jderden777
Posts: 1677
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 9:56 am

"You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:22 am

well folks,
i believe i've just spent my last day at this spot at my local airport, Tri-Cities Regional...

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Photo © Jonathan Derden
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Photo © Jonathan Derden


Chris Starnes and I were spotting (just about an hour ago) over in the tower parking lot (previously been ok for spotting)...we were there for a few arrivals but then an airport cop showed up, and told us that we could not take pictures anymore. we showed him proper ID and then after a few minutes of checking whatever he checked, he came back to us and just said "well gentlemen, don't come back"...so we left kinda disappointed, especially because while he had been talking to us a dash 8 landed  Wink/being sarcastic they said "you know those guys that got arrested for taking pictures of the TVA damn? well, taking pictures at an airport is even worse"...but it was kinda weird, mainly because i had never had any problems with that spot before except right after 9/11 when the FAA facilities were closed off to the public. so we left, and waved goodbye to this spot that we loved...

::sighs:: another spot falls victim to the "laws" after 9/11....

jonathan d.

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Photo © Jonathan Derden

"my soul is in the sky" - shakespeare
 
Continental
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 7:37 am

Wait, were you on public prop.??

co
 
voodoo
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:10 am

Next time, engage in sport rocketry there.
Its still legal until May 24. http://www.nytimes.com/2003/03/09/national/09ROCK.html?ex=1048221496&ei=1&en=c2eebe617a0d4ed0

` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
LOT767-300ER
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:16 am

Why dont you just come back?

If I left like you did and not came back anymore here at ORD and MDW I would have to find a new spot every day..

Ive personally been stopped at ORD 10+ times and at MDW 5+ times, who cares, I come back again and again and again, not like they can do anything.
 
b757300
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:18 am

You should have asked him "according to WHOM can I no longer take photographs?". More than likely he would have come back with "the federal government" and we all know that is a crock of horse sh*t.
"There is no victory at bargain basement prices."
 
rsmith6621a
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:27 am



Yes I know kinda how you feel. On Thursday of last week I had a experience of my own.

You can read about it here.

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/aviation_photography/read.main/81797/

I have seen a petition here on Anet for spotting at IAH and it is written very good....perhaps though!!!!!.......There should be a broader petition that would ask all airports to give us a greater consideration to us spotters.

I would not have a problem submitting to a background check if that would give me slightly more access and keep the autoritys off my back.

The problem here is that on the law enforcement side of things there is a great opportunity for them to abuse their power simply because they are wanting to exert their legal powers and for the most part many of us dont understand our rights. I was standing and parking on a County Public Road and having 20+years of pro- photo experience I know they cannot ask me to stop as the road does not fall under the Port authority they would have to ask the county to ask me to leave.

I hope that once we have addressing the UBL and Saddam situation maybe the autoritys will relax some more.

Regards
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
JeffM
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 8:35 am

Jonathan,
You did the right thing by leaving when asked. Now, I recomend finding out who owns the property you were on and asking them for permission. If they agree, see if you can get it on paper. If it is public, not airport owned, then I would call the PD and ask what you were in violation of. A police officer can ask you to leave legally even if you are on a public street. You can of course refuse and be arrested, go to court, and be found innocent of any wrong-doing. But refusing to do as a policemen requests can be a crime in itself.

It is always easier to get permission.

Jeff
 
jderden777
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 9:51 am

see that's the thing, technically, it was on the airport property where we were at. it's the parking lot of the control tower, which i'd say is government property and they said it was. it was never really a problem in the past because people from the area used to go up there and picnic on sunday afternoons and stuff like that. there's a little lawn area that makes for great viewing right there....so we really had no grounds to contest with them as far as whose property we were on and that whether or not we had a right to be there....i guess it's just a farewell to that spot...i might try and write a letter to them explaining the situation, and asking if there's anything else that can be done...

all i have to say is i really don't think i'm going to be heading there in the near future, as i'll have "closer" access from the GA ramp  Wink/being sarcastic....it's not the end of the world, it just saddens me that such a great spot is no longer accessible, and i know that it's not an extremely popular airport, but it's still another "casualty" i guess you could say...

anyway, thanks for your replies, just wanted to share all this with you all to see what your thoughts were....

jonathan d.
"my soul is in the sky" - shakespeare
 
2912n
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 10:29 am

Jonathan-

While I agree that you did the right thing by not arguing the point then and there I would call the department (or write...) and speak to a supervisor. There is no sense in what this officer said. Taking photos of airplanes is not against any law in the United States. (I would also love to read any statute that prohibts photography of the TVA dams...)

