LGW
Topic Author
Posts: 4281
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 6:07 pm

Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:59 pm

I had 76 photos on the upload page which had got through the first screening and I just got the final message from Johan, I got 3 accepted, 3 out of 76 photos which passed the pre-screen!

I am not saying they should have been accepted by Johan or blaming anyone but, there must be some questions need to be asked how the screeners can accept 76 of my photos and Johan only likes 3!

Sorry I just feel this is a huge amount of photos to be accepted once and not the second time

LGW
 
alphasierra
Posts: 34
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2001 9:59 am

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:08 pm

I would be very interested in the replies from screeners. I sympathise with you and hope I dont find myself in the same situation. I hope that potential A.netters do not read these postings and are subsequently put off the idea of posting on A.net.
 
LGW
Topic Author
Posts: 4281
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 6:07 pm

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:19 pm

Yes, because, as I say I don't blame anyone, I think the screeners do a wonderful job and if they think the photo looks OK then they pass it over I am just suprised at the gulf between the number accepted by the screeners and the ones accepted by Johan

LGW
 
Granite
Posts: 5026
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:55 pm

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:30 pm

Hi Ben

I will hold my hand up and say that I have screened some of your pics.

Some I have rejected and some I have accepted and passed on to Johan. The ones I have passed on to Johan would have been acceptable to my eyes.

Johan obviously had a different view on them.

Did you say that your pics were on CD?

I mentioned this before but you never replied.....if they are on CD, I am willing to have a play around with the pics and let you see the results. If you agree and send me the CD, I will copy and return ASAP or if you leave it with me I will 'process' all your pictures to my best ability, save and burn to CD and send back.

Don't feel bad, your pics are pretty good..........and I know what I am talking about  Smile

Let me know what you want to do.

Regards
Gary Watt
Aberdeen, Scotland

 
LGW
Topic Author
Posts: 4281
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 6:07 pm

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 4:39 pm

Hi Gary
Yes some of my pics are from CD, I am happy to send you CD to let you have a look at them, sounds good. Not all the photos are from CD's so you wont be able to mess around with some of them but I have a few that are

LGW
 
Granite
Posts: 5026
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:55 pm

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:02 pm

Hi Ben

I will e-mail you my postal address and you can send me any CD you have.

I will work on as soon as I get and transfer my results to CD and send back.

Hope this is OK.

Regards
Gary Watt
Aberdeen, Scotland
 
Sukhoi
Posts: 1561
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:03 am

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 6:28 pm

I think that this illustrates well that Johan wont give the screeners the capability to upload shots directly. If in their opinion the screeners thought these were "acceptable" shots (Probably some marginal ones in their too) and he rejects 99% of them its not going to happen any time soon.

Just shows that the addition of the screeners really hasnt helped the overall running of the site in the upload process for acceptable pictures.

Regards

Paul
 
Guest

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 7:13 pm

Paul,

On the contrary, the time saved for Johan is huge. I think I reject somewhere between 60 and 80% of the photos I screen (I expect other screeners are about the same), and that means that Johan only needs to view a fraction of the number of pics that come in. Of course, he gets the hard ones - the ones that we might ponder over for several minutes, deciding, "Yes or No", and finally saying "yes". We generally like to give the benefit of the doubt.

Just to give you an idea, I spend on average about 1 minute per picture (including load times, but I have a very fast connection). Many are easy - 5-10 seconds is enough. Some borderline cases I have to think about for 5 minutes or more. As Johan gets a lot of our borderline cases, he probably spends even more time on average than we do.

It is also possible that, apart from Johan's desire to raise the bar in accordance to advances in commonly available photographic and scanning technology, he may also be simply rejecting the worst of what he sees. Since he only sees the pictures that have passed pre-screening, that raises the bar significantly, and all the borderline pics that the screeners pass automatically become the bottom of the pile, even though they were better than 75% of the other pre-screening submissions.

I also think that over the past few months, the number of daily uploads has risen to the point that no single person could possibly screen them all on his own, unless he did it as a full-time job 12 hours per day, 7 days per week.

S2
 
Sukhoi
Posts: 1561
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:03 am

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:07 pm

S2,

Thanks for your response.

Sorry should have made myself clearer, I was talking about pictures that you had passed. I do understand that you have cut down on all the "crap" as Gary puts it  Wink/being sarcastic that Johan would normally have seen.

