joe pries
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What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:36 am

I sincerely hope that this thread does not get deleted, while I am putting on a url, it is in no way advertising, I just want to share with all of you a part of this hobby that you may not be aware of and also want to share with you why people here, young and old, put up with waiting 2 weeks to get their slides back, and put up with scratches and other annoyances sometimes because they know that its all worth it in the end. Have a look and keep looking cause this is the first 65 of 200,000 to come.

http://airlinehobby.com/listings/index.cfm?category=407189183

 
flpuck6
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:46 am

Phenomenal stuff!!! PHEW!!!

I will admit though, while people think I am nuts about the time and money I invest in my hobby, I do not foresee myself paying $100 for a SLIDE. I am amazed at how there are people even "crazier" than myself lol!

Thanks for the link Joe.

-Chris

Bonjour Chef!
 
Skymonster
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:51 am

A fair number of my own Kodachrome originals are half that age now... Another 20 years and I hope I might have quite a valuable collection Big grin

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
joe pries
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:52 am

Chris,
there are alot of young guys here (degroot, rindt, borda, mclaughlin, myself, and others) who know the rewards of shooting the film that is gonna make them very very happy people years from now. I always try to tell people about it but they say im old fashioned and they dont care, but still, I always try to grow the collector's base because that can only be a positive thing for the hobby. And there are plenty of people who will pay 100 bucks for a slide, in fact one last year went for over 400 dollars and it was an LTU A330- go figure  Big grin

Joe
 
ake0404ar
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:53 am

Joe,

why would you say that this post might get deleted. I see nothing wrong with it.

About the slides, well I am no slidetrader and I would not pay USD 20.00 for one, 100 would be totally out of the question. SOme of them are indeed nuts!

Vasco
 
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JeffM
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:55 am

Wow, I never knew! In twenty years of photography I never shot one single slide. I always wanted to, but just never did for lack of viewing equipment.

Interesting stuff thanks Joe.

Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate it.

Jeff
 
joe pries
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:01 am

Jeff,
the purpose of this thread is to show guys like yourself who really dont know- whats out there. Jeff i always tell people- you can shoot kodachrome and if you can do it half decent- even with action shots, you can go a long way towards having the film pay alot of your expenses of this very expensive hobby (and who the hell does not like the sound of that). For me, if i get one guy to switch to kodachrome, already all the effort is worth it.

Joe
 
flpuck6
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:19 am

Oh Joe, I've been shooting good 'ole Chrome for a few years now and I'm only 22  Wink/being sarcastic

I'm not throwing out the idea that one day I will be totally 'chrome-crazy, I'm just not right now. Maybe when I'm 50 my slides will be worth something lol.

-Chris
Bonjour Chef!
 
flpuck6
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:20 am

Oh and the $400 LTU -330, was it the experimental scheme with the Swiss reggie, no?

-Chris
Bonjour Chef!
 
Shawn Patrick
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:26 am

Well... why choose kodachrome? What's so good about it? Isn't Provia an excellent film as well?
 
joe pries
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:32 am

yes Chris, it was the experimental scheme.

Shawn i've explained it in the past- kodachrome, while not the best film out there, is good and the reason collectors pay big bucks for it is because it does not fade after many years (in good storage) and can only be developed in a few labs in the world unlike your provia which you and i can develop in our bathroom at home- with cheap chemicals- so collectors dont want anything to do with it. Plus Provia while an excellent film has not proven that i can maintain color balance after 50+ years -it probably can- but if im spending alot of money on a slide/s probably aint gonna cut it

Joe
 
jettrader
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:39 am

"...why choose kodachrome? What's so good about it? Isn't Provia an excellent film as well?"

Oops  Wink/being sarcastic And so it begins...again!

Cheers!
Dean (collector of any DC8 slides...but especially on K25!)
Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!
 
Skymonster
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:47 am

Guys,

Whilst I fully support what Joe's saying, I think we should all get real. Specials and one-offs are one thing, but a slide of your common-or-garden American MD-80 isn't ever going to make $100, let alone $400, no matter how good it is.

