Dazed767
Topic Author
Posts: 4967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 7:33 am

I KNEW something didn't add up when I saw this photo.

Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Axel Pipgras



Dawned on me that I saw it on this post a week or so ago....

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/683449/

And that the photo was taken from airbuses website!

http://www.airbus.com/img/magazine/media/hr_a3184.jpg

Nail him to the wall!

Best Regards,
Justin
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3686
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 7:44 am

Good eye Justin!  Big thumbs up

This kind of B.S. really pisses me off! Pissed  Pissed

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Cathay111
Posts: 517
Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 8:21 am

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 7:55 am

I like his name!!!!

Feel like changing mine to Wheel Seedtree or Differential Wheatfield

Axel Pipgras! Love it!
 
Dazed767
Topic Author
Posts: 4967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 8:30 am

Yeah, that name was another hint....haha.

~Muffler Crabgrass
 
sunilgupta
Posts: 766
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2000 12:15 pm

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 8:40 am

Is it possible he took the picture *for* Airbus? Or Airbus liked it and used it? After all it's not a stellar shot (no offense meant)… I mean if it were an official Airbus shot I’d expect it to be a little better (sorry Axel… if that’s you real name!)

Sunil

 
Alaskaairlines
Posts: 2326
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 12:28 pm

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 8:54 am

Can't believe somebody would do that,

Cathay those are some weird looking aircraft. Were did you dig up those pictures?

-Dmitry
 
Dazed767
Topic Author
Posts: 4967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

Suntil

Sat Dec 29, 2001 9:05 am

That crossed my mind, but I don't think the chances of the actual photographer posting it on here are very high. Now that I have said that, it is probably him, and I'll be flamed for weeks because of this post....  Big thumbs up
 
thomasphoto60
Posts: 3686
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 1:04 pm

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 9:28 am

Area '69' huh???? Well, I've been there quite a few times and it is one of my personal favourites! Laugh out loud  Big thumbs up

Nice ones Craig...LOL!!


Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Guest

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 9:41 am

It looks like a genuine upload to me by Axel....

Looking at the Airbus.com website, it does state in the conditions that when you submit a shot to the website:
Photos become the property of Airbus.

Interesting.... Has the photographer declined ownership once it has been accepted by Airbus.com?
(Check the small print on the airbus.com website about submitting shots to their site)
The a.net example was added on 28th of December.

Legal eagles: What is the position on copyright here?
Anyone?

Cheers

Gerry/EDI
 
Dazed767
Topic Author
Posts: 4967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 9:55 am

I think he just copied and pasted it from airbus.com. It seems to me that he is really young, his spelling mistakes are bad....'famiely' and 'behinde', unless that's the German spelling of it....  Smile
 
luftaom
Posts: 525
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 4:29 pm

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 3:38 pm

The german for family is die Familie and behind is hinter - so it isnt the german spelling!
 
da Fwog
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 5:25 am

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 4:36 pm

Just because his English is poor, doesn't necessarily mean it's not his photo...
 
Dash8King
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 4:49 pm

Yeah I also noticed that pic as I saw it on a discussion in General Aviation. I just thought that maybe Airliners.net made a mistake and double posted it or something.
 
carmy
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 12:00 am

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 5:03 pm

I don't know about American law, but I do know a fair bit about Singaporean copyright law, which is based entirely on British and Canadian copyright laws. S.30(2) states that the author or creator of a Literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work is the owner of the copyright, unless the work has been comissioned, s.30(5), it's an employee's work, s.30(6) or it's the work of a journalist employee. s.30(4)

In this case, there're two possibilities, first of all is that Airbus had commisioned Axel to take the picture for use on their website. If that's the case, copyright of the picture will belong to Airbus as spelled out by s.30(5) of the Act. However, the copyright will not belong to Airbus anymore if Airbus had not used the picture as had been agreed to in the contract. For example if the photographer and Airbus had agreed to use the photo in a magazine, Airbus cannot use it on their website. If Airbus does, the copyright ownership reverts back to the photographer.

The second possibility is that Axel had indeed taken the photo and Airbus had used it and posted it on their website. In this situation, NORMALLY, Axel will remain the copyright ownership of the photograph, since Airbus had not comissioned him to take the picture.

