tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 11:54 am

Screeners want low grain, high sharpness and will kill everything else if those 2 criteria are not filled.....That means....
#1. If you have a cool and unique (very long lens photo) it will probably be rejected or given to Johan as a border line case...
#2 That a.net will become a low grain, very focused boring photo site of "side on" airplane photos with an occassional contrail photo or nice color, low grain photo getting thru....
Mark Garfinkel
 
xenon
Posts: 484
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 5:12 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 1:17 pm

Mark,

Can it be that one of you're photo's was rejected for "badscan"?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Daniel
AirTeamImages -ATI-
 
photopilot
Posts: 3061
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 1:27 pm

Let's see.....

Low grain.........yes
very focused.....yes
side on photo.....yes
nice color..........yes
contrail.............no, darn.... no engine Big grin

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephen Liard


Oh heck.... must be a boring side-on photo  Nuts  Confused  Insane

Sorry Mark but in my own sarcastic way I'm saying I don't agree with your post. You have some great stuff on A.net and I personally am in awe of your moon shots. You obviously show that you can indeed get unique long lens photos accepted which means that I fail to understand the point of your post. Your acceptances directly refute what you post says.

Explain please.....

Steve
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 2:14 pm

A the big contributors are getting pissed with the amount of rejections (big as in a ton of submitions and number of popular photos). I do agree for some part the rules are a little anal, and for the most part all you see is the boring stuff. But some artistic stuff gets though, heck my Super Blanik photo made it (though after being appealed to Johan).
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 2:16 pm

Steve, every time I see that shot my jaw drops.......!

In response to Mark's post,... I sure hope not (side shot site). I enjoy the variety and creativity the photographers have shown us here. While I can understand the bar being raised from time to time, I don't think it has got out of hand. I know I have had my share of rejections, and i'm sure I have many waiting for me down the road, they just make me take a harder look at my submissions. In the long run I feel I benefit from them.

I think the long lens, and the people behind them is what made this site what it is.

v/r
Jeff
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 2:50 pm

I got a pic rejected that said it as blurry. the only blur on the picture was the visual distortion form the JET BLAST! lol
Phil Derner Jr.
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 2:55 pm

Phil same here:

These two the screeners said were blurry, the only blur is the jet blast and rotor wash, and its only in the background, the aircraft is sharp.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Shawn Clark
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Shawn Clark



Oh well not a big deal for me.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 4:18 pm

I thoguhtt he good part of my picture WAS the dan jet blast! lol
Phil Derner Jr.
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 10:04 pm

PPGMD said: "Ah the big contributors are getting pissed with the amount of rejections (big as in a ton of submitions and number of popular photos)".
I only have 170 photos....
I kind of took a year off until about 2 months ago. Since then 90% of my photos have either been rejected or been deemed problem/borderline cases. Most of those borderline cases have then been rejected. It is only when they go to Johan that they have a chance. It seems that Johan understands the strengths and weaknesses of a super telephoto lens used at (or just after) sunset. Low grain, tack sharp photos usually cannot be if they are being made at 10 minutes after sunset with a 1200mm lens. I use that lens, with such little light, in hopes of getting some dramatic and unique photos that could not exist without that loooooong lens. Then I get, "badblurry", "grain"......It's like saying: "wow, that Harley is fast but it is way too loud.
Mark G
P.S Damn right I'm belly aching! Prior to this new screener thing 99% of my photos were uploaded. And if I have a very good views "per photo avg", well then it looks like the upload % of pre 2001 is correct.
 
KLAX
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 10:32 pm

Mark, if they dont get accepted here, there's a couple other nice websites that probably will, all aviation oriented with lower standards...

-Clovis
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 10:50 pm

I am sure I want to stay with a.net and no one else.
With the amount of good and interesting people here, a.net cannot be beat. Also, the companies who see and want to use our photos here are growing..
Mark G
 
KingWide
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Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 7:30 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 10:53 pm

So Mark, what exactly is your point? Apart from, as it seems to me, another chance to bash the screeners.

I'm personally quite insulted by your insinuation that we, the screeners, don't understand 'the strengths and weaknesses of a super telephoto lens...'.

There's a set of rules for this site which are given to us by Johan and we apply them for him. Many of us, definitely me and I think most of us, continually want to push through different, exciting shots but we have a duty to uphold the rules as laid down by Johan. Number 1 rule is image quality and we have very little leeway on this.