The Stratocruiser pictures are making big bucks because there was hardly anyone out there shooting colour slide film in that era, and as a consequence high-quality original slides are very difficult to find and extremely rare. Now a days, slide shooters are ten-a-penny and with most subjects being shot many more times, the value simply isn't going to be there.

On the other hand, I know for a fact I have a few Kodachromes of a subject that NO ONE else in the world has, or ever will have - a totally unique livery combination. One day I'll sell a few of those and I should make a few bucks doing so - I might even scan one for airliners.net one of these days!

Interesting thing is, of course, that as more people turn to digital the number of slide shooters might actually start to decrease, and the market become more restricted again. This could, in turn, ultimately lead to a general increase in values for future stuff shot on slide. Of course though, the prices are only supported by collectors who continue to want slides. Once no one shoots slides, and all those that collect slides pass away, the market goes completely.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
andyhunt
Crew
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:49 am

Hey Joe,

This is a K64 slide from me:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andrew Hunt



Couldn't resist a free plug Big grin Big grin

Andrew
Full frame always beats post processing
 
Guest

RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:50 am

Gee and I thought Kodachrome was king because of its proven ability to have the colors hold up over time. It was the perfect film for recording history back in the days when most color films faded over the years. I never knew it had anything to do with making money off them. If that was my collection I would consider donating it to some historical society.
 
Shawn Patrick
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:50 am

LOL Dean

Well I guess I'll try out some Kodachrome then... Which ISO do you use, usually?
 
Skymonster
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:56 am

Well I guess I'll try out some Kodachrome then... Which ISO do you use, usually?

Ignorring the horrible 200, Kodachrome only comes in one flavour now... 64.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
joe pries
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:25 am

Richard,
youve been against me talking up kodachrome forever so this is nothing new coming from you- you made a personal decision to switch from kodachrome in the 70s to prints only-(i still struggle to comprehend why but i dont think i ever will), but you should understand that people they use their slides to support their hobby which is very costly so I dont agree with what you say that " I never knew it had anything to do with making money off them" because you've known for a long time now that people acquire, trade and sell their kodachromes

Andy- nice shot, i shot the a340 in that scheme (on kodachrome) and 744 (on you know what)

Joe

 
joe pries
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:31 am

Andy (skymonster),
you're not 100% right about the AA MD80- if you have nice shots of the AA MD80s with TWA registrations, they will very much be very valuable  Big grin

Joe
 
jettrader
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:33 am

Shawn,

I've never shot K25. I have had a lot of nice shots on K64, which as Andy points out is the only Kodachrome available now...unless you can prise a rool of K25 from Tommy [Mogren]* or A.N.Other slide/ramp shooter who stockpiled the stuff when it went out of production.

My collection of DC8 slides is largely brought and paid for. Most of what I want isn't flying any more.

Regards,
Dean

* apologies if it wasn't you Tommy - I know someone on this forum mentioned they were going to buy a fridge full  Wink/being sarcastic
Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!
 
skyliner
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 3:59 am

I think Andy's understanding of the dynamics of future supply/demand for slides is right on. Thirty to forty years is a long time to wait for a big payoff, which may not be there at all in the future. As long as there are collectors, shooting extras is an excellent way to pay for film, but I think that it's dangerous to project present conditions into the long-term future. There are still good reasons for shooting slides if you want (I am), but I wouldn't be making retirement plans for 2030 based on unloading my collection of Kodachromes shot today or in the last five to ten years.
George
 
joe pries
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 4:10 am

George,
ofcourse I agree with you, but especially in today's world making any long term predictions is like stock picking with darts- you just dont know. But also you see, I go to alot of conventions throughout the year here in the U.S. and abroad and I see plenty of enthusiastic collectors young and old who are in it for the long haul. Granted, if KR production ceases then there will be some very serious issues to consider. Regarding shooting kodachrome for retirement, like all investment vehicles, diversification is paramount, that is why 15% of my gross pay goes straight into my 401K and part of my gross goes into my daughter's 509b -my slide collection is not a factor. Anyone who depends on their slide collection to carry them through their retirement years is out of their mind  Big grin

Joe
 
timdegroot
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 4:31 am

Joe, I was going trough Clint's stuff this morning and I just watched in awe.
That guy is gonna make a F%*$ing fortune with those slides.
Then again ,some people must be going broke very soon Smile

I'm not gonna bid on any of them though, way too expensive for my sake and I don't even collect oldies very much. I've decided to focus on Airbus from now on, especially the A330/A340......much cheaper alternative and still possible to get a very complete collection.

