fuairliner
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:23 pm

The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 5:13 pm

Hi everybody,

once airliners.net has been the #1 database for aviation photography on the web. It grew and grew and more and more photographers did not only used airliners.net to display their pics, but also to meet each other in the forums, to enjoy fantastic pics of others, to read excellent articles ...
If an interesting plane appeared, airliners.net was the first to display it to the public. No other website managed to compete with airliners.net.

But as time went by the problems at airliners.net became bigger and bigger:
Because of high loads the server was down or very slow not only at peak times, the increasing standards made more and more photographers leave airliners.net and the growing screening time made other databases have hot new items much earlier than airliners.net.

As a consequence, other databases were able to reduce the gap to airliners.net:
http://www.planepictures.net/http://www.flugzeugbilder.de for example does already has pics of NEOS Boeing 737-800 and SN Brussels Airlines RJ100 online while airliners.net has them still waiting in the queue (like Staffan's SN Brussels Airlines shot). I recognized more and more airliners.net uploaders who began to upload there, too. Why? Obviously they searched for an alternative to airliners.net because they were sick of the long screening times.
Additionally, I noticed something another important fact today: just look at http://www.flugzeugbilder.de and you'll see what I mean. Now even former members of the airliners.net crew leave!

Previously I couldn't understand people who predicted a negative future for airliners.net, but recent events changed my mind.

Something has to be done quickly or this great site will die quicker than you can act! The new server is a good step, but it is doesn't solve all the problems.

Your thoughts, please!


Kind regards,

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy FUAirliner
(Frank Unterspann)
Frank Unterspann - Hamburg, Germany
 
cfalk
Posts: 10221
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 5:22 pm

I think it's more growing pains than anything else.

Suggestion to Johan: Can you add a counter somewhere that would indicate the number of photos submitted each day? I'm guessing around 500 or so per day.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:00 pm

I thought the cookie enabled frontpage did that for you already Charles?

Anyway, looking at the non-avaition forum, I don't think this site will die, it is as busy as ever. Although I think this site might have to change its name to non-airliners.net
 Wink/being sarcastic  Wink/being sarcastic

Gerry/EDI




....will this thread get deleted?..the other forums are having more fun lately...
 
User avatar
Fly-K
Posts: 2994
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:06 pm

I wouldn't jump to conclusions already, let's wait until the server runs properly and more screeners join the team. Until then, a dual a.net/p.net upload strategy works fine for me.

About the a.net crewmember now at p.net, that was a surprise to me as well, but I don't know if he works for both now.

Konstantin
Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been...
 
jettrader
Posts: 580
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:20 pm


What people do in their own spare time is entirely their business.

I wasn't aware he was contracted exclusively to a.net.

One thing I do dislike here is the increasing number of popup browser windows I get whenever I open an a.net page...without clicking on any banners! I know this site desperately needs additional funding but to my mind this is a very unwelcome means of achieving it. I'd rather pay Johan out of my own pocket to keep this site running than put up with those bloody ads!

Regards,
Dean
Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!
 
cfalk
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 8:55 pm

Hi Gerry,

That counter tells you how many photos were added to the database. I was thinking of submission numbers.

Cheers,

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
Guest

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:02 pm

Doh!
 
Sabena 690
Posts: 6065
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 9:34 pm

@FUAairliner:
Your conclusions are right, but I don't think that a.net will die. But what you say about those pictures (like NEON and SN Brussels Airlines) etc. is completely true.

@Jet Trader:
Yes, those pop-ups are also annoying me, but if I have to chose between no pop-ups and no sponsors for this site, I chose directly for the pop-ups!!

Regards,
Frederic
 
mirage
Posts: 3612
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:08 pm

Speculation, that's all.

Luis
 
Craigy
Posts: 1076
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:48 pm

Perhaps a "breaking news" category in the upload scripts for new airliners rather than just sending Johan an email, as he must get thousands. That should be easy to get priority screening.
Anyone abusing this category would just have the pic immediately rejected, irrespective of the quality.
This would keep a.net reactive for the new planes/airlines.
Craig.
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 10:56 pm

I'm interested in PlanePictures - I like the focused nature of the site. Hit rate is very low compared to A.net, but clearly this could change.

Can anyone say anything about how the site is run/supported - will it too hit a brick wall when it gets up in the 100Ks of pics?