I totally agree with your statement about the number of uploads on the increase, looking at the upload page I think there are 3000 odd pictures in the queue again, presuemably most of this have been screened. (Yes I know the site is falling apart around Johan's ears so he hasnt had time to sort them)

What I was worried about was that the ammount of shots you guys had passed on to Johan that he rejected. From previous threads he had issued a tougher set of quality rules for you guys to go by, so why is he still rejecting so many shots that you have passed? Can you give me an idea of how many borderline shots you pass through as opposed to how many okay shots you pass through, 50 / 50??

Just trying to get an idea of what Johan sees and what his taste is like  Wink/being sarcastic

Cheers

Paul
 
Guest

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:59 pm

Paul,

Just a suggestion, until you improve your rate of acceptance, why don't you upload fewer photos at a time. Scanning 76 photo is a lot of work and must have taken a lot of your time. Personally I feel bad when someone new uploads a large amount of photos and I have to reject them all due to poor quality.

Personally when I upload my own photos, I still only do 10-20 at time. Pick out some of your very best photos and really work on refining your scanning techniques. Even if you have your photos put on a CD by your lab, you will probably need to clean them up a little with a photo editing program.

I have also screened some of your photos and noticed you have uploaded alot of tail shots. Shots like this are a lot harder to get accepted. They have to be really good shots or they will get rejected.

S6


 
Guest

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:00 pm

Paul,

I would say that around 25% (or maybe a bit more) of the pics we recieve are borderline cases.

Basically, you can split it like this:

5% - Excellent, upload quality without question
10% - not perfect, but should not cause a problem unless Johan is in an evil mood (hey, we all get up on the wrong side of the bed sometimes).
25% - Borderline, with a problem or two, but not so bad as to clearly take it out of the running. Generally fixable.
60% - Clear problems, some fixable, but most often not.

So if the screeners let half of the borderline cases go by, 72.5% get rejected outright, and the rest pass on. Unfortunately I have no way to see what percentage Johan rejects, but I suppose it is somewhere around a quarter of what he recieves or so, leaving about an 80% rejection rate.

These are all ballpark numbers, of course.

I have a question for you and others. Given that Johan seems to reject most of the borderline cases, would you prefer us to be more strict with them? Screener responses usually are very fast, and it would give you the opportunity to tweak it and re-upload. Or would you rather us to pass it on to Johan, and have to wait a long time for a response?

Of course, Johan will get upset if we start loosening our standards (unless you can convince him otherwise), but I would like your opinion on this.

S2
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
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RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:07 pm

Maybe add an option to give comments on shots you do pass, warning that a shot is borderline according to you or you think it is good enough but Johan might not like it for some reason.
That would give a headsup while still leaving the good cop/bad cop thing in place  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
I wish I were flying
 
Sukhoi
Posts: 1561
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Screener 6

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:11 pm

S6,

Were talking about LGW here not me! I only have 206 in the queue  Wink/being sarcastic

But you mention exactly what Im on about poor old LGW gets 76 shots through the screeners only for Johan to reject them all, how pi$$ed is he feeling?

Regards

Paul
 
paulc
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2001 10:42 pm

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:17 pm

Is it possible for the "tougher" set of quality rules to be posted ? for us mortals to view  Smile - just to give an idea of what to aim for / avoid in terms of quality. I know there are sample pics covering some aspects of this but how relevant are they to the new rules.

I also feel it is becoming more difficult to get an image past the screeners - let alone Johan  Big grin - not necessarily a bad thing but people will soon get fed up at getting rejected at the screening stage and so may not bother to upload - at least if Johan rejects an image you know it is 'almost' good enough and is worth trying to improve on.

Are the images given a score on various points such as subject, lighting, sharpness, in database etc leading to an overall 'pass' mark by which they get accepted at screening stage? - if yes then on rejected images would it be possible for these marks to be included with rejection message? - again to indicate areas that need to be improved. If no then is this something that could considered in the future?



English First, British Second, european Never!
 
Guest

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:31 pm

Unfortunately only Johan can give warnings without knocking the picture out of the queue. I frequently wish for that feature, but the mechanics of actually working it like that would be difficult and confusing.

Paul, I know what it feels like too. I once had 140 pictures in the queue and all got blasted  Pissed. That was the experience that provoked me into buying a slide scanner.

