704TangoAlpha
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 2:56 pm

I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 3:52 am

...about this picture:


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Mike Mays



Not that it is fake, it is certainly real and definetely an aweseome shot.

However...

I am convinced that this is not the original photographer. My first instinct was, "hey, those dont look like mountains from Alaska" they look ALOT more like colorado, or even california."

Secondly, and most obvious. Mr. Mays states in the comments "FL 330". I.e. "flight level, 33,000 ft." Well he is the photographer, he should know this information, right?

well...

This aircraft is very clearly NOT at FL330. Much closer to around 11 or 12,000 ft. For starters, look at the clouds. Those type of clouds are not that high in the sky and even if they just so happend to be on that particular day, they would have covered ALL of that mountain range in the distance. The only POSSIBLE exception would be if it really was Alaska, and Mt. McKinnley was poking its SNOWCOVERED head through the clouds. I see no snow.

I also wrote Mr. Mays and got no reply, i wasnt suprized.

Okay, so call me a dickhead for bashing this guy but I simply think it is a rip-off from somewhere. Scanned from a magazine or taken from a website, etc...


TA
 
fuairliner
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:23 pm

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 4:47 am

704tangoalpha,

Did I get you right?
You are accusing Mike Mays of uploading photos he has not shot himself to the database just because you think the mountains look more than Californian or Colorado ones and because the quoted flight level might be incorrect?

In my opinion this does not give you the right to accuse him of copyright violation.

BTW, did you look at the Photo ID? This shot was one of the very first ones to be uploaded, so I would not be surprised if you don't get any answer to your e-mail. It may be not valid any more.


Kind regards,

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy FUAirliner
(Frank Unterspann)
Frank Unterspann - Hamburg, Germany
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 4:58 am

I don't know whether it is his photo or not, but that is definetely not the correct information. Surely he would've known what he was doing, what flight, where he was, aircraft registration etc considering it was added not long after it was supposedly taken..
 
fuairliner
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:23 pm

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 5:06 am

Dan,

you're right, but I still don't it is the correct way to accuse the photographer in public just because of some hints.
There are many photos in the database with incorrect information!


Kind regards,

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy FUAirliner
(Frank Unterspann)
Frank Unterspann - Hamburg, Germany
 
704TangoAlpha
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 2:56 pm

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 5:33 am

Did I get you right?
You are accusing Mike Mays of uploading photos he has not shot himself to the database....


Yup.


In my opinion this does not give you the right to accuse him of copyright violation.


Then prove me wrong.

I still don't it is the correct way to accuse the photographer in public

Fair enough, so if i'm wrong I will *publically* apologize to everyone including Mr. May, and YOU can *publically* accuse me of being an idiot.

It has happend before, by the way.

cheers

TA



 
fuairliner
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:23 pm

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 5:43 am

Then proof me wrong.

You have to give evidence that your accuses are correct!


Fair enough, so if i'm wrong I will *publically* apologize to everyone including Mr. May, and YOU can *publically* accuse me of being an idiot.

That's not my job. The correct way to handle this would be sending an e-mail to the photographer (what you did), and then contact the admins.

I'm not trying to proof that you're wrong, I don't like your way you handle this case.


Kind regards,

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy FUAirliner
(Frank Unterspann)
Frank Unterspann - Hamburg, Germany
 
rindt
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 3:08 pm

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 6:16 am

TA,

Your accusation is spot-on as far as I'm concerned... that shot looks like it was taken in the San Bernardino valley, by Ontario (which just so happens to be a large UPS hub!) The chances of those types of clouds forming at such an altitude are also slim to none.

I say "bravo" for bringing it forward... if we don't publicly humiliate the idiots that pull this crap off, how else would we stop them from doing it again?

-Rob

What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
Guest

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 8:58 am

Maybe Mr Anony-mouse 704tangoalpha hasn't realised that what he is doing is wrong. Perhaps he also doesn't know that an a.net photographer pulled all his photographs from this site when claims of their authenticity were questioned.

There have been some obvious 'copies' spotted in the last few months through carelessness by the offender but you are basing your claim not on the aircraft but on your perception of where the photograph was taken.