"prior to this new screener thing, 99% of my shots were accepted" - lower standards, less people able to compete with your glass etc. but cutting edge for 2000 is no longer cutting edge for 2002-3. Everyone else has raised their game in the quality stakes and if you don't go with them then you get left behind.

J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sat Nov 23, 2002 11:00 pm

Especially you Kingwide.....You don't understand the strengths and weaknesses of a supertelephoto.......
Mark G
 
pepef
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 3:12 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 12:27 am

Mark G,

You have several spectacular photos in the db. I mean really good.But,

It's like saying: "wow, that Harley is fast but it is way too loud"

exactly what Harley were you talking about? Big grin I agree with the loud part though.

-Peter-
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 1:40 am

How can photos (not photoids in our database) be added to a forum post?
Thanks
Mark Garfinkel
 
joe pries
Posts: 1922
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 1:04 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 1:44 am

......< img src=joepries>.......

Mark, where i wrote my name put in the entire URL and get rid of the dots and space inbetween < and img

Joe
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:05 am

Joe,
How do I make it a url to begin with?
Thanks
 
Ljungdahl
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 2:10 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:15 am

Mark, type like this:

< img src="http://yourwebsitehere">, but the only space should be between "img" and "src", else this won't work.

/Johan
 
Ljungdahl
Posts: 887
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:17 am

Oh, and to create the URL, you got to have your photo online on another website...

/Johan
 
ExitRow
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 4:04 am

A professional photojournalist questioning the abilities and skills of the screeners on A.net.

Gee, I never thought I'd see the day...  Insane

 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 6:11 am


The top two......an A-330 and the 1st sunset are "borderlines" waiting for Johan
and the bottom 4 are rejects
Mark G

if that does not work it is:
http://home.earthlink.net~megarf
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 6:15 am

Sorry again....
my rejects and two borderlines can be found at
http://home.earthlink.net/~megarf

< img src=http://home.earthlink.net/~megarf>
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 6:27 am

 
mirage
Posts: 3612
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 6:40 am

 
User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 4934
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 6:48 am

Mark, FWIW I think your shots that did get accepted are excellent and show much creativity. I tried the link above but it doesn't work. would love to see some of the "rejects". I've gotten the same treatment on some "basic" shots that are really quite good.

Kingwide said that they have a duty to uphold the rules laid down by Johan..but when you browse the new additions each day like I do, you'll still see a big range of quality on some shots. I see dark photos and I see grainy ones. And i know this even from my own uploads: not all screeners judge photos the same way. They can't; they're human. But overall, i agree that screeners are a bit anal on the high quality shots.

bruce

Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
mirage
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 6:54 am

Rejected:








 
User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 4934
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 6:54 am

Oops....ok, I figured out why the link didn't work. i got it now.

I really like the Virgin 747 shot. And the one landing under the moon.

Great work!


bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:35 am



One word wow. What did you use to get that shot.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Dazed767
Posts: 4967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 8:07 am

Good god that moon shot is awsome. Just curious, what was the reason for being rejected on that one?


 
da Fwog
Posts: 845
Joined: Thu Aug 19, 1999 5:25 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 8:50 am

OK, I just don't understand this. The sunset sky shots have a stunning sky, and the large moon shot is a similarly stunning picture. But are these the same photos you submitted? Because they are SMALL - some of them are only 700-odd pixels across, and Airliners.net rules specify that the minimum horizontal size is 800 pixels.

As screeners we are told to apply these rules; if you genuinely have a problem with a rejection (and it seems that you do), please appeal one or more of your pictures and Johan will assess them. It's Johan's site - he can overrule any decision made by the screeners, and we have no problem with you passing photos that we reject to him for his opinion, and we abide by the decsions he makes.

And come on Mark, that Virgin 747 shot is just not up to your standards - it's nowhere near sharp enough. You can do better.

Chris.
 
Delta777-XXX
Posts: 940
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 8:58 am

Mark, the two pictures you said were rejected look great! If the screeners rejected those, then airliners.net is having some serious problems.

If this nonsense, which is truly what it is, continues then I think other sites will eventually become more popular. It will take time, but I assure you it will happen if these screeners dont wake up.

When I come through looking at these pictures, I look for the really cool pictures. I dont click on something because it's great quality, I click on it because it's a great picture. I don't give a shit about the image quality unless it's really bad. Does anybody agree with me on this? Does anybody here think that Mark's shots should have really been rejected?