Recommendation to all uploaders:
In order to save time on-line, and to make sure you can easily re-upload a rejected-and-tweaked shot, you should keep your data somewhere. What I do is build a little Excel file where I import all the relevant info from my main database (msn, Registration, name, construction date, etc.), and type in any additional comments. Using text formulas, you can build your entire remarks section with this info and additional remarks, so that when you are on the upload page, all you do is cut and paste. It also gives you the possibility of reviewing and correcting all your comments before you get online. This process works so fast that I often will have 2 or 3 seperate upload pages open at the same time, because I'll be filling one out while the others are uploading. Then you keep the file in case you have to use it again for rejections.

S2

P.S. I just did a little screening a few minutes ago. The pre-screening queue is now empty (there were only 3 when I looked), so if you haven't recieved any e-mails, your pics are waiting for Johan.
 
Guest

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:32 pm

Sorry Paul, that is what I get for trying to type at 5 am after being up all night!

And yes I too would be pissed if I was in LGW's shoes, but that is why my suggestion to all is to upload fewer photos at a time. This way all or your hard work and time is not wasted. Now that the airliners.net database in so large, the emphasis now is definitely on quality and not quanity. Unless your shot is of something rare it must be of the very best quality to be added. True there are a lot of lesser quality photos in the database, but for the most part these are older uploads. Personally I am going through a lot of my older shots and rescanning them and re-uploading them. Most of my older shots would never make it past the screeners today.

S6
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
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RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 9:59 pm

S2, that is indeed a nice tip. Myself, I include most information in the filename (formatted REG-date-serialfordate), and for the type I keep a book open next to my screen (I don't upload so many at a time I forget which airline it is  Wink/being sarcastic ).

Thanks for letting us know our charges made it past the hounds and are now on the way to the evil Grand Vizier of this site  Big thumbs up
Only one last hurdle to overcome before we can claim the princess  Innocent
I wish I were flying
 
LGW
Topic Author
Posts: 4281
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 6:07 pm

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:05 pm

I know about uploading a few shots and see how they get on but, I am doing a lot of AMS/LHR/LGW/STN/LTN shots for my website so I though whilst uploading them to my site, why not have a go on airliners.net with the best ones, and when I was getting so many accepted by the screeners I though that the quality must be OK other wise most would be rejected

LGW
 
LGW
Topic Author
Posts: 4281
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RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:10 pm

Also, I am going back to collage on monday so after then I probably will have a lot less time to scan/upload etc so I tried to get most done before I start my A-Levels when I dont have anytime

and Paul - Yeah I did feel a little "Pi$$ed"! But as people always say, if you cant handle rejection dont upload to airliners.net so I didnt let it bother me

LGW
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:10 pm

"Evil Grand Vizier" ???

You're going to hell for that one!

Cheers,

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:18 pm

LGW,

"It ain't personal, It's just business." - Who said that?

Considering that you have your own web site, and that you'd like to improve your standing on this site, I think you'll need some kind of film/slide scanner in short order. Any chance of you picking up one soon?

Now that Slide scanners are starting to become more common, I have noticed very recently that a few used ones have appeared in shop windows (Never seen before).

S2
 
Sukhoi
Posts: 1561
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:03 am

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:19 pm

"and when I was getting so many accepted by the screeners I though that the quality must be OK other wise most would be rejected"

LGW has come up with what im sure a lot of people think. If the picture passes the screeners then its got to have a "reasonbly" good chance of making it to the database. I would guess everyone would do the same and add more pictures whilst they were being accepted.

Maybe S2's suggestion is right that they should be more stringent and reject the ones that are borderline, in LGW's case this would save a lot of his time and trouble.

Im just throwing ideas out here, now that everyone is used to the screeners original process maybe its time to extend their capability and that would help Johan. Or at least stop him pulling any more of his hair out with the server problems!

Regards

Paul
 
LGW
Topic Author
Posts: 4281
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 6:07 pm

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Tue Sep 04, 2001 11:02 pm

Yes, I feel that I have to either go 100% digital and get a really good digital camera or buy a film/slide scanner
dunno which, probably the latter

I really dont know much about film/slide scanners at the mo and I have just paid out quite a bit of money for my summer holiday next yeat to TFS, me and 5 other mates are goin out there for a couple a weeks for a relaxed holiday - yeah right!

