KCLE
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:03 am

I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:33 am

I tried to upload a pic I took at CLE last week, it's of a WN 732 at dusk, and I uploaded the pic 2 times, one as original, and one as sharpened. Both were rejected, the first too blurry, the second to sharp. The normal message says use Photoshop, well I don't have photoshop, and I never plan on getting photoshop, since I spent $80.00 on Ulead photoImpact 6. And there is no "middle" between normal and the first step of sharpness. You just have three stages of sharpness, light, middle, and lots. I only used light. So, I do not plan on even attempting to upload pics here anymore, and if someone would be so kind as to point me to an alternate website for uploading airliner pics, where people use whatever photo editing program they have, and not be segregated to the eight wonder of the world, Adobe PhotoShop, I'd very much appreciate it.
 
yhu
Posts: 421
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:43 am

I only recently started using photoshop, and it makes no diference as to the photo getting accepted or rejected. Remember, for all Johan and the Screeners know you are already using Photoshop. They just use that one as a suggestion as it is the most popular and well known program. On Mac I also use Graphic Converter, which is a shareware product and does a good job. You don't NEED to use Photoshop to get photos accepted by Airliners.net.

Dave
 
Guest

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:45 am

Can you provide a sample of your phots(s)?
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:48 am

"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Guest

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:54 am

With Ulead's Photo Impact you should be able to (with lots of patience and practice) get good enough quality images for uploading to airliners.net. First of all scan your photo at the max dpi and save as a .bmp or .tif file. Then sharpen the photo first and do your other touch up work, Then re-size your photo to 1024 dpi wide. At this point you can try sharpening one more time but sometimes it will be too much. As the very last step, save the image as a .jpg file. The biggest mistake people make is to save the original scan as .jpg and then do all the work on it. Once you save as a .jpg is very difficult to make quality adjustments to the photo.

Richard Silagi
 
KCLE
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:03 am

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 3:14 am

Ok, here is a sample. These two pics are the same one, except one is normal and the other sharpened.





I personally don't see very much wrong with these, how bout you?
 
G-CIVP
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RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 3:32 am

I think someone might mention the "G" word. :-(
 
LGW
Posts: 4281
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 6:07 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 3:40 am

The quality is LOW nd I feel these shots have no chance, sorry

LGW
 
Guest

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 3:41 am

Kcle, this is the minimum quality your phots should be to gurantee an acception to the database:


Your photo is interesting but you need to find someone with a film scanner to do the scanning for you. Its the quality of the scanner thats killing you, not nesserily(sp?) the quality of your photos.
 
Guest

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 4:09 am

Even with a good scanner it would make no difference.
That is poor light. Poor light = low image quality.
Forget those shots and move on.
Even if I stood beside you and shot that airplane I wouldn't even consider sending it into a.net.

Get confidence by submitting shots taken on a sunny day with the sun behind you.

Gerry/EDI


 
Guest

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 4:24 am

To Kcle

...also, I'm not an expert Adobe Photoshop ~ $500 software user either.
Did you miss my post last week?

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/aviation_photography/read.main/23766/

Excellent sofware with unsharp mask filters for nothing ($0)

Gerry/EDI

 
flpuck6
Posts: 2047
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 1999 12:32 am

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 4:24 am

Tips for better quality photos:

1) avoid long telephoto zoom shots
2) take photos in good weather, blue skies, minimal clouds
3) the sun MUST be behind you.
4) the plane must fill the frame of the photo
5) the plane must be CENTERED
6) catching the plane at its main gears on taxi shots
7) side or 3/4 front for approach shots
8) straight horizon
9) sharp, no tunnel edges, no clutter, and registrations visible

We are all striving for a better shot...keep at it. I have been shooting for 8 years now and I still manage to waste film and come up with the bad shots!
Bonjour Chef!
 
