ckw
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Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 8:11 pm

Folks, anyone interested in this topic should visit this web page and read the report and related comments

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/d30_vs_film.htm

It's sure got me thinking!

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
ericp
Posts: 53
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 9:02 pm

RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 8:30 pm

Here's a quick, subjective comparison of film vs digital, shot under pretty trying conditions :

Fuji S1
Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Andrew Hunt



Provia 100F
Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Eric Phan



Granite should have exactly the same shot, from his D30 ... Gary, would you mind posting it here ?

That Provia shot took quite a bit of fixing, and you'd probably understand why if I tell you that we shot _into_ the sun  Smile

After looking at the results, that push to get a digital SLR body just got stronger  Smile

Eric
 
Granite
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 8:37 pm

Hi Colin

Very nice article indeed.

I have to agree on the printing of D30 images. I have done some from my Singapore trip and no grain can be seen whatsoever. Only 'grain' to be seen is from the dots the printer shows.

A HP 720C is what I am currently using but after doing some window shopping in Singapore while waiting for Mr Hunt to park the car, I spotted a very nice Epson photo printer. Cannot remember the model number but the quality of the sample print was excellent.

Digital v Film is always has its pro's and con's but I have to conclude in saying that I will probably not go back to prints. Yes, I will still keep some print film, Kodak Professional, in my bag and use it when I feel the need to.

So Colin......you buying a D30 Big grin

Regards

Gary Watt
Aberdeen, Scotland


 
Granite
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 8:39 pm

Hi Eric

Yes, I have the D30 image of the UPS MD11. Don't think I have one at the same angle but very similar.....I did not want the same as you guys Big grin

I'll post it over the weekend.

regards

Gary
 
ckw
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:15 pm

Well Gary, I think the answer is YES, the only remaining question is when  Smile

The only thing that's really holding me back is that the EOS 3 is, I believe, a superior camera, particularly with regard to autofocus - otherwise I might be very tempted to trade one of 'em in aginst a D30. I'm thinking of hiring a D30 for a week or so to use in the field alongside my EOS 3 kit and see how it all works out in practice.

I'm starting to think along the lines "well, if I buy an D30, I won't need to buy a 600mm lens, as it will magically transform my 100-400, so I'll actually be SAVING money" this is a very bad sign. The next stage to ruination is when I start trying to explain this logic to my wife!

Cheers

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
Granite
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:19 pm

Hi Colin

The D30 purchase for me was a LOT of money.

But once I started using it, I feel like I got it for free and haven't thought about the money....until I posted this  Sad

I would like one of the Sigma lenses that Paul D and Andrew H have. A bit expensive since I just paid out for the D30 but I have managed to sell the Sony S70 at a good price. Might keep the money back for the lens.

Go on Colin, be a little devil and get a D30......but don't tell the wife Big grin

Regards

Gary Watt
Aberdeen, Scotland
 
Glenn
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:42 pm

Hey Colin,  Wink/being sarcastic Do I detect a Convert  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I never thought I'd see the day

Glenn
 
hkg_clk
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:49 pm

Wow, I didn't realise digital was that good, even though I am a digital photographer myself.

So it seems that the 5 million or more pixels we are seeing in newer cameras is really pretty useless for most people.
See my homepage for a comprehensive guide to spotting and photography at HKG
 
ckw
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:57 pm

Well, I'm coming round ... I've never been AGAINST digital, I've just believed film was currently better. I think in THEORY it still is ... but "in the field" can never achieve theoretical possibilities anyway, and what I'm seeing, and what I'm reading, is pretty convincing.

What I've yet to do is produce a digital print taken by me and produced on my equipment. And there is the small matter of finding the dosh, which might take a little time!

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
yka
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:03 pm

So what? Most sane people dont spend a few grand on a digital SLR just to take airplane pictures. Obviously something that costs 8x times that of a regualr SLR is gonna produce better pics and I do not see the point in comparing digital vs. film. I think it would be more fair to compare a $300 digital cam against a film SLR of the same price.
 