I'm not looking to jump ship just yet ... it's the quiet season for me ... but come the spring, and (hopefully) delivery of my new D60, I know I'm gonna find the current level of A.net service unacceptable, and I don't think I'll want to spend the time uploading to 2 sites.

We get hints of improvements coming for A.net (new server, recruiting screeners etc.) - and its only fair that Johan gets time to address these issues. But as time goes on I feel A.net is sorely testing the loyalty of its contributors.

I think the time is right for a statement by Johan telling us how (or even if) he sees A.net developing over the next 12 months, with some realistic time scales for introducing new screeners, servers, revenue generation
etc.

A lot of people have invested much time and effort into A.net - it is only reasonable that they want to see some return and security on this investment. Otherwise, you can hardly blame them for looking to invest elsewhere.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
Sukhoi
Posts: 1561
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:32 pm

I upload to both sites and dont feel guilty about it at all.

The "other" site the upload service is a lot faster (not as many contributors), image quality standards are lower (more acceptance) and as Colin puts it the site itself is more focused on just images (if thats all you want). Downside is its not as recognised as Airliners and doesnt have as many viewers (if your only motivated by hits then dont apply) but its in its infancy. As to when its as popular as Airliners who can say, but hopefully there be keeping an eye on whats going on over here to avoid the same situations.

Both sites in my opinion can exsist alongside each other. It shouldnt come down to a them and us situation and both sites should help each other to improve, competition is a healthy thing.

Regards

Paul

 
ckw
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Wed Mar 06, 2002 11:49 pm

Paul - I agree with everything you say, but in my case, I absolutely hate the upload process - there's no way I'll do that more than once! Anyone fancy writing a joint A.net/PlanePics upload program  Smile

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
Sukhoi
Posts: 1561
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:14 am

Colin,

The script at the other place seems to be more optimized certainly is quicker uploading the same file.

As you have commented we need to see how Airliners sorts its self out when the server is okay, im sure things will get back to normal once the hardware is reliable and with the additional screeners.

I really dont think Airliners is dead yet, these sorts of threads do the rounds every so often as we all know.

Regards

Paul
 
LGW
Posts: 4281
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 6:07 pm

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:17 am

I really like pp.net The uploads are fast and ingo is sound. The site is JUST photos and yes the hits are low but I dont care about hits and to be honest I cant see a pp.net forum being as active as a.net one.

I see both running well together but there are a whole host of a.net photogs which now upload to pp.net a lot.

Its funnu - b4 I got digital it was always a "big thing" to get acceptance on a.net but now I have 300+ on here i aint to bothered

LGW
 
LGW
Posts: 4281
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:21 am

I see Gary Watt is a 'screener' on pp.net now!

LGW
 
Bogi
Posts: 451
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2001 5:00 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 12:22 am

A few weeks ago i answer to a Question here in the Forum if there is any alternative to a.net and guide the guy to p.net.

Soon after i had answer my Post was delete by Johan becuse of "no advertising"

Now im curiously how long this Topic will survie here.

and pleas dont run all over to p.net let a.net survive the forum here are great


Freundliche Grüße / Best Regards / Atentos saludos / Meilleures salutations

Michael Bogensperger
==================================================
Airliners from Europe and all around the World at
http://www.Airlinerslides.com
 
764ER
Posts: 441
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 4:45 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:05 am

I uploaded a pic to pp.net this morning just to see how fast it would be compared to a.net. When I checked my email an hour later when I got to work, the pic was already accepted (by Gary) and up. I'm sure they don't have the volume of uploads, but maybe they will in the future.

I agree with the others who say once the server here starts to behave, everyone will be a little happier. As a photographer and someone who enjoys the pics, I'd rather deal with server problems for a couple of days than have an older server getting overloaded frequently.

Also, I noticed Gary hasn't posted here in 62 days.  Confused
 
AviationIvi
Posts: 760
Joined: Fri Feb 16, 2001 2:49 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:39 am

Today I uploaded 10 pics to pp.net and before uploading no.6, the first 5 were already accepted by Gary!

Yesterday, I have uploaded the first shot of the SWISS ARJ to pp.net and now I have the "problem" that all my shots would be kicked to the back of the queue if I would upload it to a.net. So maybe we should focus on how to get shots like this into the queue without kicking the "standard" shots to the back??? A special button would be helpful and these pics could come into a 2nd queue...

