Brick
Topic Author
Posts: 1486
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 1999 11:08 am

My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:32 am

This photo is the last photo I will display on Airliners.net:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Abbott



I have put over 3100 photos on this website and I now wish I hadn't.

The bullshit level on this website has now become high enough that I will no longer be submitting to Airliners.net. Three years ago when I found this website it was a source of pride for those involved in our hobby. Now it has become a disgrace. I have devoted hundreds and hundreds of hours of my time contributing to this website. No more. I will take my time and interests somewhere else. These are my reasons in no particular order:

1. I am tired of the constant United States bashing in ALL of the forums. We cannot have a photography or civil aviation topic without it degenerating into a How America Sucks discussion.

2. I recently had an 85% rejection rate on a batch of 65 photos I submitted over a week's time. Few people on here have more photos than me. I think I know the quality standard here.

3. I'm tired of the screener inconsistency. Not just a little inconsistency. A LOT.

4. My latest upload took over 3 weeks to be processed. During this time other users were bragging that their everyday, garden variety photos we're accepted and added to the database within 24 hours of submission.

5. The screeners on this site have a real ego problem. I do not believe these screeners use objective judgment in screening photos. Some of the screeners I have met out at the airfields I have genuinely enjoyed meeting and speaking with them. There are too many screeners that if I ever see you I don't want a God damn thing to do with you.

6. The Airliners.net forums have become a major source of misinformation. Most users don't have a damn clue what they are talking about. A lot of industry professionals used to frequent these forums and they were a good source of information. Sadly, they have left long ago. I guess they had a lower tolerance of bullshit than I do.

7. There are too many users who post that are rude and/or extremely immature. Unfortunately, this is what the internet has brought us: A bunch of cowards who hide behind their computer. Airliners.net seems to have put the welcome mat out for these people.

8. There are too many users who play the role of antagonist on here. They have nothing of quality to contribute to the forums. Their only purpose here is to create discord. Topics which are of interest to many become very disinterested because of these people.

9. The site administrator should be worried more about raising the quality of his website rather than adding hotel and airfare bookings, respect rating, and other stuff that doesn't add anything to the overall quality of Airliners.net.

10. There is absolutely no way I will pay Airliners.net for the pleasure of visiting their website without annoyances. With the amount of time I have put in to this website, Airliners.net should be paying me.

11. When I first discovered this website back in 1999, I could name at least 12 of my aviation acquaintances that also frequented Airliners.net. At one time that number was at least 2 dozen. This website was sort of a social gathering place. With me gone now that brings the number down to one. Again, I guess they have a lower tolerance of bullshit than I do.

The purpose of this post is to let some of you that keep up with my work know that I will be submitting photos elsewhere from now on. Between the screeners and the punk ass, immature 14 year olds that seem to dominate this website I have had enough. The quality of this site is such that I cannot tolerate or enjoy any longer.

Mark Abbott
Denver, CO
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
 
brianhames
Posts: 743
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2000 2:22 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:55 am

I agree with you on many, if not all, of those points, Mark. See you later.


Brian
 
Continental
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Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 3:46 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:57 am

I agree, well sorta I guess. I bet this'll get deleted. Mark, sad to see ya go.

co
 
avroarrow
Posts: 804
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2001 10:40 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:00 pm

Sorry to hear about the decision you felt you had to make. It kind of bums me out that a few accomplished photogs and contributors have left in the last while, just as I'm really starting to get into this site. I intend to stick around for a bit and try and contribute quality photos and postings, although I may eventually get tired as well and contribute to the rot and decay by quitting myself. But I think I personally have enough patience to stick it out for a while longer.
Happy spotting.
Ed
Give me a mile of road and I can take you a mile. Give me a mile of runway and I can show you the world.
 
loki394
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:50 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:12 pm

I am all the way with you Mark. I have friends that I converse with nearly everyday about aviation. The screeners do have their favorites as it appears. It is a shame that this wonderful aviation site, has turned into what seems more to be like one of the Enron, MCI WorldCom hush hush under the carpet insider acceptance kind of site. I have seen many pictures accepted that have no business getting accepted, and many pictures far surpassing the quality of those who "sneak through" that have been denied not only in prelim scanning, but in appeals as well. This is the view of an outsider as I have no pictures here on airliners.net. If it appears this way to an outsider, then what does it feel like and look like to a photographer?