Officers who use this line are either being given bad information from higher up or are just making things up because you are percieved as a nusiance by someone. If you contact the police department ask for a copy of the specific law that prohibts you from photography. I would love to read it...

I don't advocate butting heads with the police...but if you are in the right, as I beleive you are here, then stand up for the right.

Tony
 
speedbird244
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 12:14 pm

I guess it's happening everywhere, even here in Brazil I was told to stop taking pictures in a city called Salvador, "because I was using professional equipment..," but not because of any law in particular. At least I could reason with the authorities and they thankfully let me, and will continue to let me as long as I ask permission first and as long as the pics are for my own use.
I guess if I had blown my top I would have gotten arrested or something, but since I go there often I figured not to complicate my situation by tainting my name and losing a good spotting location.
regards,
Carlos
 
Dazed767
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:10 pm

Because you were using professional equipment? Has the world gone mad?? Johnathan sorry to hear about it....try spotting there again. If you have been published in anything, bring that with you from now on. If they question you, just tell them what you do and show them your work (MAYBE they'll understand).

Justin
 
Continental
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:28 pm

Homeland Security is becoming a joke, it's horrible...  Yeah sure

co
 
tu154m
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:30 pm

Go to Europe......they are civilised over there and have better facilities. If you have to stay in the US, take some pics, and then e-mail them to the airport authorities. Just keep hitting send. Then take a picture of one of the local police cars, e-mail it with a caption like "just thought you'd like to know that people are breaking the law at the airport". It may not solve anything but it sure feels nice bugging the hell out of someone for something so foolish!
Steve
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
 
rsmith6621a
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 1:47 pm



What really sucks at KSEA is that 2.5 years ago they shut down a really sweet observation area that was located on the westside of the runways to begin clearing and filling land for a 3rd runway project. That was OK because you could shoot from the windows and Observation deck in the terminal then 9/11 came along bye bye to shooting thru the windows at the gates.

A year ago they started to remodel the terminal and there went the Observation deck. Unless you are a employee at the airport or have a press pass you are pretty much limited to shooting at both ends of the runway on the public roads.

There are no plans for any public observation areas for several years.
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
gocaps16
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 2:41 pm

Jonathan, did you get the guys name and his badge number? Next time get that information then you could always call them up. Or just call airport ops and tell them you would like to get permission to take photos from the control tower parking lot, alos get the callers name and ID number just in case one do approach you and since you got clearence it is ok.

This happened to me once. I was spotting at the employee parking lot, I got permission from airport ops and later one, one lunatic cop comes up telling us to leave. I told him I got permission to be here from so and so, and well, he radioed them in and left. It's crazy.

I wouldn't stop taking photos at TRI just because some grumpy airport cop tells you to "don't come back." Why don't you come back and tell him "NOT TO COME BACK."  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

But definatly try and get clearence first.

Kevin
 
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Bruce
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Mon Mar 10, 2003 3:41 pm

Jonathan, what would happen if you asked them for permission ahead of time?

More and more airports are going "off limits" - we the hobbyists have got to do something. Just yet I don't quite know what will suffice. There must be something.


bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
gocaps16
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 11, 2003 5:29 am

I have an idea....why don't us spotters buy a little chunk of land on public property such as a little yard or something and use that for "your own personal enjoyment." You can have your own sign saying "NO TRESSPASSING. VIOLATORS WILL BE SHOT."  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Kevin
 
KLAX
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 11, 2003 6:24 am

Kevin,

"THAT INCLUDES THE POLICE, AND ANOYING LITTLE KIDS" lol  Laugh out loud

-Clovis
 
2912n
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 11, 2003 10:44 am

"THAT INCLUDES THE POLICE, AND ANOYING LITTLE KIDS" lol


Clovis, I realise you are making a joke...but the sentiment of shooting cops is taken seriously by some, myself included. This is not the forum for such talk.