With the old system I could just upload such a brand new picture, but to be honest, I prefer waiting until I get a confirmation email for my old uploads and then upload again (as it is right now). Ok, then the pic will not be interesting anymore, but still better than the 5000+ pictures that used to wait in the queue and the much longer waiting time we used to have.

So, I hope that we can find a solution for this problem. An additional button on the upload page would be the best from my point of view and we could keep the upload system we have right now until we get more screeners...

By the way:
I like both sites and I will keep on uploading to both.

Regards from FRA
Ivica
 
KingWide
Posts: 698
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 1:43 am

I will be uploading my backlog to pp.net also. Like Colin, I can't see me being bothered to upload them here as well.


J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
administrator
Posts: 2702
Joined: Mon May 17, 1999 5:11 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:14 am

I think competition is a good thing. It can only make us better. Airliners.net has due to it's success, turned into a rather slow machine that's badly in need of more power, both on the human and on the hardware side. I am addressing those issues, a faster server has been installed and about 15 new screeners are being hired as well as 25 new forum moderators and a large number of database standardization editors. You have to understand these things take time though. You would not want me to hire screeners without first selecting them with great care, teach them the admin scripts and then see to that they comply with the standards we've set up. It's a lot of work and takes a lot of time. The last two weeks I've spent 100% of my time trying to solve the hardware problems we've had with the new server so everything has been postponed two weeks. I am sorry to say that the problems have not been solved yet but I hope (and belive) we are much closer to a solution.

If you feel like uploading your photos to other websites, please do, I do not want to stop you. Trust me when I say that other sites, if they ever reach our size, will go through the same growth related problems as we have. I do however want to keep Airliners.net as number one and belive that we will stay numero uno in the future as well considering the changes and new additions to the photo database that we are planning. Let me again point out though that these things take time but that we're working very hard to realize them.

Thanks,
Johan
Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 2:47 am

Johan - thanks for taking the time to reply, can I ask you to go one small step further and provide use with some time scales? I understand (only too well!) that server problems are largely beyond your control, however, on the matter of the screeners, I sure it would be much appreciated if you could indicate when you expect these folk to be fully operational. By end of ...?

A positive and realistic statement would certainly go some way to easing the current disquiet.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
ake0404ar
Posts: 2379
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 10:55 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:02 am

After a downturn, if I can say that way, there will be an up turn again, sooner or later the website will be as popular as before maybe even more. With the additional help being recruited right now and new servers being installed I am sure a.net will easily compete with other websites out there!

It is really unfortunate that the picture processing does take that long right now, I gladly remember those days where pictures had a turn around time of less than 24 hours.

Even that I am sure will be solved soon!

Johan keep up the great work, airliners.net came a long way since I first have visited the site!

btw...competition never hurts

Vasco Garcia
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:18 am

I upload to Airpics and I get my stuff uploaded in a manner of hours somedays. When people want to see what I have taken, I send them there. A.net has a ton of pictures but plane and simple, I would rather upload 5 photos to the other site and get it accepted than submit one here and wait to find out.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
da Fwog
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 5:25 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 3:47 am

I understand entirely the frustration of uploading pics here, and I feel it too. But we are comparing apples with oranges. Looking at PP.net, it has had 1500 visitors today - compared to about 100,000 for A.N. Hardly surprising that it runs faster, uploads get processed more quickly, etc. I would love to see a situation where we could all get our photos processed inside a day or 2 as a matter of course, but with so many visitors, and so many photos being added all the time, it's just not going to happen without both serious hardware and serious manpower being applied to the problem.

Like many things, A.N. is a victim of its own success. Everyone wants to visit and upload their photos here, so there's congestion. We just gotta get on with it, and do whatever we can to help the situation.

Incidentally, I've also uploaded a couple of pics to PP, just to see what sort of response I get. However, no question about it, Airliners.net remains my spiritual home!  Smile
 
Staffan
Posts: 3879
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:04 am

What about if the current screeners were used to train the new ones, that would at least get that load off Johan?

 
Cliffie
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2000 4:59 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:14 am

I also believe that competition is a wholesomely thing and the subject is quite overstated. Of course it's not the end of A.net when another site comes up which sole intention is giving a chance to those having hard times in getting pics accepted at their 'home base' due to a constantly increasing acceptance level or nasty server hiccups.

