christianbothe
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2000 7:03 pm

I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 3:06 am

This is a story about copyright violation. Here goes:

On October 4th a Tu-154 of Sibir, RA-85693, of which I happen to have uploaded a picture to the airliners.net database some time ago, crashes into the Black Sea.
On Sunday I get an email from a friend with congratulations for my succes, to have the Bild newspaper print my picture on the front page. (The Bild, for those who do not know, is by far the biggest German daily newspaper; I don't know how many millions of copies they sell every day.) He asks me how much they had paid me. I was quite surprised and had to answer that actually they did not pay me anything, and they did not ask me if they could use it, too.
So I went to get the Friday's newspaper (not too easy on a Sunday evening), and finally found one in a trash can at a bus stop. It turned out to really be my picture. Later that day I visited the newspaper's homepage, and there they used the picture as well. I wrote an email to them, asking them where they got that picture from. No reply. Today, I just sent off a second email confronting them with the suspicion that they used my picture without my permission.

If you like to compare and judge for yourself, this is the original photo:

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Christian Bothe


and here is the page of their archive with their picture of the aircraft:
http://www.bild.de/service/archiv/2001/oct/05/news/absturz/absturz.html

It isn't about money. I got a request from a small Ukrainian newspaper about the same picture, and I allowed them to use it, since I know the independent media in Ukraine are not having an easy time now, and if I can support them, I will. What really makes me angry is the total lack of respect for other people's work.

I'm really curious how this is going to develop. I am... well, the title of this post says it all.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy christian
 
Aer Lingus
Posts: 1217
Joined: Sun May 14, 2000 4:06 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 3:17 am

Sue them, and i'm not joking. This is copyright infringement, a serious offence for any company to be involved in. Approach them with a lwayer and i'm sure that would scare them enough to come to some sort of out-of-court settlement.

Good luck Christian in whatever action you decide to take and please keep us up-to-date on what becomes of this incident

Cheers,
Martin
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2888
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 3:32 am

If it truly is your shot, I would suggest sending them an invoice first before going the lawyer route. Send it along with tons of documentation, directly to their accounts/billing department. Of course, if that doesn't work then you'll have to work much harder. Good Luck!

Michael
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:21 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 3:56 am

I would also claim money from them, otherwise media will look at airliners.net as a free image library and that would cause the proffesional photographers alot of damage.

Regards,

Staffan
 
Cliffie
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2000 4:59 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:08 am

If its not about money. take it easy and smile. Hey.. which of us made it to a front page? Millions of Germans (and not only they) like to read what they believe is true. The "Bild" prints yesterday (eve) what we've gotta think today (morning) in the "All are shocked about" form. W/out asking any of course.

What kind of probity to you expect from such papers?

Ingo
 
mirage
Posts: 3612
Joined: Mon May 31, 1999 4:44 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:10 am

It's a constant problem. Sometimes publications need urgent photos for their articles, urgent for these people is a question of hours. So they come here, save the image they want and publish it, not caring about the photographer.

What can we do? This is really disrespectful.

Luis
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:21 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:11 am

I would love to have my photo on the frontpage, but I would appreciate if they asked first!

Regards,

Staffan
 
aerodrome
Posts: 33
Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2001 1:36 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:50 am

It is obviously your picture Chistian, they used a digital extension but the source is yours. I would recommend to set a term to pay a appropriate price. If they don't react ask a lawyer what to do.

Good luck!


 
nscaler
Posts: 236
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 2:00 pm

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:51 am

Is it not possible that since you allowed the Ukrainian newspaper to use it, other papers throughout the world can use it via a service if the paper is part of say AP or Reuters? Maybe I'm wrong; that is a question for Mark or Thomas. My understanding was that if the newspaper is part of one of those, any other member newspaper can use that photograph.

Saul
 
TomH
Posts: 950
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 4:13 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:53 am

Christian,
They have stolen your property. It doesn't matter if you choose to give the image to a Ukrainian newspaper without charge, as that is your business. I would do exactly what Mikephotos suggested, invoice them. I would make the amount you request from them
no less than $500.00 USD equivalent, and advise them if they do not pay right away you will be seeking legal assistance to sue them, in which case you will charge no less than $1000.00 USD equivalent PLUS legal fees.

TomH

 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 4:59 am

DO NOT TOLERATE THIS!!!!!!!
Send them a heavy invoice. It is of course going to cost them a LOT more when they used it without asking!!! And do not smile about having it on the front page. A newspaper knows *very well* that they can't behave like that!
Don't let them get away with it!!
/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
sharpnfuzzy
Posts: 557
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 6:32 am

Did they provide a source of the graphic at all?... Because if they said that their source is the Ukranian paper then I think that what Nscaler said applies. I know that papers credit lots of pictures to Reuters and then on the Reuters site is the actual credit to the photographer.
 
KingWide
Posts: 698
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 7:30 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 8:43 am

Could I suggest calling the picture editor at the paper first? Talk to him/her explain the situation and ask for twice their standard rate for non-approved usage. I'm sure he won't care about paying you since it's not his money.

In my experience, picture editors tend to be very bad at answering e-mails but much better on the telephone.

If you still don't get any joy then advise you will be sending an invoice and then get a lawyer on it.

Most of the time, these things can be sorted out just by a phone call.

J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
Sonic99
Posts: 625
Joined: Sun Jun 03, 2001 8:39 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 10:55 am


There's a caption at the bottom of the page that reads:

FOTO:
dpa, CNN


Hmmm....
 
2912n
Posts: 1978
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:12 pm

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 1:19 pm

If in fact you can show that this is your photo it is protected by copyright. Do not give that right away! Copyright laws exist to protect writers, artists, photgraphers, etc...You can bet that if you used one of the stories from that paper and did not give credit and get permission to run it, plus made money from it they would be all over you.

It is NOT about money, it is about protecting your property, which at some point could turn into money. Talk to the paper, but be ready to confront them with a lawyer. Good luck.
 
serge
Posts: 1903
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 2:01 pm

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 1:48 pm

DPA: http://www.dpa.de.. appears to be a news agency...
 
skyliner
Posts: 203
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2001 4:07 am

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Tue Oct 09, 2001 8:17 pm

By all means, send them a bill. If they got it from an agency, then they can try collecting from the agency. It looks like others may have used it, as well. The Bild would not hesitate to enforce its copyright; you need to do so with yours, also.
George
 
sharpnfuzzy
Posts: 557
Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: I Am So Pissed Off Right Now...

Wed Oct 10, 2001 1:51 am

This might help you to track your picture:
http://www.dpa.de/en/produkte/bild/index.html
My guess is that it went to the Ukranian paper, then to the EPA, then to the DPA, and then to the German paper. From the looks of it the newspaper itselft did everything legally it bought the graphic form the DPA and credited it.

"dpa is a member of the epa European Pressphoto Agency and has full access to the European and international sources of this organization which is maintained by 14 national European picture agency members"
 
christianbothe
Posts: 123
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2000 7:03 pm

Thank You

Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:26 am

Thank you all...
The "copyright CNN/dpa", as I read it, is for the pictures below the aircraft picture, CNN for the left one, and dpa for the graphic with the map showing the flight route.
No response so far. Man, this used to be just some guys having nothing better to do than standing at the airport fence all day, and now...

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy christian

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