User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 4934
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

Dont Give Up

Sun Sep 09, 2001 5:29 am

hey..KCLE, how many photos before this one have you tried to upload? if not many, don't worry. Keep trying to improve your skill when you take the picture.

I don't photoshop can help this. it looks like bad light conditions near dusk. Try shooting in a sunny day.

what kind of camera do you use?

I've had over a hundred rejections like that. We all have. Just recently I've started having luck with uploads. I had none accepted from 12/99 to last month! i got a new camera (entry level SLR) and followed the good tips from the photogs on here. Keep reading these posts and follow some of the tips.

CYKA, that is a nice photo but that is not the minumim required. There are some on the database recently not as sharp as that. but your photo shows the kind of light conditions & shot framing that KCLE should try for.

As for photoshop, yes it is a good program because instead of regular sharpening it allows you to use an "unshark mask" and "sharpen edges". I can point you in the direction where you can get ps for free.
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
KCLE
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:03 am

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 1:52 pm

Well, I've uploaded about a dozen now, and this dozen were my absolute best shots. Getting good photgraphy weather here in CLE is rare. The only public spotting places feature the sun in front of you. The sunniest days of the week are days I can't go and spot, and it's always cloudy in Cleveland.

My scanner is an HP ScanJet 2100 C. An earlier post said to scan at a high dpi, so, I'll try scanning a nice pic of the Blue Angels I took at the Air Show here last week, at 2048 X whatever dpi, and then shrink it to 1024 after I try sharpening, then I'll post that.

My camera is not too big of a telephoto, only 80-200 mm. The camera is a prehistoric Pentax SuperProgram, with manual everything, from shutter speed, and aperture setting, to film advancing and rewinding.
 
KCLE
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Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 11:03 am

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:20 pm

Ok, this is the product of scanning at 3 times the size, at a width of 3072 pixels. It still doesn't look good because of this jpg compression thing I have. Whenever I save a pic as a jpeg, it automatically brings up a box and I have to compress it. I have the slider at 100%, which means it will be saved as a rather large file, with high quality, but once I upload it online, it looks like dog crap. Any clues now.



Clearly you can see the US Navy and Blue Angels titles, but I'm sure that's not enough, even though there are only 7 pics of them.
 
User avatar
Bruce
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RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 2:28 pm

You should be able to get results using that kind of equipment & lens. You don't need more than 200mm.

You say the only spotting places have the sun in front of you? The sun (or rather the earth) moves. If the spotting area faces east, then shoot late in the day. if it faces west then you've got to shoot early in the day. But the mid-day sun isn't "right in front of you". The sun is never in front of you all day.

The summer down here too has mostly hazy days so I feel your pain. I wish I had blue sky! But you can still shoot on an overcast day. Try not to get too much of the sky in the shot - shoot tight on the plane. Use quality film like Fuji Reala that has better contrast. Here's a pic that looks like mid-day sun, and on a hazy sky day:

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Jason Whitebird


and how about this for overcast:

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Michael D Bunosky



Just keep on tryin'

Bruce

Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
vaman
Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 10:53 pm

Your scan quality is low. I have good pictures now but i'm not even going to try because of my crap flatbed. I'm waiting and accumalating good pictures for until i get a good scanner. Your pics are way to granny. But and lightning poor. The scanner is the main problem. Take a look at one of my attemps with a bad scanner. You will see i got much of the same results or worse. Remember the original shot was crisp adn clear. http://www1.airpics.com/showimg.php?imgid=12734
I hope this helps but you really need a neg scanner for higth quality images.
VAMAN
 
jwenting
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RE: I Give Up!

Sun Sep 09, 2001 11:45 pm

Even a good scanner can give those results, depending on the film used.
Not all films give good results when scanned.