It is a shame to hear of your departure, Mark as I have for many years admired your work. Radar service terminated, squawk 1200, frequency change approved, hopefully to happier, bluer skies.

Bryant Blanco
AOPA 03331919
 
Alaskaairlines
Posts: 2326
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 12:28 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:13 pm

Well thats what surprises me the most, photographers who by now should be able to master this site are whinning and moaning.

Myself who has been in this hobby (aviation photography) just over a year has no problems getting pictures accepted, usually.

I have learned from many here, including the screeners who kindly include comments with rejections that take two seconds to fix and get accepted!

I hope this isn't just me, but I truly enjoy this site a lot, uploading and viewing wise.

Mark I wish you the best, and hope you come back.
Even that last photo is off by about a degree or so - comeon man you can handle this!

-Dmitry
 
JayDavis
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:09 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:14 pm

I agree 110% with you Mark on all your points.
I no longer upload to this site as I too have gotten so tired
of the rejection rate I had been receiving lately. I don't have
310 photos on here, but I do think I have around 150 to 200
so I know too, what a good photo is and the screeners are
not consistent.

I've started to load my shots at other sites and I know for
a fact that Josh Rawlin has also quit uploading his stuff here
and as bad as I hate to admit it, Josh is a much better photographer
than I am, so he shouldn't be receiving as many rejections as I do
and he's fed up with it.

Johan REALLY needs to take a serious look at the way this web site is
going or more and more people like you, myself and others will no longer
upload shots to this site.

I've met you personally Mark and you are a great guy and I enjoyed very
much shooting with you at DFW. Your work is very good and high quality
so I can certainly see why you are upset with the rejection level. It isn't
worth my time to upload good, quality shots to have them rejected by
the whims of some inconsistent screener.

I too have a feeling this subject topic will be deleted after a while but if
Airliners.net can't take "constructive criticism", it just shows how weak of
a site this has become...............



Sincerely,


Jay Davis
 
res
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:53 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:24 pm

I'm going to say something, because I have the balls to say it. You nailed it right on the head, Mark. I've got some of the exact same feelings, but do I think a.net is now a bad places? No, not really, but there are a few inconsistencies, like you said.

I really think a.net has turned into a popularity race. The big name phogogs are praised and have their photos added with priority to the "little guys." For example, take "Guy #1" and "Guy #2." #1 is well known, well published, and certainly, well admired. #2 is a guy/that has never had a publishing, and if you said his name on a.net, less than a handful of people may recognize him/her. In a.net's case there are about ten to fifteen "guy #1's" and enough #2's to fill up a train.

Where I'm going with that example is this: Rather than making this a database name-race, and race for "tons of pictures on a.net" lets keep the screening process the same for everyone, and not just upload a picture from Guy#1 because his name is so big.

I see so many pictures that break one or more of the reasons for rejections, and think to myself, "what the F is going on here?" I see photos from the big name photogs with planes so off-centered and oddly-cropped, it just isn't fair to the lesser known guys. Consider me lesser known, I don't care. I'm certainly not a big name. But when I see my OWN pictures rejected that look similar to other shots on a.net, I don't know what to think about the screeners except they're not being fair.

All I feel like saying for now before the verbal bashing occurs.

-Tim Lachenmaier
FLY NAVY
 
fotodj
Posts: 85
Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2002 10:19 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:26 pm

I am still hoping that Johan will have something to say ......
before others start to join Mark Abbott.
Polishman in New York
 
Dazed767
Posts: 4967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:30 pm

Mark, it was a pleasure meeting you in S. Fla this past winter. Sorry to say, I feel the same as you. I shot 8 rolls of film, and so far most has been rejected for stupid reasons, such as "badcommon". All the digital guys got their shots up before me, so it seems mine isn't welcome. I pretty much gave up on uploading for now. Good luck, and talk to you soon.

Justin Cederholm
 
JayDavis
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:09 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:33 pm

I'm just glad that Mark has the balls to say what he said!
Yes, he won't be back and I am sorry to see him go. Will his leaving
make the demise of Airliners.net happen, no. But, just as he has left
and no longer uploading, many others, including myself and others I have
mentioned by name are doing the same thing.