However, since EDlpic said that the Airbus website makes all photos posted on their website Airbus's property, Axel will lose ownership of that copyright. It is a leagally binding contract, and would be quite difficult to get out of it.

I hoped that cleared things up a bit. So it really depends on Axel now to see what he has to say.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 5:54 pm

Under Dutch law, any work made while under employ falls to the employer no matter how it is used.
German law and Dutch law are closely related on many points.

So IF this kid worked for Airbus, the photo would not belong to him. The only place it could realistically have been taken is a place only employees have access to so he cannot realistically claim he came back in his spare time and took the shot from outside the office.
He would have used company facilities (parking, ramp) and equipment (camera, lens) to make it, which would mean the shot falls to the company anyway.
I wish I were flying
 
Guest

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 6:34 pm

Noted last two comments, Thanks:

Airbus may or may not have comissioned him to take the picture, but state that any submitted to them become property of airbus. Therefore, can a photograpaher submit suqsequently to airliners.net under his own name?
I don't think so.

Also, if an existing a.net photo is purchased or offered to airbus or anyone else, then the aquiring party becomes the owner. Can airbus.com or any other similar company/person request the photo to be deleted from airliners.net since ownership has changed?

I can't remember exactly to quote a specific example at this time, but wasn't there a photo noted from within the a.net database that was deleted (I don't know who requested the deletion, it just disappeared) after it was published in a UK aviation magazine (ie: sold)

Haven't companies/individuals who have aquired the copyright by purchase or contracual agreement got the right to request deletion due to change of ownership?
I think they do have that right.

Although, I presume it's for the aquiring party to search and pursue, not for the seller to relinquish.

I am bearing in mind that copyright appears to have national varyations of interpretatiion, this is an international situation (WWW).

Just some thoughts, since I'm not sure myself now...
Any 'regulars' here who sell consistently care to comment too.

Cheers

Gerry/EDI
 
fuairliner
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:23 pm

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 7:00 pm

Hi everybody,

this photo was taken in front of the paintshop at XFW. Nobody has got access to that area unless he works for Airbus Industrie.
To me it seems to be exact the same picture like on the Airbus website. Airbus always takes pictures of new aircraft/new airlines when they emerge from the paintshop, so if he really works for Airbus and has legally taken this picture, why doesn't he upload pics of every interesting aircraft?
He only uploads the one that is published on Airbus official website.

This guy is very suspicious to me!


Kind regards,

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy FUAirliner
Frank Unterspann
Frank Unterspann - Hamburg, Germany
 
da Fwog
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 5:25 am

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 7:10 pm

Regarding the sale of photos, it depends on whether the photographer sells the COPYRIGHT to the photo, or merely a licence to use the photo. The latter is usually the norm, but if the copyright is sold or transferred to someone else, it is up to that person/entity to decide how the photo may then be used. So if Airbus own the copyight to the photo in question (which we don't know), whether it was originally taken for them or sold/transferred to them at a later time, that photo could not normally be published elsewhere, even by the photographer himself, without the agreement of Airbus, and certainly not under any circumstances with a strapline asserting the photographer's copyright.

Bear in mind that the appearance of this photo on the Airbus website does not necessarily mean that the copyright is owned by Airbus, regardless of any terms and conditions the company may apply to images SUBMITTED to its site. Unless you know the mechanics of who took the photo, under what conditions, and how it came to be published on the Airbus site (for example, if it was submitted by the photographer, or if he was approached by Airbus), you cannot make any statement regarding the ownership of the picture.
 
Guest

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 9:35 pm

The same Axel Pipgras has a posting on this webpage - any German speakers out there care to translate for us?

http://www.diplomarbeiten-online.com/links_pages/Ingenieur/Sonstiges/

berechnung der Druckverteilung innerhalb und außerhalb eines Triebwerkseinlaufs
Name: Axel Pipgras
Uni/FH: fh
Abgabedatum: tt/mm/jjjj
Beschreibung: Es soll mit Hilfe des Programms PanAir, das von der Nasa entwickelt wurde gezeigt werden, ob eine Druckverteilungsrechnung an der Kontur eines Einlaufdiffusors eines Strahltriebwerks mit diesem Programm zu vernünftigen Ergebnissen kommt.
(Added: 24-Oct-2001 Hits: 0)
 
carmy
Posts: 590
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2001 12:00 am

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 10:27 pm

Important point that Da_Fwog brought up. Was the copyright sold to Airbus, or did he just give a licence to use the picture. That's a question.