You can try using "despeckle" before sharpening, but it might loose you detail leading to a blurry picture.
I wish I were flying
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 1:30 am

And some more examples of adverse weather:

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © J.T. Wenting



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © J.T. Wenting


both on a very rainy day, taken between showers.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © J.T. Wenting



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © J.T. Wenting


during late afternoon haze

Unless you live in a dry and sunny climate with little or no precipitation, expect more work on the scans and more rejections.
I wish I were flying
 
Aer Lingus
Posts: 1217
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 4:06 am

RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 2:08 am

Slán Leat (pronounced "Slawn Lat") - Irish for good riddens

Moaners......we have enough of them
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 3:34 am

CYKA - thats an excellent picture, and the quality can be alot worse than that to get accepted!!!

I have the same problem, i have one word, and people tell you all the time, "patience".

This is something that you can do for your whole life, you don't need to be really good, right away!!!

Keep tryin, we all feel down after rejections, or our scanner/camera/conditions aren't good enough.

Regards

Dan
 
Aer Lingus
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RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 4:18 am

Hmmmmmm....... maybe I was a tad too harsh there
 
EGGD
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RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 4:36 am

I think i overused the space bar...
 
ckw
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RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 6:37 am

The Blue Angels shot shows signs of a slightly underexposed original being "corrected" in the scan - basically, the scanner is trying to generate more shadow detail than there is in the original, and hence has produced a lot of "noise" in the image (not film grain).

This may be saved ... try letting the initial scan stay a bit on the dark side, then in post processing, adjust just the midtones using tone curves or gamma correction - i don't know if Photoimpact has this, but if not, you could always get Gimp, which is free.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
AndyEastMids
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:24 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 8:04 am

I'm not trying to specifically single out KCLE in what I say here, but there's a fundamental problem that a lot of [what I'd call] newbies here have... They submit photos that are taken on at best marginal days, or even bad days, weather wise. Or pics that were shot with the sun behind the subject. Or whatever... And then the photos are rejected... Well, quelle surprise!

Take it from someone who's been in the business for the best part of 20 years... We all tried to take photos on days like that [the first two Southwest 737 pics] and if we are striving for quality, as most of us are, sooner or later we realised that only in exceptionally rare circumstances will photos taken in bad weather, or with the sun behind the subject, deliver quality results. We've been there, seen that, done that... and failed, countless times. Sooner or later, we realised and made a decision as to whether we should take pics on days like that and keep the results to ourselves, or whether to just leave the camera in the bag. That's life. At first its difficult, but over time the decision gets easier because you realise you're often wasting money using film on such days. Those of us who contribute regularly to airliners DO NOT contribute anywhere near the majority of the pics we take - a high proportion of our pics we keep to ourselves and never uploaded them to airliners - those that we don't upload are the ones we took on bad weather days like that (and for other reasons which result in "failures" too!!!).

Gerry provided some very very meaningful advice earlier on in this thread:

That is poor light. Poor light = low image quality.
Forget those shots and move on.
Even if I stood beside you and shot that airplane I wouldn't even consider sending it into a.net.
Get confidence by submitting shots taken on a sunny day with the sun behind you.


Bluntly, until you can get pics that were taken on sunny days with the sun behind you accepted, you are very unlikely to get anything else accepted. Move on. Until you've got a world of experience, on days like that, leave the camera at home and wait for a nice day. I know that might be tough if you live in an area where there's not much good weather, but hey, I live in the UK so I'm no better off most of the time!

Good luck,

Andy
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3686
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 8:39 am

'Halleluiah....preach it brother Andy!'......

However, I have a feeling that your words will fall upon deaf ears. When you are KCLE's age patience is not something that you have an abundance of.

Thomas

"Show me the Braniffs"
 
KCLE
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RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 11:52 am

You are correct, I have little patience, but I have experimented, and have come up with these following scans, by messing around with all the things, emphasize edges, blur, sharpen, unsharp mask, I've created two new monsters. Take a look and give me the dirt on what's wrong with them.



 
User avatar
Bruce
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RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 2:47 pm

OMG!!! waaaaaaayyyy too blurry!