Sukhoi
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:19 pm

Most sane people dont spend a few grand on a digital SLR just to take airplane pictures.

Yesterday i was a whiner now im insane!  Wink/being sarcastic

What a week Big grin

Cheers

Paul
 
EGGD
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:19 pm

hhmmmm, nice review.

YKA:

Canon EOS 1V 35mm SLR Body Only

$1,345.00

-----

Canon EOS D30 Digital Camera (I)

$1,599.00.


Not much price difference there. This is at Royalcamera.com btw (i know people who have ordered from here). Taking a camera that cost exactly the same price (lets say the Minolta Dimage 7, at most shops), would be like comparing an average SLR with a top range point & shoot, there is absolutly no point because they are essentially different.

I'd have to say, that at a lower level digital is still bringing out the results in terms of quality, but their sadly lacking with using 'electronic viewfinders' and having a lag between pressing the shutter release and taking the shot. This annoys me alot, but i have got used to it, sorta.

Regards

Dan
 
LGW
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:24 pm

Dan, I have the same sorta viewfinder on my 2100, argh! sometimes I could just smash that camera! But you do get used to it. So, uploaded any shots here yet dan? happy with ya '90?

LGW
 
EGGD
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:37 pm

Well, as far as i'm concerned the LCD is alot better, so i just use that. Although most of the time i just guess where i am pointing it, boy does it get annoying! I have uploaded some which are in the que (damn not HQ! Big grin), which EGBB says will get accepted although i am not holding my breath  Acting devilish

Regards

Dan
 
yka
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:40 pm

I bet I could take a 30 year $200 old Nikon body(in good mechanical shape), put the same lens on it that Ckw had on the 1V and produce identical results with Provia 100F. Note I said "regular" SLR not something top of the line with a totaly unecassary 1/8000 shutter speed and other useless features. It dosn't matter what camera body you have but what lens is attached to it. So compared to a regular camera body the D30 is still several times more expensive.

Besides, the closest any digital user is gonna get to actualy handling some of his work is by printing the digital shots with a printer. Prints are bound to be lost or destroyed and data earased leaving the once gloating D30 user with magled and faded prints too look at in his old age.
 
EGGD
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:42 pm

Yes but comparing your 30yr old $200 Nikon Body to an expensive new digital camera wouldn't be fare despite the results  Big grin
 
yka
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:47 pm

Your obviously missing the point, perhaps if you were a couple years older you would understand what im trying to say.
 
EGGD
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:50 pm

I totally understand what you are saying (btw. you've just proved about all that age thing...), i just think you are jealous!
 
ckw
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 10:56 pm

YKA - firstly I don't have a 1V, nor did I personally claim digital was better than film, or for that matter say anything about the validity of comparing the two - I simply found an interetsing review and thought it might give some food for thought.

Having said that, did you read the review? Because the essence of it was to compare like with like in so far as was possible and compare the results. The review is interesting in that it puts up a a cogent arguement against the widely held view (myself included) that film is inherently better than digital.

No. not everyone wants to spend the bucks necessary to make what to many is a very small improvement in quality. But it is apparently possible that by going the high end digital route I can produce a better end product. I would be "insane" to dismiss this out of hand - whether or not I'm insane if I buy one is between me and my bank manager!

There are many other issues to take into account as well which may or may not be relevant on an individual basis, but here we're talking about the actual quality possible from film and digital.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
Granite
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:17 pm

Hi all

Colin, if you want to mail me privately with your home address, I can post a couple of my Singapore shots to you, printed on the HP720C, on Kodak paper.

No problems if you don't want to pass on your address.

Let me know.

regards

Gary Watt
Aberdeen, Scotland
 
yka
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:20 pm

Obviously the side by side pics clearly label the D30 as a hands down winner, there isin't really any need to read the entire article or debate whether or not the D30 is better for digital picture files.