Tim

Alderman Exit
 
n314as
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 4:46 am

Andy

Realising that there are more digital cameras out there, there will be less slide
photographers around, thus, yes, the slides will be limited. But if slides go, the
value of the older ones will not disappear. These old slides are historical archives
or artifacts. Historians and aviation photographers will pass them along to others.
They are the original photographic record of specific aircraft and will always be
in demand for publications/etc (with all due respect to the rights of the photographer).
These are of better grain and quality, which it is very difficult to reproduce in film (dupes). Same thing goes for National Geographic archives. If slides disappear
now, then would you think that the value of the Afghan Girl (cover) slide will do too? I doubt that very much.

Digital is nice in some respect as the quality has increased and you get instant
satisfaction. You can also make some money from digital as one can sell a good
print of a shot, pending that shot is not distributed on the net and the photographer
keeps it in his/her file. There are many good action shots which have been taken
by digital cameras that warrant this. Still, the digital image, if distributed in good quality,
has no value. Everyone will have it. The people on those auction sites make their image small for that purpose.

Take care

Joe Fernandez
Miami FL
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wietse
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 5:06 am

I have a slide on Airlinehobby as well:

http://www.airlinehobby.com/listings/details/index.cfm?itemnum=406918077

It stands at 7,50 right now... not that high, but bear in mind that it is Provia and not shot with L lenses or something.

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
DB777
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:23 am

Back to the retirement money from the slides issue. If he has 200,000 slides he's going to put up and he only got an average of $10 for each (ridiculously low for some of them), that's $2,000,000US. That's assuming that all of them have value to someone out there.

What's his address again?  Big grin Hahahaha........ I'd be putting those slides in a bunch of huge safety deposit boxes temporarily until sold off.

Don
Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
 
sunilgupta
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:47 am

Clint Groves is not trying to cash in on his collection... he apparently has serious financial problems and he says that most of that money will go to the IRS…

Sunil
 
skyliner
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:56 am

Joe:
I still wonder how many slides of current items are out there, versus how many slide collectors there will be in the future; time will tell! I also wonder why I didn't shoot multiples when I was starting out, for example,


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © George W. Hamlin



This CV880 trip departed daily right before my shift started, for a whole summer. I shot it once, one slide only, and was happy to do so! (Of course, the weather wasn't good every day, and with traffic getting to JFK, sometimes you were lucky to get there on time at all.) Probably had a lot to do with 1) lack of funds and 2) didn't know anyone else who collected slides. I suspect that 10 or 20 extras of this one would have paid for a few rolls now.

Don:
I hope that Clint is able to market the entire collection, and make that much money. However, to do so, he needs to find 1000 collectors who each buy 200 slides at 10 dollars each; 2000 dollars per person. Are there that many collectors willing/able to spend that much money? Again, we should know in the not distant future; I'm looking forward to the results. Lots of great items will be changing hands soon--this is a unique opportunity.
George
 
RayPettit
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 8:30 am

I was too spellbound by this collection. Even if I don't bid for one single item, it will be a pleasure just browsing through every few days.
Its a real shame that such shots will never see airliners.net as they weren't taken by you yourself. I have bought slides over the years, including a number of oldies at low prices, but I'm not able to share them with the wider community. But I'm rather hoping that at least some of our own pictures will still be viewable on the net once we reach that big ramp in the sky.

