complacent  Wink/being sarcastic.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Thu Aug 02, 2001 5:35 pm

Oh no Alex ... that's not what I meant, as I wrote in my first posting, I do like this picture as most of what`s in the DB. Id just wanted to know what's makes some goes thru and others don't, so keep em coming (the pictures)  Smile

hmm I might need to improve my englih as it seams so many of you gets me wrong  Sad

Kind regards

Andreas

PS ! I am in no position to criticises any of the pictures in the DB as 99% of them is of a higher quality than my


 
Zander
Posts: 585
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Thu Aug 02, 2001 6:30 pm

Andreas,
It's no problem, I already understood what you meant from the beginning but I was quite surprised to see one of my photos being discussed here. That's why I had to write something to see how you react ; )

Alex
Scandpix
 
da Fwog
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Fri Aug 03, 2001 5:32 am

I think all of us (including those like myself who are on the travel list) have probably had pictures rejected that are better than some we see added. It's a fact of life. And it's really annoying when it happens to you!

The only difference is that after a long time of uploading photos, and having lots in the database, I am now a lot more relaxed about it. That didn't stop me getting upset when some flightdeck shots I managed to get earlier in the year were rejected, but there's nothing I can do about it. Apart from always striving to improve my photos, and learn from my mistakes.

And I now have a different attitude to when I first started. Back then, I just wanted to get lots of my photos in the database. Now I get a kick out of adding the best photographs I possibly can. If for every few photos I add I get a handful of emails from people who like them enough to bother writing to tell me, then I know I have done a good job.

Chris.
 
Blackened
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Sat Aug 04, 2001 7:38 am

Great attitude Chris and your pictures really reflect this. But some on the travel list still seem to have an attitude like you had when you started. This is not necessarily bad as long as the pictures are good quality but sometimes they aren't. I know Johan wouldn't like to hear this but I sometimes feel as if certain people who upload very many pictures get pictures added which would surely be rejected if there was another name on them (no comment needed cause I know it's hard to be 100% objective and you're doing a great job - otherwise we wouldn't spend hours watching the pics  Smile). Sometimes I'm dead sure but sometimes it's Ok cause we get to see some unusual, experimental pictures. I can remember I saw some baggage mountain from the ground to the ceiling in a building as a picture of the db. I guess it was a well known photographer but there was not even an aircraft visible. That was a bit odd in my eyes.
Bring it back, bring it back, bring it back
 
b757300
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Sat Aug 04, 2001 9:11 am

There is another photo in the database that is nothing more than a giant dust cloud. You can't even see the aircraft but it was still accepted. A thread was started about it once but both its creator and the thread itself were deleted.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
planeboy
Posts: 752
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Believe It Or Not

Sat Aug 04, 2001 12:07 pm

I think Johan has shown that he understands and allows a few lower quality photos into the database from lower quality photographers. Not to say that he plays favorites with anyone - as many complain about with the "travel list". I have seen many photos here, and a few by some of the "greatest" on this site still have some marginal photos "slip by". I would NEVER point to a photo in this forum and say "How did this one make it in?" Simply because, I have quite a few that should maybe not be here.

However, a better camera has recently become avaiable to me. And I can't wait to try it out on some flying machines....
 
Glenn
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Sat Aug 04, 2001 3:25 pm

What you mean this one


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Glenn Alderton



To date there are 574 hits on this photo. That makes it a couple of hundred people interested enough to look at it> I think it speaks for itself.

But here you go, here's the aircraft to make you happy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Glenn Alderton

Psst you can get a full page copy of this if you buy the currect copy of Pacific wings

Maybe this one could be bought under revue too as the image size is too small


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Glenn Alderton



It has only 200 odd hits, no where near as popular.

Maybe I should stay with these photos


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Glenn Alderton



At least 49 people have fallen over themselves to see this photo but I guerss it meat the criteria 100 % so we'll stick with photos that people don't want to see ??


 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Turbolet
Posts: 1867
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Sat Aug 04, 2001 5:47 pm

Well face it, that cloud does not show an aircraft so it's not an airliner photograph! And the fact that the aircraft is on the second photo is no excuse.
Just my two cents,
-turbolet
 
Glenn
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:33 pm

RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Sat Aug 04, 2001 6:38 pm

oh well, I guess you wouldn't be the 1 out of 500 to download it then.

That's your decision but why tell other people what they can and can't download.

Go with the flow
 
Jan Mogren
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Sat Aug 04, 2001 6:52 pm

It might also be that they are wondering where the h*** is the aircraft? It sure can't be seen on the thumbnail.
/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
Guest

RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Sat Aug 04, 2001 7:20 pm

Wow .. another whinging thread and there is B757300 smack bang in the middle of it .. why doesn't that surprise me?

If you don't like this site, then find another one to play on .. seems to me that having three accounts deleted would be an indication that you have overstayed your welcome.

Obviously you need the


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Glenn Alderton



shot explained to you .. it is a picture of a runway [that's a thing that planes land on]... fully within the scope of the upload requirements for this site... the fact that you don't like it is irrelevant, you are not the only person who uses the site. Do you (B757300) have any pictures online? Under what name because I keep hearing about how good you THINK you are .. i'd like to see how good you actually are ...

Gosh! .. this shot has no plane in it either ... guess by your way of thinking it shouldn't be online.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © ADG



But then, it went through the upload process and survived where many of it's brothers did not ... i'm quite proud of it .. it's one of only 9 I have online here, I dont' blame anyone but me for not getting the others online.