Hank  Confused
 
vaman
Posts: 316
Joined: Sun Feb 06, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 9:19 am

Part of the "allure" of this site is having the highest quality perfect pictures. Of course it is subjective but tell in life what isn't. If you want to post pics on other sites, then do it. I dont care what other people think about my pics as much as what I think myself. If you are happy with it, then keep it at that. Why should you care if others don't like it. All of the greats in every field have gotten rejected and have failed and continue to do so. what makes them great is there ability to overcome it and there spectacular works are just that. Everyone stop complaing, we all know when we are going in what the "standards" are. If you want to see artistic pics go to photosig. If you want to see high quality airpics come here. If you can get high quality and artistry then kudos to you. We should all strive for that. But until then, if you tihnk your shot is great then it shouldn't matter what a bunch of screeners think.'

my humble 2 euros

L
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 11:57 am

My point is not to be disrepectful to the screeners.....
These pics I posted ARE grainy! Some are also slightly out of focus, but they moved some people enough to writing into this post. I still say that there should be a degree of difficulty consideration. I don't honor me and my photos, I honor the very moment an md-80, on final approach, is seen with a big moon in the background. I waited 20 minutes for the moon to cooperate, and it has taken years (and a stiff neck) to match and visualize the flight paths to the moon. Does'nt that, and the event, warrant a "degree of dificulty" consideration?
Mark G
 
planeboy
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 2:56 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 12:09 pm

Mark,

"Excuse me while I kiss the sky" - quote from Jimi Hendrix

On a more serious note - I believe your eye is very good - perhaps much too good for the technology you are trying to match it with. The moon shots which are your trademark, and other shots, are very creative.

Yes - you have a hundred or so photos here - you could have thousands - but you choose to be selective due to your creativity.

What do I know? I shoot side on shots and boring little planes parked at little airports. My best "moon" shot was perhaps while fishing in Canada and didn't even involve an airplane...

Come back down to earth Mark. Show us some more great shots like you did a while back at Boston. The moon is old - it will be there for a long, long time.

A few shots I like of yours - well I like just about all - but here are a few...



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Garfinkel




View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Garfinkel





View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Garfinkel



Great shots Mark -

 
B-OTCH
Posts: 137
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 12:31 pm

God, if Mark Garfinkel can't get photos accepted here, who can?...There is something seriously wrong here, and its not the photographers...
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 12:36 pm

They volunteer countless hours and we need them. I AM NOT criticizing the screeners!!!! AND will NOT!!! I am questioning the criteria by which a photo will be added>>>
Mark G
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 12:41 pm

Stephen,
Great shot by the way.....Sorry we don't agree on this posted topic though.....

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Stephen Liard


Mark G
 
sunilgupta
Posts: 766
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RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 12:47 pm

Mark, a "wow" is well deserved for all those shots... Clearly, these rejects are a case of following the letter of the law instead of the intent!!!! Appeal all of them IMHO.

Sunil
 
photopilot
Posts: 3061
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 12:57 pm

Hi Mark:

Ok, so it's an imperfect system we live with. But the line has to be drawn somewhere or else we all go out and buy disposable plastic cameras. (Just like Canon's Big grin)

But seriously, as long as you can "see" a photo such as this, when literally every other photographer would have long since put his cameras away for the day means there is hope.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Garfinkel


This shot was accepted into the database. Technically, it's not perfect or even tack sharp. But as a composition of light and color under extremely difficult technical conditions, it gets my thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

Even if the regular screeners reject a photo such as this, and it only gets in after Johan makes an exception, then I still believe that it is worth the appeal. This type of photo would definately fall into the unusual category and would most probably fall outside of any normal set of guidelines that screeners must work under. So I think it unfair to blame them when they enforce these guidelines. And without guidelines of some sort, then unfortunately there are still some photographers out there who totally lack the ability to subjectively judge their own images. They will continue to upload and whine over what can only be called crap images. Even if we had a special upload peocedure for the upload of these special type of images only (outside the norm) then you and I know that some folks would still upload crap and think it acceptable.

So please keep stretching our view of aviation and entertaining us in the process.

thanks
Steve Liard
 
flpuck6
Posts: 2047
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 1999 12:32 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 1:16 pm

PHENOMENAL shots Mark. LOVE seeing those points of view from "our" airport!

There has to be some credit to the degree of difficulty in taking a shot!!!

You know you have the support of most of us here.