Looks like it might have been decent lighting....but the top pic is extremely heavily pixelized on the sky part. Over-sharpened perhaps.

Does the actual print look like this?

In the bottom pic it looks like the top part of the plane was over-exposed. If the sky was extreme sunshine then your camera may have been fooled. does the camera have auto-exposure?

In extreme sunshine, #1) use a polarizing filter if your camera can accept filters, and #2) use ISO100 film

bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
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RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 3:56 pm

top one seems scanned from a newspaper.
Both are way overexposed and very blurry.
Especially the B-1 seems badly out of focus.
The C-17 can possibly be saved with a lot of work. Play around with levels and filters (especially "sharpen edges"). Scanning again with different settings until you get a better starting product is probably required though.
I wish I were flying
 
da Fwog
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 5:25 am

RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 8:27 pm

I don't think either can be saved. Badly exposed, poor detail. Just plain nasty. (sorry - you did ask)

There's plenty of good advice on this thread from plenty of different people.

Pics always look better with the sun shining full on the aircraft. And the public areas often give poor results compared to other places you might find. You need to go to a little trouble to either be at the public area at a time when the sun is mostly behind you (and therefore shining on the right side of the aircraft), or else find a spot somewhere else where the sun will be behind you - most airports offer SOMEWHERE to shoot from, and in the US you have an advantage that in most airports you can get through the security check to the gate area, where there is usually glass to shoot through, even if you are not travelling.

At the moment, everything is against you: for a start, using a flatbed scanner, you need the very best quality originals in order to get them accepted. You need to have good quality prints that are SHARP before you start. If you look at a full-frame 737 shot, for example, then if the fuselage detail isn't SHARP on the print, you probably won't get enough detail in the scan. (Can you read the reg. number, for example?)

As a first step in improving things, you must WANT to take better pics (do you want better quality pics, or just a site that will accept the quality you have now?). Second step: get to the airport on a SUNNY day, at a time when the sun will be behind you so the aircraft will be well lit. Or else explore, and see if you can find somewhere else at the airport that will give you the view you want, with the sun in the right place. Then try photographing aircraft taxying (slow movement - less to go wrong). See if you can get them either completely side-on, or mostly side-on, and try to mostly fill the frame.

Your camera is manual focus, so pay special attention to getting the focus right. If an aircraft is taxying slowly, you probably have a few seconds in which you can fine-tune the focus to get it as sharp as possible. Make sure that your shutter speed is a MINIMUM of 1/focal length of your lens: in other words, if you have your zoom set at 200mm, your shutter speed should be at LEAST 1/200, higher if possible. Hopefully, you will be using fairly slow print film - ISO 100 is best; if you can't get that then ISO 200, and use Kodak or Fuji if you can, not cheapo Polaroid, or K-Mart own brand film. This should give you better colours and less grain.

You need to put all these things together in order to get a good pic. When you get your photos processed, you might consider getting prints done to 7x5" rather than 6x4", as your scanner should be able to pull more detail from these. When you get your pics back, you need to look at the results with a critical eye. If they are not well-exposed (too light or too dark), don't scan them. If they are not crisp and sharp, don't scan them. Basically, if the original is not of high quality, you can't put that back when scanning and editing your shot.

I hope this whole thread helps you. There are some people who will say "we are fed up of people like you moaning, get lost and go someplace else". However, there are also plenty of people like myself, Ckw, EDIpic, Granite, Cyka, and many others who would rather take the time to write these sort of responses to encourage you. You don't need to give up, not if you want to take better shots. Most people can do it with practice, some patience, and a few helpful tips. I would also offer the following: nobody started out as a good photographer - we all had to learn. And you learn by taking pictures for yourself, and taking advice from people who have already been there. We've all been there, we've all taken TERRIBLE pictures, and we all decided we wanted to do better, and we learned from our mistakes.
 