However, my point is that comparing the D30 to 35mm SLR which has all the features needed for avaiation photography(where all SLR's under $300 will have them) is like comparing a $1500 lens against a $350 one. Comparing the 1V against the D30 was a clever move to put two roughly equaly priced cameras to the test and make the test appear fair but in reality, dare I say it again, a $200 body fitted with the same lens would have produced same results as the 1V on the subjects pictured yeilding the the price of the 1V irrelavent.

Therefore your entire effort which went into creating that webpage which in itself is very nice and conducting the tests(I appreciate the effort) yielded results which should be dismissed as invalid.

A more accurate test would involve testing a $300 digital camera against a film SLR body(however much it might be) with a comprable lens on the same subjects.
 
EGGD
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:27 pm

FYI Colin did not compile the test..

I think, that if you really want to compare a $300 SLR with a $300 Digital camera, go ahead, i really do not see much point. In this case i think you should compare a $300 digital camera with a $300 point & shoot camera, because they are essentially the same. Both have lenses built in, both are mostly automatic (no choice over shutter speed, aperture, exposure etc) and both are aimed at the same market.

This test is alot more realistic than your proposed one, which is almost biased so there is no possible way in which the digital can win.

Regards

Dan
 
yka
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:35 pm

Sorry for asuming those was Colins tests, I did not read the title properly as I haven't slept for at lest 16 hours.
 
Granite
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YKA

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:46 pm

Hi

Might be a good idea if you go get some sleep now and look at the thread once you have been refreshed and understand what we are all saying Big grin

Regards

Gary Watt
Aberdeen, Scotland


 
yka
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Fri Dec 07, 2001 11:47 pm

Going back to EGGD's last post...

That is why it is impossible to fairly compare a 35mm SLR against a Digital one because for this type of work the digital camera will anhailate the 35mm SLR everytime. This is what my problem is with the entire debate over which one is better when everyone already knows the Digital SLR is.

It's like you suggested, comparing a $300 digital point and shoot against an entry level SLR body with a good lens(es).

The D30 offers results that film simply cannot rival in the digital format. For hardcopy, perhaps film still takes the crown, but for internet use there is no question.
 
ckw
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sat Dec 08, 2001 2:36 am

YKA - that's exactly why you have to READ the article, while the screen demo is self evident, the article goes on to discuss how the D30 compares in the realm of hardcopy and this is where it gets interesting. The object of using a 1v was to allow the SAME lens to be used for the tests obviating any effects the glass might have on the comparison. In fact any EOS body could have been used. And I only wish I was in a position to be able to write such an article!

Cheers.

Colin


Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
da Fwog
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sat Dec 08, 2001 8:13 am

If you want to compare digital with conventional and argue about prices, I suggest you put the D30 up against something like the EOS 300, which has similar build and specifications, or maybe against the EOS 33 (which has slightly more advanced features - apart from the fact it still uses film!)

I found this article very interesting, but I have seen a similar argument before. In fact, I attended a day out sponsored by Canon and hosted by Amateur Photographer in the UK, and the AP technical editor made a big point of saying how much better digital was at recording shadow detail, because of a much wider dynamic range compared to film. Resolution isn't everything, unless you want to get really big reproductions of your pictures. I personally think the biggest sticking point re: digital is still price - I simply won't believe anyone who buys a D30/S1/D1x/1D and doesn't admit they had to grit their teeth or wince as they signed the credit card slip...
 
ckw
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sat Dec 08, 2001 9:24 am

You got it right there Chris - one D30, with a much lower spec as a camera, costs more than both my EOS 3s put together! This is the only factor holding me back at the moment - very hard to justify (apart from the "instead of a longer lens" arguement I'm cultivating).

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
KingWide
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sat Dec 08, 2001 9:41 am

I used the instead of a longer lens argument. Simple choice, 500 F4 @ £6000 or D30 and the 300 F4 I already have and £4000 to spend on sweets....