Ray
 
joe pries
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:54 am

George,
been there done that my friend- when i started kodachrome in 1990 i had a friend that worked for the FAA and had full access at jfk, better access than people who work for the port authority (FAA goes anywhere anytime and no one questions them), problem was this- i shot with the right lens- 50mm, but from a mile away so most slides were a waste of time- so the point is, we all screwed up in the beginning, its the lucky boys like dmitry and rindt and degroot who are shooting right while they are 15-17 years old, not 16 like i was and didnt have a clue, or like you in the beginning.
In regards to how many people will spend x amt of dollars, i'll gladly spend 2-3K on someone's collection of oldies and if they are exceptional i will spend alot more, either to keep in my collection or sell some off to reduce my costs of ownership- and there are plenty of guys out there like me- belive me, im not saying there are tons of guys like this but there are enough that old slides of good subjects will be gobbled up- each and every time, no question about it.

Joe
 
joe pries
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:59 am

For those of you who have read this entire thread, I thought you'd get a kick out of this comment about this slide, read on...

http://airlinehobby.com/listings/details/index.cfm?itemnum=407458500
 
joe pries
Posts: 1922
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 11:57 am

Andy (skymonster), see link below- not only stuff from the 50's and 60's brings in heavy dough. btw, im hotshotsjp on there

http://airlinehobby.com/welcome/top10.cfm

Joe
 
flpuck6
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 12:46 pm

Back up a few posts...

skymonster (Andy) wrote:
I think we should all get real. Specials and one-offs are one thing, but a slide of your common-or-garden American MD-80 isn't ever going to make $100, let alone $400, no matter how good it is.

WHO EVER SAID they were expecting an AA MD80 slide to get $100??? PLEASE, with all due respect, watch the kinds of assumptions you make. Either that or please think carefully about how you phrase the point you're trying to get across.

Respectfully,
-Chris
Bonjour Chef!
 
DB777
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:32 pm

George and Suni: whatever the motive I wish him the best of luck in disposing of his collection. I think he's doing the best thing by auctioning them off on airlinerhobby.com where he'll probably get the best prices for them anywhere. Like George says, this is a golden opportunity for serious collectors to obtain some real treasures. Just seeing the small images on the auction site is a thrill for me and I'm looking forward to seeing his future items.

Don
Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
 
joe pries
Posts: 1922
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 1:54 pm

Hey Don, you have some kodachromes of calder dc8 no? put one up  Big grin

Joe
 
Carlos Borda
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 2:24 pm

Boy would I love to get my hands on this one day....


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Don Boyd



Joe writes:

>>Hey Don, you have some kodachromes of calder dc8 no? put one up<<
 
Guest

RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 3:28 pm

OKAY......what non of you know is the reason Clint is selling this stuff is because he has BIG medical bills and needs money to pay them off. It won't matter how much money Clint makes, he will still be in debt with medical bills, but the money made from these slides will help pay off a lot of the bills, but not all. You can always buy all 200,000 slides for $60,000.

Stephen
 
Alaskaairlines
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 4:57 pm

Great thread Joe! I meet Joe a couple years ago (over the net, actually I just met him in person a couple of weeks back), I accidentally bumped across his web-site, (not trying to advertise), I was just interested in aircraft pictures, and I bumped across the previous auctions he had there, so I thought about it and bid on a slide (which was a steal, AC A340 with no leaf on the tail ($2), well I thought I would buy it and make a print. Well thats how I got started and then somehow found a.net.

Joe told me from the very first e-mails that Kodachrome is the best way to go, if you want the slides to last in the long run.

I was looking through Clints slides, was stunned, If he sells every slide, he'll become a millionaire! Well thats not the reason I am in this hobby, its just a fun thing to do on my spare time.

And I have sold quite a few slides in the past year I have been shooting, and I have been on the ramp only once! Lot of the stuff is outside the perimeters of the airport. I am not against green, its actually easier to shoot than K64, I have shot chrome in horrible weather, and only about 10% of those slides are sharp, very hard, but again thats experience (don't have much of it).
Sorry for veering off the subject, I am sure there are plenty of new guys coming, hope you guys listen to the advise of those with experience.

And, you can make some $$$ here, just takes a while and a lot of patience.

Just my, uhhh, 3 1/2 cents.

-Dmitry
 
Alaskaairlines
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 5:04 pm

Is that how much he wants for all of them? $60,000? Where did you get this LGW?