Isn't it about time you stopped these pointless whinges? Your childishness and jealousy is showing.!. and it's an ugly sight! [and I for one am really, really, really sick of seeing these threads] If you can't play with the big kids, take your toys and go find some little kids to play with ....



VH-ADG
 
PUnmuth@VIE
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Sat Aug 04, 2001 10:23 pm

Very well and to the point ADG!
Congratulations
Peter
-
 
b757300
Posts: 3914
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Sun Aug 05, 2001 12:09 am

Funny, I never insulted anyone and yet ADG has to act like a little kid and insult me.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
cicadajet
Posts: 816
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RE: Cant Understand The Rejection Politics

Sun Aug 05, 2001 1:14 am

While its clear that over time we have seen at least a few good images that have been rejected...a couple clearly on artistic disagreement..it has been shown that Johan *does* accept some unconventional shots...someone once went to the trouble of documenting numerous examples of many kinds in one these threads about a year or so ago... Now it may be that those examples tended a bit to be dramatic/spectacular or otherwise "pretty" perhaps..but its profoundly unfair to get the administrator both coming and going.. (ie: badger for a broadening in the scope of the criteria for acceptance but then criticizing when he does do this.."the dust storm").
AS for basic standards, the argument that someone else's flawed photo got through (and yes, indeed some do..some by "big names" etc..) so "therefore mine need to be accepted" is a downward spiral towards mediocrity. Should each flawed image become the new *standard* that we should all look at and try to get our own flawed images into the database? "Oh good, I have one about that bad, let me hurry up and add it". Or should we vote publically to "delete" images? ridiculous !!!
Lets be reasonable. One person cannot please thousands in each and every instance. As for the "politics"..I am not sure that is the right term. Many people have experienced having an image rejected at one time and then had it accepted upon resubmission some time later. I like to think this is indicative of a very substantial quality "borderline" and not a malevolent or capricious motive. On a final note though, while in a perfect world, regular contributors might have recourse to an "appeal" or two in a year, this is clearly not practical with the existing backlog...and I would caution against uploading rejected shots as a matter of course, because although they might be accepted on a 2nd go-around, there is a decent chance this practise will clog the queue - and perhaps cause irritation.

Tom
 
Blackened
Posts: 535
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The Stranger The Pic The More Hits!

Sun Aug 05, 2001 1:42 am

Jan Mogren might be right. One thing I've noticed is that strange pics get a lot of hits just because of what is written in the comment. Sometimes I find myself clicking on a pic in the 24-48 section just because of the comment - just because it makes me curious. And then I'm disappointed cause somebody wanted to stir attention with the comment.

ADG: B757300 was discussing quite seriously and you're being childish  Sad. Look at what you wrote - that's silly and I honestly doubt you're older than 15. Nobody ever said he's a great photographer by saying he doesn't like certain pics. This forum is about what you have to say and you're not more intelligent if you have more photos in the db. You don't even dare to write your name under your picture...and why the h... does an interior pic don't have an airplane in it? What do you think is that big metal thing around? BTW what do you have to say here? You got only 25 posts here.
You think you're more intelligent cause you're older.
If you can't play with the big kids, take your toys and go find some little kids to play with ....
What is that? You can't play with the truth so you'd better say nothing.  Pissed
Bring it back, bring it back, bring it back
 
cicadajet
Posts: 816
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 1:54 am

RE: Rejection

Sun Aug 05, 2001 2:04 am

While I think the criteria for accpetance is a reasonable topic, regrettably it does lend itself to unreasonable tones here. I know its disappointing to have a shot you are particularly fond of rejected..one you think someone might be interested in looking at..(hopefully that is the motivation anyway). But I don't think its reasonable to argue against ANY modicum editorial license. What qualifies is always going to be determined by some*one*'s standards..(someone ELSE)...and if you spend significant time shooting aircraft it would be rather sad if your "vision" didn't differ one iota from whoever is doing the judging. We've seen people practically call for a rejection button for "unmotivated" final approach shots. Many of *those* shots are fine in terms of quality...just an awful lot of them. There are many points of view. If all or many of your images are being rejected its really indicative of needing more practice/better equipment etc.. if only a few get rejected, perhaps its just a different sensibility. It would not be sinister to suggest that if someone that who submits 100s of well scanned well composed images sends in something out of the ordinary, that the administrator *might* give it a bit more consideration due to the source. If so, I would think that's only human...not rank favoritism. So, if one of the so called "big names" is able to push the boundaries, personally I am all for it.

Tom
 
Turbolet
Posts: 1867
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:23 pm

RE: Rejection

Sun Aug 05, 2001 4:55 am

Well, now that screeners have been introduced, I have yet another suggestion of improving the acceptance/rejection criteria. The problem now is that only one person (Johan) has the right to accept pictures to the database while seven or so people can reject them. Now, how's about each screener giving the shots a point rating say 1-10. If the rating would be under five, for example, the pic would be discarded. Otherwise it would be added to a queue where at least three people would view it and give it a rating in the same way. Of course, our dear Johan would be one of these people (we admit, this site is his creation so in a way he can do whatever he likes here). Now the average of these ratings would be taken and if it was over say 8, the picture would be accepted. This would make it much more objective.
Better still, the pics rated over five could be added to a temporary viewing area and voted for by say 20 registered users. They would then be either added or discarded.
These methods would make the selection a bit more objective in my opinion because more people would participate in the selections. The one for registered users is probably the least discutable because the "res publica" and voting system has been used successfuly since ancient Rome. Then maybe people would appreciate that this site listens to its visitors and not just to King Johan's orders  Smile/happy/getting dizzy.
That's my two cents.
-turbolet

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