What will be left is about 10 "Guy # 1's" who continue to get their
photos accepted no matter what the quality and a lot of "Guy # 2's" with
a few photos on the database............

Some of my friends are "Guy # 1's" on this site and they are great
photographers, no doubt about it, what I cannot stand is the
inconsistency of the screeners and their "standardized" rejection
notices..........I'll get a rejection and it will say that the scan was
bad or something like that and that maybe I need a better scanner.
What a joke! I've got a top of the line slide scanner!

I doubt Johan will even comment on this entire thread, personally.


Jay
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 12:36 pm

is there really cherry picking among which photos get added? I don't think so. If I remember how the que works it would be pretty hard and time consuming for a screener to pick thru photos and add certain ones but ignore others. I'm not saying it does or doesnt happen but I don't think it does.

If you look at a couple of the posts in this forum lately I think you would see evidence that there is a failry level playing field. Joe Pries, who in my mind is a "top shelf" photographer had (what I thought was) a great cockpit/inflight shot rejected. At the same time new submitters have had stuff added.

And who would compare screening photos of a hobby to something as terrible as Enron or MCI? Give me a fucking break.
 
loki394
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:50 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:30 pm

I was merely speaking of the "suspected" coruption of screening.
 
rsmith6621a
Posts: 1507
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:36 pm



My only gripe is that after 50+ rejections and only one acceptance to the DB has been that it seems like unless the weather is greater than FEW on a METAR your photos haven't got much of a chance of making it to the DB.

I spent the better part of the weekend skimming through a good portion of the DB and honestly ill say that 99% of them were shot in SKC conditions. Living up in SEA especially this time of the year limits your shooting days greatly, I think the local traditional weather should be taken into consideration by the screeners.

I guess I have one more gripe as well......I understand the BAR around these parts are higher than two other similar Photobases there are many of us who are learning and are investing a lot of time and $$$$ with the desire to be recognized here on Anets data base these standardized rejection notices are not much of a help for me as I have made the recommended corrections such as photo needs a little more SHARPEN so I have done that to where it looks good on my monitor and then resubmitted it then get a rejection notice stating now the Image is to dark or is out of focus...yes there is inconsistency's. Why not instead of raising the BAR on the whole community raise the bar on individual bases and let some of these newcombers have chance to get a start and only require that they show growth in knowlege as the continue to submit.

OK Im done
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
loki394
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2000 7:50 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 1:47 pm

RABBLE! RABBLE! RABBLE! RABBLE!  Laugh out loud lol sorry, had to get that out of my system
 
planeboy
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 2:56 am

Don't Quit Mark - Go Digital!

Tue Mar 18, 2003 2:31 pm

Mr Abbott,

I am callin' (Colin) on you to do what the other "Abbott" on this site does

SHOOT DIGITAL !!!!

I have witnessed other photographers remarks in this forum where they have become disenchanted such as you. Then, they start shooting digital - and the quality of their photos goes through the fu_ _ing roof !! (so to speak)

Technology is on the move Mark. Don't give up now...

PS - I shoot with a cheap digital- mostly planes not on Airliners.net - so screeners criteria is not so harsh...
 
tu154m
Posts: 610
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2001 4:52 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 2:51 pm

Glad to see someone else has noticed that there seems to be a little favoritism here!!! I e-mailed a screener about a reject a little more than a year ago and their reply stated they never looked at the photographer.......just the photo. My friend in the UK stated that it was impossible to get something on this site unless you know somebody in "the clique". I have over 10,000 slides at home, alot of prints and a stack of CDs with digital stuff. I will not upload to this site. In the 1990s I used to get stuff in some magazines from time to time, and I have been complemented on my shots. My friend in the UK regurlarlyn shoots with a well known photog who has many books out. It just bums me that I cannot share with everyone some of the 80+ rolls from Kai-Tak and China I have, as well as some of the odd aircraft and one off paint schemes. I'm most likely going to get a Digi SLR sometime soon. Is it to upload here.........NO, it is my personal preference.
Steve
CEOs should swim with cement flippers!
 
rindt
Posts: 876
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 2:53 pm

Randall writes :

"I spent the better part of the weekend skimming through a good portion of the DB and honestly ill say that 99% of them were shot in SKC conditions. Living up in SEA especially this time of the year limits your shooting days greatly, I think the local traditional weather should be taken into consideration by the screeners."