I don't think you will find anybody out there who would do it, oh wait, Joe why not? You could become a millionaire! You'd get a lot more firends!  Big grin

-Dmitry
 
rindt
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 5:28 pm

Stephen - if he's selling that whole collection for $60,000, where can I send a cheque? The guy has close to $2000US in bids already, they aren't anywhere close to being over, and that's just for 90 slides. So realistically, that just ain't gonna happen. At this rate, his collection is worth $6-7 million.

But I think what isn't mentioned, is the sentimental value of these old slides. I have quite a few dandies in my collection, but even in 40 years (with value probably well into the hundreds of dollars per slide), I just can't see myelf ever wanting to get rid of any of them, especially one-offs. My collection is my little oyster, and with all the money I spend on it, I hope it's something my children (when the time for ankle-biters appears) and their children, etc, etc. will enjoy. The stuff I shoot today, of course I'm always keeping reserved spares for sale at a time in the very distant future, but slides of Canadian Pacific DC-8-53s in the original scheme I just will never envision getting rid of. Once it's in my collection, it's in for good  Smile So if any of you want to unload some old shots, rest assured, they're safe with me  Big grin

Cheers,
-Rob

BTW - that Calder shot is making me froth at the mouth... what a beauty.
How much do you want for it? Name your price.  Big grin



What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
rindt
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 5:55 pm

Dean,

"I've never shot K25. I have had a lot of nice shots on K64, which as Andy points out is the only Kodachrome available now...unless you can prise a rool of K25 from Tommy [Mogren]* or A.N.Other slide/ramp shooter who stockpiled the stuff when it went out of production."

I pity you. I'm happy I snatched some up just before the end of production, and the results of that film are just incredible. I still have a few rolls, but it's gonna cost you one arm and one heck of a leg to get one from me hahaha Big grin

and Hunt, now I know why that shot looked so good - Kodachrome pulls through every time  Big grin


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rob Rindt

- here's a fine K25 example, and another reason why you should never hold out on hammering something when you see it... turns out I only saw this puppy once, and now it's gone back to Delta after only a couple of months. And for those that think stuff today won't be worth nearly as much in 40 years as the stuff from 40 years ago is today, I would probably agree - UNLESS the shot is absolutely perfect, and that it is extremely tight, full-sun, Kodachrome 25/64, and sharp. I've found that anything from 45mm-200mm is acceptable, as long as the other core requirements are met, then the shots will have high value, because they will stick-out. Just because many people shoot something doesn't necessarily mean many people shoot it well.

-Rob





What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
ckw
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:28 pm

Still, the digital image, if distributed in good quality, has no value. Everyone will have it

I'm intrigued by this slide collecting ... where does the value lie? In the artifact (the slide) itself or the image contained. If the latter, then I see no reason why digital images would not have a similar value at some point in the future.

Likewise, I'm not clear on the quality issue ... OK K64/K25 is desirable for archival reasons, but digital images are arguably better in this respect ... no offence to Clint, but the image quality does not seem to be a major factor - some of those shots are well below A.net standards.

Is the real value in the fact that only a limited number of original slides of a certain aircraft exist? In which case it is quite feasible that collectors may in future turn to digital images - in their RAW state (possible with some form of date authentication or digital signature). I'm not sure that distributing .jpgs on the 'net would necessarily devalue these, anymore than prints of a work of art devalue the original - in fact they may increase the desire to own the original.

I really don't understand the motivation of the slide collectors ... ie, what it is exactly they think they are buying. When it comes down to it, the true value of a slide is just a few pence - anything else is a highly artificial construct which can be influenced by many factors ... perhaps there are things we digital shooters should be doing now to create a market for our collections.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
Skymonster
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:34 pm

JoePries said Andy (skymonster), see link below- not only stuff from the 50's and 60's brings in heavy dough. btw, im hotshotsjp on there

With respect Joe, I can point to something slightly out of the ordinary with every one of those slides in that link - either not current, or unique livery, or something...