Anyway cheers for your advice

LGW
 
Guest

RE: Screener6

Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:14 am


...Unless your shot is of something rare it must be of the very best quality to be added...

Mmmmm...have you seen some of the shots added from the travel list recently?

...there are a lot of lesser quality photos in the database, but for the most part these are older uploads...

Mmmmm...have you seen some of the shots added from the travel list recently?

Screen the travel list and do us all a favour please Mr. Screeners!!!

Thanks,
Dean  Innocent
 
Guest

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Wed Sep 05, 2001 4:54 am

Ditto Dean.
My thoughts too.
 Innocent x  Innocent =  Innocent
 
Guest

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Wed Sep 05, 2001 6:21 am

Lets not turn this discussion into yet another attack of the travel listers.
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Wed Sep 05, 2001 7:29 am

Guys i agree. But i think we should look at the prescreeners. Maybe they shouldn't give the benefit of the doubt, and reject some that maybe johan would accept. Then the photographer could spend a bit of time making the photo immaculate and re-submit it, and get it accepted by both.

Or at least say, "this photo might be good enough to get onto the database already, but just try and up improve and then upload again".

I dunno, its all pretty tough.

Ben - upload less pics at once Big grin

Regards

Dan (your humble "ametuer" photographer  Big grin)
 
User avatar
BO__einG
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RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Wed Sep 05, 2001 7:31 am

OUCH!!

Thats is gotta hurt to see all that gone down!
I dont have anyhting to say, these guys including screeners made it all clear.
Upload less and do try n go for a slide scanner,,
Then ur problems will cease and u wont stress yourself out so much.
The farthest I went was about 30 picts all at once.. All Rejected! I cant stand being hooked on to this uploading picts after picts for HOURS!!
Right now, I uploaded 20 and aobut 13 made it in, I thinkit was alright results I guess, UNfortuenatly I wasnt happy that one of my very favorite shots was not added due to "similar" reason  Sad

I thought it was a really cool pict.. Maybe Ill post thiso n URL afterwards to show u guys.

Bo
Follow @kimbo_snaps on Instagram or bokimon- on Flickr to see more pics of me and my travels.
 
TimMSP
Posts: 216
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2001 11:35 am

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Wed Sep 05, 2001 8:27 am

I guess at this point in my photography experience I would be happy with passing the first initial screening. So far I've had 2 of about 15 pics make it past the first screening.

I go the rejection email from Johan today stating that they were not uploaded.

Hurray! LOL!

Tim
 
F27
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 11:59 pm

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:24 pm

As always the travel list has to be bought into this. Why cannot people learn that the guys on the travel list have done the Apprenticeship and had not many rejected over a very long period and now it is up to the younger Generation to try and get the same results. So for once in your lives lay off the travel list all the time and get on with producing QUALITY not QUANTITY
 
jwenting
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RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Wed Sep 05, 2001 3:08 pm

F27, everywhere else it is a fact of life that only the moment counts. If you send a shot to a magazine for publication they certainly won't print it only because they already printed 1000 of your shots in the past, they will still treat it like a shot from someone that's never sold them a shot before.

You go on to say that the rest of us should go for quality instead of quantity, so why not the people on the travellist?

Note that I have nothing against such a list, but it is a fact that the standards for them are either lower or not enforced as strictly as they are for the rest of us, and that does not make people happy in general (especially as it is clearly stated that the same standards apply to everyone).
I wish I were flying
 
Sukhoi
Posts: 1561
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:03 am

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Wed Sep 05, 2001 4:15 pm

Dean,

You must be a member of the younger generation  Big thumbs up

I think you have upset F27 wasnt their pictures you were on about was it? Big grin

I think your have to stay behind after school tonight!!

Cheers

Paul

Jwenting well said btw
 
Guest

RE: ADG / F27...

Wed Sep 05, 2001 4:54 pm


I'm certainly not knocking those on the travel list...only the procedures with regard to processing shots from those on the list.

Jwenting well said!!!  Big thumbs up

Paul...yes, I will be staying after school.  Crying

And to close...I certainly also advocate a "trickle feed" of shots. I rarely upload more than four or five a week now. Sadly by the time they get processed there can be 15 or 20 in the queue though...  Big grin

Cheers,
Dean
 
Guest

RE: Me -> Screeners -> Johan - Something Wrong

Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:23 pm

This thread is turning into a whingefest.

Can it be archived?

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