Post you complaint to the Aministrators to sort out, not here please. Once this sort of ridiculous precedent is started, some ordinary guys who make honest mistakes will get really pissed off.

Gerry
 
nikonF100
Posts: 254
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 3:21 am

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 9:16 am

Um, Gerry, to my knowledge those photos were FAKE. Secondly, he did not pull them, Johan did, because this photographer could not produce substantial evidence as to the authenticty of the shots.

Finally, a copyright violation is a totally different can of worms than fake photos.

As for my opinion on that photo, it's not fake, but I highly doubt that he took it. That's NOT Alaska...It really looks like the LA Hills or the hills outside of San Fran.

 
Guest

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 9:31 am

Posted 12-19-00 21:39

Because of this kind of bashing I have asked Johan to remove all my photographs from airliners.net.
.....his words.

Also, Granite mentioned in that same thread:

If I had my way, it would have taken the decision to delete upon the first mention of 'fake', but Johan had decided to let the thread be, probably in the hope of some civil discussion between fellow photographers, amateur and professional.

But it has turned out to be a continual bashing of his work.

Yes, some very positive comments and some not so good.

I will hold my hand up as I think I did mention somewhere along the line that some of his shots are 'fake'

I have said all along and from the very start that there should be NO criticising of other peoples work on the forum. If a problem does arise, contact one of the administrators to handle and let them decide the outcome.


Although I don't think Gary will come out of hibernation to kill this thread. Please be careful out there or you'll alienate photographers...

Cheers

Gerry/EDI
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 9:46 am

Aaah Frank, you reminded me of the very important point I missed! I think that, unless you have concrete evidence that a photograph is fake, you should not post. Even if it looks to be stolen, or faked, just don't, unless you really have proof.

There was a photo posted in the civil-aviation forum last week, about a photograph of a BWIA 747 leased from Cargolux, and someone accused it of being fake. I mean, the story came out in the end, but why couldn't he have written the topic 'BWIA 747?' or something similar, not accusing the photo is fake, but trying to find out whether it is or not. Instead, he named it 'allright, who did this?' and then accused of being it a straight out fake.

Well...
 
704TangoAlpha
Posts: 55
Joined: Fri Aug 17, 2001 2:56 pm

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 9:52 am

check out this post:

http://airliners.net/discussions/aviation_photography/read.main/35423/4/

I'm wondering why "EDIpic" and "FUAirliner" who were so gung-ho on that post out to "find out the truth" of the mysterious A318 picture. Suddendly, they have turned into beacons of morality and reason on this post, saying "there should be no such arguments!"

Maybe Mr Anony-mouse 704tangoalpha hasn't realised that what he is doing is wrong.

Oh, i suppose you realized this AFTER that last post.

Oh yeah, and "Mr. Anony-mouse" thats pretty clever, did you make that up yourself?

Okay, I didnt mean for this to become a flame war of some sort, It's just that any idiot can tell that "Mike Mays" probably didnt take that picture.

"well maybe he just got the info mixed up" -- IT'S HIS ONLY PICTURE!! how could he mix up the info?

I don't like your way you handle this case.

Fair enough. But I dont like people taking credit for photos that aren't theirs, and I dont think the genuine photogs here do either.


TA
 
Guest

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 9:57 am

Correct: I did read it. Proof was obtained.
The offenders carelessness.

You haven't got any proof for this one except for the possible wrong info offered by the photographer with the picture.
 
chris28_17
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sun Jul 09, 2000 4:26 am

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 10:00 am

Alright. I agree with 704TA. I think it only takes a minute amount of common sense to realize that this is probably not Mike M's picture.

Having said that, if someone posted one of my pictures on here and said "FAKE!!!" or "COPYRIGHT VIOLATION!!" i wouldn't care because I can very easily prove them wrong. It WOULD NOT offend me one bit.

As a contributor to this site i have no qualms about people pointing out potential copyright problems as long as they remain within reason (i.e. having a good argument) which i believe this situation certainly does.