Chris said: WHO EVER SAID they were expecting an AA MD80 slide to get $100??? PLEASE, with all due respect, watch the kinds of assumptions you make. Either that or please think carefully about how you phrase the point you're trying to get across.

Chris, no need to get excitable.

The point I was trying to get across was that the notion that "if you shoot Kodachrome you're going to make money from your photography" is a bit of a fallacy. Quote JP "there are alot of young guys here who know the rewards of shooting the film that is gonna make them very very happy people years from now"

I also said quite clearly that I agreed in principal with what Joe was saying, but underlying that agreement is an awareness that the really valuable slides generally need to be taken under fairly closely constrained conditions, and must predominantly be of "rare" subjects.

A cursory examination of the "ending soon" auctions on airlinehobby shows that almost all of these auctions are closing with top bids somewhat under $10. Whilst I accept that this means you could pay for a roll of film by selling just one slide, photographers new to the slide shooting game should be aware that the scope for going out there today and shooting a slide that will make much more than bare double figures, let alone three figures, is very limited, at least if they're planning to sell in the short term.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
Skymonster
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 6:46 pm

Colin said: When it comes down to it, the true value of a slide is just a few pence - anything else is a highly artificial construct which can be influenced by many factors ...

Yes, that's true, but its also true of almost anything else that anyone collects. The true worth of some of the most valuable paintings in the world is next to nothing if you only take into consideration the cost of the canvas, the paints and the frame. What changes the most valuable paintings into what they are is the way in which the paint and the canvas were used, and the fact that the painting is unique. I see little difference between paintings and slides in that respect (OK, so a slide will never achieve the value of an original painting, but in principal), albeit within the constraint that a slide may be one of a limited number, rather than being totally unqiue. The bottom line is that there is almost always a market for ANYTHING that is in limited supply, and there is no reason why slides shouldn't be the same as anything else - a fact that is proven by this topic.

Colin said: Perhaps there are things we digital shooters should be doing now to create a market for our collections

Perhaps there are...! The biggest contraint I see to digital becoming truely valuable is that copies of an original can be made without any loss of quality. Not withstanding any restriction in supply by those who take the pictures, the fact that a digital image can be reproduced time and time again without any loss of quality makes the end result far less valuable than anything that is either unique, or cannot be copied without degredation.

Furthermore, the platform for digital images is somewhat more limited than for slides. Almost anyone in the world can hold a slide up to the light and see the image, or buy a cheap viewer to appreciate what they've bought in more detail. The proportion of the world's population with computers is still very much more limited than that.

Having said that, I suspect that the may be a market for digital images in the future, but I cannot see it become as valuable as the slide market for a very very long time to come, if ever.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
Alaskaairlines
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 7:14 pm

Rob, very well said!

BTW, did you really get to shoot 3 rolls of the Westjet B738? Must have held short for quite some time!

-Dmitry
 
Carlos Borda
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 8:13 pm

I would say it's the limited number of *original* slides of a certain aircraft that can really drive the price up Colin... which is something that can never be done or guaranteed with prints or even digital images.
As with prints... you can keep reproducing (make copies) of digital images over and over again and all have the same exact quality. With a slide... your indeed holding an *original* limited work of art that cannot be duplicated it it's original quality. So a slide is a one-of-a-kind in many ways... sort of like a Picaso painting is. For example... there's only 1 Mona Lisa... but there's plenty of prints of it available. Which one holds the ultimate utmost value? The actual *original* Mona Lisa of course...

Slides can be duped of course... but the degraded quality of duped slides is obvious and very easily recognizable from the originals. The same way experts can tell a real Picaso or other works of arts from a fake one. For a long while Clint was even selling off dupes of his originals (and selling them well too), just like a painter would sell prints of his original works of art. But now that Clint is selling off his actual originals it's like buying actual Picaso's... each single original slide being is it's own genuine one-of-a-kind.