-Chris
Bonjour Chef!
 
joe pries
Posts: 1922
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 1:04 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:21 pm

i always end up getting involved somehow, damn!

 Big grin
 
planeboy
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 2:56 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:34 pm

Hey Joe - where ya goin' with that digital camera in your hand...

Another "Hendrix" quote on my part - a mixup of words however -

You're famous Joe - on this site - so your name will surface -

--- --- - damn! --- - --- ---
 
serge
Posts: 1903
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 2:01 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 3:14 pm

Damn... I can't believe it! These are some of the best damn late evening/night action photos I have seen.

This is stunning as hell!:



I agree if changes in the screening process aren't implemented soon, people will start to leave to other sites. If these can't make it, what can? A side on WN 737 DSLR shot? lol! (it has its place though I must admit).

But great shots Mark.

...Serge
 
Ljungdahl
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 2:10 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Sun Nov 24, 2002 7:47 pm

...yep, I agree, those shots are amazing!!

I'm truly impressed, Mark!!  Wow!

...but all of you in this thread, who's complaining about the screening process, is it really that difficult to understand that these people, who are screening whatever people might upload, are only following the rules set up by the owner of this site...

And they are doing this without any form of payment, and there is complains, moaning, whining, but I still think that they are doing a great job, making this site to the very top of aviation sites!

Some of you seems to forget that part!

God, if Mark Garfinkel can't get photos accepted here, who can?...There is something seriously wrong here, and its not the photographers...

...well, I checked, and of last 24-48 hours there was 345 new photos in the DB, and of last 7 days there was 1425 new photos, so obviously some photos of some photographers can make it...

...somehow I wonder if any of those photog's are taking part of this moaning process...  Big grin

Johan
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Mon Nov 25, 2002 12:58 am

Moaning process Johan?
Yep, I am guilty and I stand here today to appologize (to the screeners) that this thread became a screener bashing thread. I should have known it would. Yes I got my point across and some may find an appologee easy now after the damage is done...BUT...
I truly wanted to have a discussion regarding the criteria/rules by which a photo is added...Not the implimentation of those rules.....I guess I was questioning Johan and not the screeners...I have tried to talk about this before in other posts over the last few months..
Mark G

 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:03 am

I said

"Most of those borderline cases have then been rejected. It is only when they go to Johan that they have a chance. It seems that Johan understands the strengths and weaknesses of a super telephoto lens used at (or just after) sunset. Low grain, tack sharp photos usually cannot be if they are being made at 10 minutes after sunset with a 1200mm lens"


In other words. The screeners, under the rules, are killing or giving Johan borderline stuff. At that point Johan might see something so different in a photo that he may bypass his own criteria....I guess that's cool. Checks and balances...
Mark G
 
Ljungdahl
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 2:10 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:15 am

Mark, when I wrote about the "moaning process", I was not referring to your posts, my apologies if it appeared that way...

...no, there are people here on the forums that are complaining every now and then about the screeners, taking almost every possible opportunity to criticize the staff here, it seems that they look after this type of thread to join and complain a little bit more...

...as I said, Mark, I am really impressed of your aviation photography,
and I was not aiming my former post towards you.

Johan
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:31 am

Johan,
Thanks....
Sorry the thread got as big and ugly as a monster...
Mark
Facts remain...That a.net is a GREAT site and the photos, whether they are side on historical accounts or lunar landing, are a fun part of our lives  Smile
 
Ljungdahl
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2002 2:10 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Mon Nov 25, 2002 1:44 am

...Mark, I can't agree more, and that's exactly what my point was, those few members of this great site, that many times attempt to pull it (the Site) down in the mud, by all their boring complaints...

But they will not succeed with that, no way!!!

...Johan
 
ake0404ar
Posts: 2379
Joined: Wed May 24, 2000 10:55 am

RE: Border Cases To Go To Johan/ Rejections...

Mon Nov 25, 2002 5:07 am

Missed most of the thread.

Mark your work is phenomenal but creativity has little place on a.net these days.

You can ask any pro and they probably will tell you, that the composition is what counts, even if the photo is slighty out of focus, grainy or whatever.

Johan has given out the rules and if 1200mm shots are not welcome anymore, well tough luck.

I can feel your pain and anger, happened to me multible times and my photos are not nearly as good as yours.

If they get rejected, appeal them and see what happens, or start shooting Rwy 22R departure from the roof top of parking garage Terminal B. They are boring as hell but sure will get accepted.

You have used your DSLR, right?

Vasco

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