While it is a joke, there are people in the airline and security fields who read some of these posts. They are not likely to be on our side when it comes to photography when they see something like that.

Tony
 
USAFHummer
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 11, 2003 12:36 pm

I think it might be a good idea to speak to someone higher up in either the Police Department or the Airport Authority regarding what happened to you, so you can get physical evidence that your getting kicked out was justified...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
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clickhappy
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 11, 2003 2:08 pm

Greg - The sad, but true, fact is that in the current climate law enforcement can pretty much kick your ass any time they feel the need, all in the name of "security."

If you read the Patriot Act carefully you will see that if you are "suspected" of being a terrorist, acting like a terrorist, knowing a terrorist, or doing something that a terrorist might do, you no longer have such rights as protection from illegal search and seizure, due process, etc etc. They can hold you for as long as they want without charging you with a crime. They don't even have to give you a phone call.

Tread carefully around law enforcement.
 
nonrevman
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 11, 2003 3:25 pm

More and more airports are going "off limits" - we the hobbyists have got to do something. Just yet I don't quite know what will suffice. There must be something.

The worst problem that we are facing is that the hobby of spotting is not well known. Police officers do not know what to make of someone standing near an airport fence with binoculars and/or a camera. So, they tell the person to leave even though there is no legal grounds for doing so. The general public also is somewhat frightened by the appearance of spotters and likely has made the call to law enforcement to report the suspicious person. If more people knew what we were doing out there, this would not be a problem. I am noticing that a lot of the smaller airports are having this problem more than some of the larger ones. Of course, there are large airports such as FLL and IAH that have had a disproportionate amount of paranoia lately. What we somehow need to do is make everyone realize that this is just a hobby and is not the least bit dangerous to national security. Unless we fail to do that soon, spotting areas are going to become very scarce.

Let's face it. If it was waterskiing or beach volleyball that was being threatened with extinction, there would be a huge outcry against it. Unfortunately, we are not as numerous as these types, so it will be much more of an uphill battle to protect our hobby from becoming a victim to a knee jerk reaction to terrorism.
 
CPH-R
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:26 pm

That reminds me..

"NO TRESSPASSING. VIOLATORS WILL BE SHOT.
SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN." Big grin
 
Carlos Borda
Posts: 463
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 11, 2003 4:30 pm

Or...

SHOOT FIRST, ASK QUESTIONS LATER!  Big grin


CPH-R writes:

>>That reminds me..

"NO TRESSPASSING. VIOLATORS WILL BE SHOT.
SURVIVORS WILL BE SHOT AGAIN."<<
 
CheshireCat
Posts: 11
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Fri Mar 14, 2003 8:15 am

Jderden777,

I was going through the same problem at HNL. After I was told to leave by airport security for spotting on the general aviation side's parking lot, (great shots of the reef runway from there) I tooka trip to the airport duty manager. He told me as long as I wasn't taking pics for profit and if I called them an hour before I came, it wasn't a problem to continue shooting over there.

Just talk to the Tri-Cities Regional duty manager, if he gives you the go ahead, security can't touch you.  Smile

-Jordan
 
gocaps16
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2000 9:14 am

RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Sun Mar 16, 2003 2:39 pm

Yea well, some cops are pricks.

If you tell them "Well, I got permission from the duty manager." Im sure most idiotic cops would respond by "I dont care what he/she says, I am the law, and I want you OUT."

I take serious action to idiotic cops since they're not properly doing their jobs right in a professional manner.

Try that and if a cop has a problem, tell him to contact the duty manager. Or better yet, get it on paper.