Mike Mays is probably just some kid that was bored one evening and decided to try and upload a picture to see what happens.

And that's my opinion.

CHRIS
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 10:21 am

I have to agree it is possibe that the information is wrong, but the photographer (this is obviously a photo shoot), should know the flight levels, area taken and the aircraft that they are doing it of. I know that for the ones that I fly, I generally know the aircraft and I know the altitudes, formations, and I would hope the area. Most of it is dictated by the man taking the photos.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
nikonF100
Posts: 254
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 3:21 am

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 10:23 am

Gerry,

From Johan's post dated 12-20-00:

"I have made it clear that we do not allow composites on Airliners.net and as I [was] unable to receive adequate information from [him] regarding the status of his photos..."

 
AirNikon
Posts: 172
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 11:31 am

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 10:33 am

Here's another interesting concept to consider. That pic is SO much like a typical promotional photo that DAC used to distribute en masse' years (decades?) ago. However, DAC was already Boeing by 1997, and no longer taking inflight DC-8 pics I suppose. The aspect ratio on this pic is ~1.3, just about the same as an 8.5"X11" print. (HMMMM)

Yes I am aware that an uncropped digital pic is 1.3333...., but a digital pic (even back then) should be sharper than this. Rindt is on the right track by suggesting that it was shot in SoCal, as it sure looks like it to me (but we'll never be sure). It doesn't look like FL330 either, although my Chuck Yeager vision isn't what it used to be.

These are all just suppositions, but my final question is: Why does he have only ONE PIC in the database?

Who knows? I surely dont.

Don't get married, don't have kids, and you will have more money than you know what to do with...
 
Guest

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 10:35 am

Yes, but chronologically, the photo's were requested to be pulled before the webmaster's post. The case was not proven. Lots of opinions, that's all.
 
J.C. Harrist
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 3:08 am

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 1:13 pm

I can't really tell what the flight level is, but as a 22-year long resident of the state, I'd say it very well could have been taken over Alaska.


J.C. Harrist
 
Carlos Borda
Posts: 463
Joined: Tue Dec 05, 2000 1:31 pm

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sat Mar 02, 2002 2:52 pm

Rather interesting thread and photo. In case some of you already didn't know (some of you do), I work for UPS and I've seen this photo around at work up on a wall, calendar or on our Intranet site somewhere in the last 7 years that I've been there, I'm very sure of it....
Did he take the shot or not?? That I don't know and I'm not even sure if I could find out, but one thing I know for sure is that UPS is very very strict about their image/copyright and the way it's used.
I want to make myself very clear here guys.... I'm not saying this guy didn't take the shot, but I'm am saying that UPS probably owns the copyright to it either way if they hired him or a firm to do the air-to-air shoot (which they did). I'm going to try and find some of my old calendars or see if I find that shot up on a wall somewhere in one of our offices.
My hunch is that this is one of our calendar shots.
My $0.2....

~Carlos
 
planeboy
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 2:56 am

Oh Well...

Sat Mar 02, 2002 7:59 pm

"The world may never know" -

But - I think a few inquiring minds know the answer...
 
N509JB
Posts: 486
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 9:20 pm

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sun Mar 03, 2002 4:14 am

You can’t get proof...but you don’t need it. This is clearly not his photo, and I really don’t see an argument here. IF it really is HIS photo, I wouldn’t hire him, cause he don’t know what altitude or location he took the shot, so its a case of either fakery or incompetence.

B
 
gust
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2001 7:44 pm

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Sun Mar 03, 2002 4:57 am

Hi all,

I remember me that clouds and hills like on the picture
look here
http://users.skynet.be/airwim/holly.htm

cheers,
Wim
 
gocaps16
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2000 9:14 am

RE: I Have My Doubts....

Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:22 am

Ok, J.C. You are not 100% correct. You got proof that it's over Alaska just by the mountains? IT could be taken over alaska or it could not. It could be taken over Europe or someplace mountainous and Mr. Mays could written in ANC for the location. But definatly the remark is false information, as well could the date.

good luck gumshoes. Hope you solve this mystery.

Kevin/DCA

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