AndyEastMids
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:24 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 9:12 pm

One of the most difficult tricks / skills to learn is when NOT to take a picture, or at least when its not worth taking a picture

We all get opportunities from time to time that seem great through the viewfinder, only to discover the results don't deliver a return on what we originallyn saw. I actually suspect that most camera viewfinders are rose-tinted!  Nuts

Andy
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 10:53 pm

To add to what da Fwog said about good prints, prepare to pay for them.
The prints from the local supermarket or drugstore are not good, go to a good photographystore and get them done there.
I pay about $0.40 per print, and the difference shows. Better colours, sharper, exposure correct, etc.
Check what equipment the printing is using. Kodak film seems to not print as good on Fuji equipment as the other way around.
I like the results of having Fuji printed on Agfa machines.
I wish I were flying
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: I Give Up!

Mon Sep 10, 2001 10:56 pm

After all the help i have been given i am the A.net photography rejections Councellor  Smile
 
Guest

RE: I Give Up!

Tue Sep 11, 2001 7:41 pm

Why take pictures like everyone elses, KCLE? Just to get them accepted on Airliner.net? That's the worst reason.

Ninety percent of the pictures in the data base are tainted with the same dullness, taken at 45 degree angle, with the sun behind you, centered blah, blah blah.

Very nice pictures can be made when its foggy, rainy or just plain hazy. You just have to keep taking as many frames as you can and getting good scans.

I would do your own thing and avoid what many of these "Pros" tell you to do. They seem to be either very arrogant or very uncreative.

 
Glenn
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:33 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:17 pm

yes take advice from a non expert your own style is good but take advice from those that also get their photos uploaded and not those that can't
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:29 pm

I'm certainly no pro  Wink/being sarcastic and the same goes for most of us, but if someone asks what it takes to get a shot accepted that's the advice he/she gets.
I don't care much about shooting only to get shots accepted here, I like weird angles (frontal, climbout shots from behind) and often shoot with adverse light (sun of to the side or even in front, overcast skies, mainly because that's the conditions when I have an opportunity to go shooting).
Most of those do not fall in the category "standard" shots with lighting that a.net favours but they are my favourites.
I wish I were flying
 
AndyEastMids
Posts: 1051
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 10:24 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:56 pm

I would do your own thing and avoid what many of these "Pros" tell you to do. They seem to be either very arrogant or very uncreative

Yes, well, very deep and meaningful that was, JonPaulGeoRngo. I'm sure the many "pros" here do have their own style, but they were providing advice on how to overcome a rejection problem that KCLE was having, not commenting on his general style.

Many of the regular photographers here take photographs that they are pleased with, but that they don't upload because they don't fit with the airliners.net style. However, given that this forum is on airliners.net, it seems only reasonable to deal with the issue as raised and provide feedback related to getting pictures accepted here.

Don't shoot the folks who are trying to help. One day, JonPaulGeoRngo, you might want to upload some pictures to this site and have problems, and then you might find the "pros" you've just insulted are less that willing to help you.

Andy
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: I Give Up!

Tue Sep 11, 2001 9:03 pm

As the song goes

"You gotta pay the dues if you wanna play the blues and you know it don't come easy"

In other words, until you can get consistently good shots in "ideal" conditions, you don't have much of a chance in other situations. By all means, bend, break the rules (that's what art is all about) but it sure helps to understand the what and why of those rules in the first place.

Cheers,

Colin

Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2000 6:38 pm

RE: I Give Up!

Tue Sep 11, 2001 9:03 pm

Creative shots are of course more interesting and rewarding. But you need to learn to walk before you learn to run, and I would strongly recommend getting the hang of "standard" shots and the processes of scanning and processing, before branching out and going for the fancy stuff.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: I Give Up!

Wed Sep 12, 2001 5:38 am

I try to take creative shots, they please me so i don't care if they don't get accepted to A.net

Regards

Dan

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