A.net is also still my homebase and defines endorable standards in fine aviation photography. Here PP kicks in. Not everybody is perfect, some limited by $$ but deliver work pleasing to the eye or up to date.

I think both sites can perfectly harmonate with each other and A.net will always be the one to look up first.

Best regards,
Ingo Richardt
Admin@planepictures.net
 
Sukhoi
Posts: 1561
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:03 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:47 am

Johan and Ingo,

Nice to see constructive responses from you both, good to know that its friendly competition.

Regards

Paul
 
fallingeese
Posts: 2031
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:59 am

I'm upload to both sites. I have photographs on both sites at about a 1:5 ratio. For every 1 on Airliners.net I get 5 at planepictures. What gets me though is that some shots I had waiting in queue for a month only to be rejected. The "other" site within an hour I had the same shot uploaded and a comment by a screener saying that it was a great shot and should submit it to A.net....go figure.
Mark McWhirter...Contrails Photography
 
Cliffie
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2000 4:59 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 5:04 am

Thanks Paul but I don't understand my post. What means "endorable"? Don't drink and type.. ADORABLE !

And yes, I see it as friendly competition.

Ingo
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 5:23 am

This is funny you should bring this up. I think that both sites are excellent. Airliners.net is no.1 I feel, Planepictures.net is not as developed, but is still a great site. I can experiment and then upload to PP.net and see how everyone takes them, or simply just upload my photos that I like, or I know won't get onto A.net, but i'd still like people to see.

When I get on the computer, I check my email, then I open PP.net in one window, and A.net in the other.

Keep up the good work, Ingo and Johan!
 
User avatar
apuneger
Posts: 2964
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RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 7:15 am

Well, I've given up the fact of trying to upload pictures at Airliners.Net, but then I've realized that almost every picture I tried to upload is already somewhere in the database (I mean different pictures, but showing the same aircraft in a likewise angle, airport etc...).

Maybe one of the problems is the fact that too many photographers are trying to upload pictures of which there are already 30+ lookalike pictures in the database. I'm not saying that you should stop to upload them, but at least think about it. Try to look at it from the visitor's viewpoint: do you really need 1500 pictures of the same aircraft? I would say, the more the merrier, but it seems like this isn't working out.

Also, if you took 5 pictures in a couple of seconds of the same aircrraft, is it really necessary to upload every single picture?

So, as a conclusion, maybe every photographer should try to make some sort of (more rigourous) pre-selection, and only try to upload the unique pictures or so...Many great pictures don't get in the database because other photogrpahers are uploading their 'standard' shots.

But hey, that's doens't mean that you're not allowed to take pictures of course. I just put them on my own website. And concerning the pop-up thing, try a pop-up killer...it works you know  Laugh out loud

Ivan
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
fuairliner
Posts: 530
Joined: Mon Jul 16, 2001 7:23 pm

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 4:00 pm

... about 15 new screeners are being hired as well as 25 new forum moderators and a large number of database standardization editors

That's great news, Johan!
After the new screeners have got used to their job, the processing time will go down dramatically. If a week or even less is reached, most of the uploaders who currently pause because of the long waiting times will begin to upload again.
Just curious, why do you need so many forum moderators?

In order to shorten the screening times for rare and hot new photos: What about setting up either a seperate e-mai address (rare@airliners.net) or creating a button on the upload page? Both methods would prevent those shots from sitting in the queue forever as it happened in Staffan's case (SN Brussels Airlines).

Regarding hits: I also upload to planepictures.net and one photo has 619 hits at airliners.net while the same pic has more than 1900 hits at planepictures.net.  Confused

@Bogi:
Look at the bottom of your post! You're advertising again! Big grin


Kind regards,

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy FUAirliner
(Frank Unterspann)
Frank Unterspann - Hamburg, Germany
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 6:23 pm

Airliners.net has given a lot back to the photographers who have contributed to the site over the years, myself included. Without it, I doubt very much whether my pictures would have appeared in some of the places they have, I wouldn't have made the contacts that I have, and most of all I doubt whether I'd be looking at airliner photography in quite the same way I now do. I suspect that there are many others who can say the same.

I think its a shame that, as airliners.net goes through what we all hope is a tough spot, some who've got so much out of airliners.net in the past talk about disertion, or switch allegiance to another site.