Myself... I'm not really a big slide collector of other people's slides or even a slide buyer. I do trade slides with friends as a way of providing them with something they other wise cannot really shoot themselves, but for the most part I shoot for just myself. I get offers all the time via a.net from slide traders around the world to trade, but personally me I just can't keep up with the hectic pace of it all.... so I prefer to shoot for myself. However what I do, is shoot multiple rolls of a particular tasty item which I think might have a future value one day down the road. I have boxes and boxes of K64 slides that I've shot all put away... these days I'll basically shoot 1 or 2 rolls on anything hot. Definitely not AA MD80s (unless it's those TWA registered ones!)  Big grin

These got 2 rolls from me each recently... but why? It's a new plane right? Well, when Clint was shooting planes back in the day they were all new planes too. Given Aeromar's past history of airplane acquisitions/leases I don't think these will be around for a long period of time (I hope not anyways).
And if they are around for a long while, it's still not common for them to get shot 50mm K25/K64 sunny side on which is what the majority of slide collectors will only buy.
These planes do not also "get around" to places like FRA, ZRH or CDG where they could also easily get hammered by the slide shooters there.

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Carlos Borda



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Photo © Carlos Borda



Alot of this is like gambling in a way, you take chances... another example. I shot maybe 10 slides of this UAL 767-200 back in April 2001 because to me it was just an "everyday common" subject.
5 months later this particular plane played a major part in the terrorist events of Sept 11th and now I get slide buyers emailing me all the time via a.net asking me if have spares to sell, which I don't.

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Photo © Carlos Borda



Here's a list of the top 10 auctioned slides from that slide auction site... the top one isn't even an old plane or a Boeing. It's a one off scheme on an LTU A330 that lasted all but a single day... sold for $424!! I see that number and I still can't believe it, amazing... there''s some real crazy MO FO's out there.  Nuts  Wow!
http://www.airlinehobby.com/welcome/top10.cfm

~Los

Colin writes:

>>Is the real value in the fact that only a limited number of original slides of a certain aircraft exist? In which case it is quite feasible that collectors may in future turn to digital images - in their RAW state (possible with some form of date authentication or digital signature). I'm not sure that distributing .jpgs on the 'net would necessarily devalue these, anymore than prints of a work of art devalue the original - in fact they may increase the desire to own the original.<<
 
ckw
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 8:32 pm

Andy said

and there is no reason why slides shouldn't be the same as anything

I agree this is so (though not necesarily how it should be!), and wasn't trying to say otherwise - but rather trying to think round what gives a slide value. If it is in fact simply it's rarity (as opposed to any intrinsic value), then it would seem that we need to add some kind of artificial construct to digital images to ensure that the RAW file is indeed unique (a digital signature?). The fact that a perfect copy can be made (but sans signature) should not effect the value of the original from a collectors point of view - similar to the difference in value of signed and unsigned prints of a painting.

the platform for digital images is somewhat more limited than for slides

well, I accept that I can't hold a digital file up to the light ... but I would place a small wager that there are more housholds with computers than slide projectors already ... furthermore, changes in the music industry (MP3 for instance), digital TV etc. etc. will mean that "digital devices" - not necessarily computers will be as general as mobile phones, in say, 3 years - in fact, I could well see G3 phones quickly becoming the medium by which collectors could exchange digital images - or at least previews.

I should say I'm not really interested in this collecting business from a personal point of view - for me an image be it slide or digital is simply the raw material from which a marketable product is made (print, magazine publication etc.), but I've always been fascinated by the "collecting gene" and the whole philosophy behind the valuing of works of art ... and if I can properly understand the process and use it to my advantage then all the better!

Cheers,

Colin



Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
jettrader
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:06 pm

Colin,

Further to your suggestion that some form of digital signature be attached to a digital image to in some way distinguish it from copies to in some way make the "original" (whatever that is) more "valuable" (however that might be defined) than a copy. I see little point in attempting to do this as I subscribe to most of the "diminishing value" theories set out above.

Granted there are those with the collector gene (you put it so eloquently  Big thumbs up) who will always want something they can hold/touch/feel and will take pleasure from the "it's mine!" feeling, but I believe there are two main reasons why this will change.

Firstly I believe that as we move progressively towards a "throw away" culture where everything is considered to be increasingly transient and fleeting that this collector gene will become increasingly rare. This coupled with increasing "coverage" will mean that there are more and more originals to be had and relatively fewer collectors who crave those originals.