Airbus may or may not have comissioned him to take the picture, but state that any submitted to them become property of airbus. Therefore, can a photograpaher submit suqsequently to airliners.net under his own name?
I don't think so.


That's correct. If the copyright is owned by Airbus, he cannot post the picture on a.net and claim it to be his own, even if he had taken the photo.

Also, if an existing a.net photo is purchased or offered to airbus or anyone else, then the aquiring party becomes the owner. Can airbus.com or any other similar company/person request the photo to be deleted from airliners.net since ownership has changed?

That's not so correct. The acquiring party does not become the owner of copyright in a work. The photographer, unless he is an employee, a journalist employee, or has been comissioned to do the picture, remains the owner of the copyright. That's unless he's sold the copyright or transfered his copyright to the new owner. I think you'll be able to find more on this topic in s.194 of the Copyright Act.
 
AviationIvi
Posts: 760
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2001 2:49 am

Andrew

Sat Dec 29, 2001 11:23 pm

Hi Andrew!

technical stuff about pressure compensation etc.
not pretty important for us.

Regards from snowy FRA,
Ivica
 
fuairliner
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:23 pm

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sat Dec 29, 2001 11:40 pm

Hi everybody,

as the picture in question was taken in front of the paintshop at XFW which is an area only Airbus employees can access, Airbus must have granted permission to him to take this photo.
Additionally, as I previously stated Airbus always takes its own photographs of a new aircraft/new airline before anyone else is able to do so because they need them for their press releases and customers. This job is either done by their own staff photographers or by professionals if their own staff is not available. This picture is definitely shot just after the aircraft has emerged from the paint shop.
I am sure Airbus knows about copyright rules, so we can assume they own the copyright of pictures in their press releases.
To conclude, in my opinion there are four possibilities:
  • Axel Pipgras has taken the picture for Airbus (unlikely considering his job - see further down)
  • Axel Pipgras is an Airbus employee and took the picture beside the official photographer (possible)
  • Axel Pipgras has purchased the copyright from Airbus (very unlikely)
  • Axel Pipgras has used the picture from www.airbus.com


Regarding his postings at
http://www.diplomarbeiten-online.com/links_pages/Ingenieur/Sonstiges/:
It is a summary of his diploma work submitted in October 2001. The topic is "Calculation of the allotment of pressure inside and outside an engine entrance" (I hope I used the right words to make it understandable - very difficult words), so it is related with aviation and he might have somehow access to the Airbus plant at Hamburg-Finkenwerder. He studied at Hamburg.


Kind regards,

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy FUAirliner
Frank Unterspann
Frank Unterspann - Hamburg, Germany
 
Guest

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sun Dec 30, 2001 12:39 am

The full size shot has been deleted from the db.

Hmm..

Gerry/EDI
 
chris28_17
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 4:26 am

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sun Dec 30, 2001 1:23 am

I checked out that guy's post and indeed he seems to know alot about engines, doesnt really sound like a dumb kid to me... the topic he is replying to is something like "calculating the pressure distribution inside and outside of an engine intake" and from his reply he seems to be pretty damn intelligent.

I'm beginning to think we might have judged a little too fast.


CHRIS
 
SJC-Alien
Posts: 870
Joined: Wed Jul 14, 1999 1:15 pm

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sun Dec 30, 2001 1:37 am

....Hmmmm..next time you see something like that, contact the photographer via the airliners.net link and ask the photographer how they managed to get the shot...etc, etc,,,take notes...  Big grin

Since the photo has been removed from the database, I tried to connect via the photographers page and couldn't find any reference to his name,,,unless I missed it...

SJC Alien
 
Guest

RE: This Is NOT His Photo!

Sun Dec 30, 2001 3:23 am

For your information, Axel has contacted us to ask for this photo to be removed from the database, as the copyright does indeed belong to Airbus.

S4

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