Kevin
 
gocaps16
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2000 9:14 am

RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:01 am

Jonathan,

I got this email today from the Director of Ops at ORF regarding to aviation photography. Thought you might be interested.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
Subj: Re: aviation photography
Date: 3/17/2003 2:46:27 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: Rbowen@norfolkairport.com
To: Staggerwing777@aol.com
CC: ray.knichel@phhi.net
Sent from the Internet (Details)



Mr. Cook,

We do allow some photography around the airport with prior authorization, given the security restrictions under which we operate. To film from the Departures Terminal or around the perimeter of the airport you must complete a liability release form that is available in our Administration office from 8:30 a.m. to 5:00 p.m. Monday through Friday, excluding holidays. A copy is provided to the Airport Authority Police Department that shows you are authorized to take photographs. Photographers in the Departures Terminal are restricted to the public areas prior to the concourse security checkpoints. Photographers may film around the perimeter of the airport with prior authorization but are not permitted access to the airline or cargo aprons. In order to photograph at the general aviation apron you must also obtain authorization from the operator, Piedmont Hawthorne Aviation. The person to contact at Piedmont Hawthorne Aviation is Ray Knichel at 857-3464. Our authorization does not supercede the right of an aircraft owner, whether corporate or private, to deny permission to have their individual aircraft photographed.
I took a look at your website and your photos are very good.

XXXXXXXXXX
Director of Operations
Norfolk Airport Authority
xxx-xxxx

>>> 03/15/2003 12:06 PM >>>

Hello,

My name is Kevin Cook. I am in the United States Navy and I am also an
amateur aviation photographer. One of my hobbies is to travel to various
airports and photograph aircrafts from various viewpoints or from inside the
terminal. I am currently living in the area and would like to know how strict
is security from photographing aircraft's at ORF especially from the general
aviation area or around the cargo area. Also, will it be possible? Is there a
number to whom I can call to discuss it or an email. I plan on discussing it
with the airport police and obtaining permission to do so. If you are
interested in my work, I will give you a direct link of all my photos from
different airports in the United States.
http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=280

Also, will it be possible to get an escorted, of course ramp tour of the
aircrafts? I am an avid aviation buff and I am also an FAA student/private
pilot.
Kindly again, thank you.

Regards,

Kevin E. Cook
United States Navy
Naval Air Station Oceana Aircraft Intermediate Maintenance Division
 
2912n
Posts: 1978
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2001 2:12 pm

RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:34 am

Problem is that sometimes photographers and spotters are pricks too. Which puts everyone in a bad light.
 
gocaps16
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:09 am

2912n,

You are SOOOO true!

Kevin
 
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Bruce
Posts: 4934
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:30 am

The line "you cant take pictures anymore" may be heard much more often starting tommorrow morning. Terror Alert is high and the war is only hours away.

bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6650
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RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Wed Mar 19, 2003 9:08 am

Kevin,
are you talking about the employee lot at DCA?
Love Trumps Hate
 
gocaps16
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2000 9:14 am

RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Wed Mar 19, 2003 12:03 pm

727LOVER,

No, that email is referring to photography at Norfolk Intl. Airport.

Kevin
 
727LOVER
Posts: 6650
Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2001 12:22 am

RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 9:58 am

Kevin, I'm referring to what you said in Reply 14
Love Trumps Hate
 
gocaps16
Posts: 4138
Joined: Sat Jan 29, 2000 9:14 am

RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Fri Mar 21, 2003 11:43 am

Oh, sorry about that 727LOVER,

Yes, this was at the employee parking lot south end of the field at DCA. This happened on June 15, 2001.

Kevin
 
jderden777
Posts: 1677
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 9:56 am

RE: "You Can't Take Photos Anymore"

Sun Mar 23, 2003 2:27 pm

well i just got back from a pretty successful day at TRI...

it's race weekend here in the tri-cities area (bristol motor speedway is in my town) and lots of stuff flew in for the race tonight....with even more due in tomorrow...

i was able to get out on the GA ramp to take some pics, then when i went to the FBO they let me out even further to take some pictures of all the airplanes that came in for the race...including...beech 1900, hawker 800(?), citation jets galore, westwinds and best of all, i got the roush air 727 in perfect light...

so i didn't even bother with the tower parking lot today, being a student pilot and having photographed at TRI for years now helps out quite a bit  Wink/being sarcastic. even though we can't access one of the best spots for action shots, it is still quite possible to get decent shots at TRI...which is a relief...

you'll see them soon, hopefully!

jonathan d.

P.S. i might try and go back to the tower spot sometime...i'll definitely call up there and see if they mind me over there...i mean i guess the worst they can say is "no," right?
"my soul is in the sky" - shakespeare

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