Secondly I also think it increasingly likely that there will be less and less distinction made between originals and copies as technology provides more and more means by which a copy can be made to be, to all intents and purposes, the same as the original.

Just my humble 2 cents and all that...but an interesting thread developing here  Big thumbs up

Regards,
Dean
Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!
 
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Fri Nov 29, 2002 9:56 pm

Colin said: I should say I'm not really interested in this collecting business from a personal point of view - for me an image be it slide or digital is simply the raw material from which a marketable product is made (print, magazine publication etc.), but I've always been fascinated by the "collecting gene" and the whole philosophy behind the valuing of works of art ... and if I can properly understand the process and use it to my advantage then all the better!

Ah, so if you could find a way of making money from collectors through digital images, then you'd understand the concept and then that'd be fine! Big grin

Seriously, Vasco alluded to the problem with the saleability of digital imagery to the collectors market... A copy of a slide will show some degredation of the image quality, whereas a copy of a digital original (whether tagged with a signature or not) is far less likely to show degredation. What we want is "perfect" images, and it is the rarity of these that increases the value - digital takes away that rarity of "perfect" images, and therefore I cannot see a high-value market for digital imagery developing in the near term future.

I believe that the slide trading market will continue for a long long time, and won't significantly be eroded by a gradual converstion of some photographers o digital. Even myself as a digital photographer, I want and still do take SLIDES of "rare" subjects, not so much to make money, but because whatever anyone else says I still regard that slide as a more permanent record than a digital image. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's my choice.

Photography, to me, is about a permantent record rather than just about making money. Your view that an image is solely a means with which to make money (for me an image be it slide or digital is simply the raw material from which a marketable product is made) is likely to become more and more accepted by the market you seek to take these images to, but as I say I cannot see digital images becoming a significant money earner for anyone in the sale-to-collector market for some time to come, if ever.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
ckw
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RE: What I Always Talk About And People Think Im Nuts

Sat Nov 30, 2002 12:00 am

so if you could find a way of making money from collectors through digital images, then you'd understand the concept and then that'd be fine

Too right! Though the understanding bit isn't obligatory  Smile

Your view that an image is solely a means with which to make money

I probably could of expressed myself better - what I meant was that I didn't see the image itself as having any commerical value (as slide collectors apparently do), but the commerical value only occurs when the images are put to a purpose.

In other words, though my images have huge emotional value for me, I can't put a commercial value on them. The same picture used inside a magazine might be worth £20 ... on the cover £100 or more. However, as an amatuer, I can't sit back smugly and say I have xthousand pounds worth of images because for 90% of those shots that potential value will never be realised.

Even for the professional or photo library, it is hard to ascertain the true value of a given image ... for "insurance purposes" probably the best you can do is take the total value of your business and divide by the number of images.

this collector gene will become increasingly rare

perhaps ... or more fanatical as collectibles decrease in number. There does seem to be a compulsion amongst most people to collect things - if it is something hardwired into our gene pool, it will take many many generations to diminish.

I cannot see a high-value market for digital imagery developing in the near term future.

don't know ... why is a 1st edition book more valuable to collectors than any other? Or a signed copy? Same book, same quality ... perhaps there is some need in people to find a means of differentiating mass produced objects so as to create a means of satisfying that collecting impulse. If this is the case - and I'm simply hypothesising here - what do you think could be the "collectibility factor" of the digital image? Are we risking throwing away something now which at a later date might be important?

For instance, hands up all those who wish they'd kept the original boxes for all the toys they had when kids!

One thing just occurs to me - the EXIF data may become important - a sort of digital letter of provenance, so it may be essential to not only keep that data, but also to be careful that it is not embedded into any copies you might distribute. Other things that might become collectable are images associated with a particular type of camera ... or even a specific camera. Or perhaps someone might want to collect images taken with, say, every lens in the Canon range on every model of camera ... in a few years a shot taken by a D30 using the 1200mm f5.6 could be worth thousands!

Cheers,

Colin




Colin K. Work, Pixstel

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