J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
Staffan
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sat Dec 08, 2001 10:11 am

If you go with the 'sweets' option, don't forget to brush your teeth!  Laugh out loud
 
andyhunt
Crew
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sat Dec 08, 2001 11:39 pm

Chris,

I gritted my teeth and winced at the same time when I signed the credit card slip!

Andrew
Full frame always beats post processing
 
da Fwog
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 5:25 am

RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sun Dec 09, 2001 4:58 am

I was most disappointed when I met Kingwide today and he didn't have pockets bulging with sweets!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sun Dec 09, 2001 5:10 am

Was he on your stamping ground or were you on his?
 
EGGD
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sun Dec 09, 2001 6:00 am

From the uploads i see you were on his Big grin
 
ckw
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sun Dec 09, 2001 9:03 am

Went down to my camera shop today, and the b***ard owner offered to LOAN, not hire, me a D30 for a long weekend whenever I want. I'm sunk. Ever feel like a fish on the line??

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
da Fwog
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sun Dec 09, 2001 5:01 pm

 Smile

But boy, that's a tasty worm, Colin!

Try it! You might hate it!  Smile
 
Glenn
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 8:33 pm

RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Sun Dec 09, 2001 6:18 pm

Hey Colin, the same thing happened to me when I went to inquire about the Camera. They made the offer to loan, when I went to take up the offer, they had an excuse and a half then decided that they didn't loan it anymore. Power of the Buyer, I went to his competitor across the road and brought it  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Glenn
 
Skymonster
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Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Mon Dec 10, 2001 3:39 am

Went down to my camera shop today, and the b***ard owner offered to LOAN, not hire, me a D30 for a long weekend whenever I want. I'm sunk. Ever feel like a fish on the line??

Colin,

I spent four hours today at LHR shooting away in glorious sunshine... Now I have to wait at least two weeks for the K64 to be processed, probably more given the Christmas mail. I know how you feel about staring that hook in the face!  Big grin

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
KingWide
Posts: 698
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Mon Dec 10, 2001 4:07 am

I learnt something yesterday: Don't shoot with Sheldon! He's nicked all my shots!

I figured that being the 'senior man' he might give the 'young whippersnapper' a chance but no! There was me laid up in bed with the flu on Saturday night and he was racing to get the uploads in.

Some people... Big grin


J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
da Fwog
Posts: 845
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Mon Dec 10, 2001 5:22 am

J, I simply can't believe that you can't improve on some of the "queue" shots I took down by 09R, especially when you took about 2-3 times as many pics as me on your "borrowed" microdrive.

Anyway, as far as giving "young whippsersnappers" a chance, when they are capable of doing this sort of thing when left to their own devices, then I don't think they need any assistance from ME:


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Jason Taperell



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Jason Taperell



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Jason Taperell



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Jason Taperell



Anyway, J, don't stir up trouble, or I'll show everyone that pic I took of you leaning over the top of the fence!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Mon Dec 10, 2001 5:54 am

What is it with this Jason chap? Does he ONLY do pics with the sun on the wrong side of what???  Big grin Big grin

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Mon Dec 10, 2001 6:00 am

Ooops... I meant "or what" at the end... And I was only joking Jason!!!  Big grin

ANdy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
da Fwog
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Mon Dec 10, 2001 7:21 am

Yes he does. But doesn't he do it WELL!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Mon Dec 10, 2001 9:40 am

Jeez, can't WAIT to get out to LHR to try out this stuff!!!

Only problem is... don't have my extender yet (£70 from Canon) so its only going to be full frame  Sad.

Regards

Dan
 
Sukhoi
Posts: 1561
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RE: Film Vs Digital Again

Mon Dec 10, 2001 5:21 pm

Andy,

Where were you yesterday? I was down by the threshold to 09L. Great lighting for some fine pictures Big grin

Cheers

Paul

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