Whilst I acknowledge that things will need to improve, go back to how they were before maybe, I think those of us who've been here some time need to give Johan a little time, and leeway, to get things sorted out before moaning or criticing so readily. And on a slightly different subject - sure, airliners.net has high standards and uploads can take a while. So what? I'm quite happy to take the odd hit, but be associated with high standards in return.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
gerardo
Posts: 3372
Joined: Sun May 21, 2000 6:22 pm

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Thu Mar 07, 2002 8:09 pm

I second Andy's opinion. Without Airliners.net I probably wouln't have improved my fotographing skills, and my interest in fotography would not be the same.

Problems or not, I still support this wonderful site, with the numero uno aviation fotography forum,and I also support www.planepictures.net. I am very happy to have both alternatives and I'm sure, that we will see both sites also in the next few years, am I right, Johan and Ingo?

BTW, I also have some pics waiting in the queue. So what? Life still goes on  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Saludos
Gerardo

dominguez(dash)online(dot)ch ... Pushing the limits of my equipment
 
Alaskaairlines
Posts: 2326
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 12:28 pm

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Fri Mar 08, 2002 3:21 am

I don't think a.net will die. They are just struggling with a few problems. p.net has not yet gotten that big. Just give it a little time.

-Dmitry
 
Guest

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Fri Mar 08, 2002 3:08 pm

Being a primarily non-av poster I have seen several threads like this recently. My thoughts are, I hope none of the forums disappear. I regularly check out the aviation forum and sometimes post, I have posted in the tech/ops forum, and I am really beginning to enjoy the av photography forum. I am interested in becoming a spotter and eventually being able to share my own distinct photos with everyone here. So I hope that the bugs will be worked out (both server and user).

Peace to a.net
 
ExitRow
Posts: 1630
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:13 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Fri Mar 08, 2002 3:29 pm

Airliners.net is a wonderful website. Anyone who has ever been on the backend of a database-driven website will know how buggy and difficult they are to create and maintain. Airliners.net does all that, while looking *really* good all the while. These websites aren't cheap either. Knowing that, I tolerate all the pop-up ads. There have been a lot of great (non-aviation) websites in the past that eventually resort to "premium services." The fact that A.net is still free is great. (Fingers crossed.  Big grin)

I can also say that Airliners.net has single-handedly re-infected me with planespotting fever. I've been watching airliners land since I was about five years old (now over 25 years ago!) I used to get lunch with my brother, park by the blast fence in San Diego and waste a whole day waving at Captains. He and I live in different cities now, but we e-mail each other no less than 5 times a day to share photos on A.net. He and I have both upgraded our camera gear and are just dying to waste money taking pictures. All because of A.net!

And then there's these forums. A place for other "weirdos" like me to get together to debate, bitch, laugh and share ideas and images. I didn't type this much in college!

Keep up the incredible work guys. I'm not going anywhere.

ER
 
ExitRow
Posts: 1630
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:13 am

RE: The End Of Airliners.net?

Fri Mar 08, 2002 3:36 pm

Actually, I DO hate the carnival monkey "hit the ducks" banner. But only because it stalls the image loading!

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Granite
Posts: 5026
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:55 pm

I Have Not Jumped Ship

Fri Mar 08, 2002 6:46 pm

Hi all

Just a quick note to say that I have not jumped ship over to PP.net

Ingo has asked for my help on adding pictures as he is soon away on holiday. I was more than willing to help and thank him for asking me. I do have a good eye for pictures  Smile

I have respect for both Johan and Ingo for their websites.

Both websites can live in perfect harmony and hopefully live a long and happy life.

If it was not for Airliners.net I would not have been able to sell 300.00GBP worth of pictures this year so far  Smile

Regards

Gary Watt
Aberdeen, Scotland



 
Sukhoi
Posts: 1561
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:03 am

RE: I Have Not Jumped Ship

Fri Mar 08, 2002 6:52 pm

If it was not for Airliners.net I would not have been able to sell 300.00GBP worth of pictures this year so far


You told me you gave them away for free Big grin

Cheers

Paul Big grin Mr Smiley  Wink/being sarcastic
 
jettrader
Posts: 580
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: I Have Not Jumped Ship

Fri Mar 08, 2002 7:01 pm


Careful Gary...apparently the Inland Revenue are regular readers of this forum!  Wink/being sarcastic

Good to see 'Granite' back in the 'Posted by:' column again. So how was your winter hibernation...?

Cheers,
Dean


Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!

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