And I live in Vancouver, where it doesn't just rain, it pours 90% of the time this time of year. But, I don't head out to the airport in spite of shit weather. It's when you do other things. I don't expect screeners to go easy on me because the weather is crap in Vancouver. Uh, no... thanks for coming out. That's not how it works...

So, you either go digital or you learn how to properly edit photos. Fair enough? Give up on the #1 Guy and #2 Guy theories please, you're wasting your time.

-Rob

What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
Guest

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:00 pm

Hey Mark, Welcome to the family of former Airliners.net photographers. I came to many of the same conclusions that you did and stopped uploading back in June of last year. It was a hard choice since over the years I have met many great people (including yourself) as a direct result of my photos being posted on this site. For me shooting is a hobby and something I do for fun. Uploading to airliners.net was no longer fun for me. I still love to share my photos with others and that is why I have started uploading to some of the competing sites. You might want to look into doing that as well. That way people can still have the joy of viewing your photos.

Richard Silagi

 
Dazed767
Posts: 4967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:04 pm

Sorry I posted again because I thought my original one was deleted....  Smile

[Edited 2003-03-18 07:09:29]
 
rindt
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu May 25, 2000 3:08 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:16 pm

Ah yes... a reply from the dubious Bryant "Blanco"... it appears you enjoy shooting "blanks" quite a bit... eh? With a respect rating of 0 and all, your opinion really matters... not.


It's a shame to see people go, but what can we do? Digital has taken A.net by storm, for better or for worse - technology keeps pushing forward, and you've got to move WITH it.

-Rob


What other people think of you is none of your business!
 
Dazed767
Posts: 4967
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:55 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:20 pm

Moving with it is one thing (I wish I could right now), but for most of us it's just a hobby. We don't need to be blowing a fortune ($3k+) on new digital SLR's and expensive glass. If this site is headed down that path, expect to lose a lot more people. A.net will have to be renamed the Joe Pries/Peter Unmuth collection  Big grin
 
serge
Posts: 1903
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 2:01 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:26 pm

I've enjoyed your shots Mark. At least you might be uploading elsewhere...

take care,
Serge (one of those "punk ass 14 year olds")  Big grin
 
rsmith6621a
Posts: 1507
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:27 pm



Rob,

I have gone digital to the tune of $1500.00 and I have submitted Images where as the Aircraft is perfectly exposed and sharp from nose to tail and have received rejection notices stating that the photo was rejected because in essence the weather was effecting the quality of the shot.

The way I see it is the weather should be part of the image after all there seems to be a lot of nice snowy images in the DB what makes rain or BRKN to OVC any different.

I guess what get my goat is that I have sent out some of post processed jpg that have been rejected to a digital lab for a print and it always looks sweet in 8x10 and could go larger with no problemo so what seems to be the problem here..........Is this a fair weather only aircraft database...???
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
aa61hvy
Posts: 13021
Joined: Fri Nov 05, 1999 9:21 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:38 pm

I agree with all you guys. I haven't uploaded pictures in here for a long time. I have some real solid shots, but after talking to Josh Rawlin this past weekend, he convinced me to take my shots elsewhere.
Go big or go home
 
Joge
Posts: 1386
Joined: Tue Feb 22, 2000 3:26 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:59 pm

I have some real solid shots, but after talking to Josh Rawlin this past weekend, he convinced me to take my shots elsewhere.

He did that long time ago and I understand him well. I've also started to upload pictures elsewhere as it doesn't matter for me where the pics are displayed as long as they are somewhere.

-Joge
Bula!
 
Shawn Patrick
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:30 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 3:59 pm

Sad to see you go Mark, oh well, c'est la vie.

Planeboy, I see no reason why anyone, especially Mark, needs to "go digital" just to please the screeners here. Mark's scans are very high quality, in fact, I might be fooled into thinking they were digital.

Royal - what's up with the cursing, man? You act like someone made a personal attack on you, why? It seems you're the odd man in this thread, which is probably because one of two reasons.

1) you're just naïve as to what really goes on around here.
2) you're in bed with Johan, so to speak. You do favors for him and he does favors for you. You live near BFI and you can give Johan all the 773ER rollout pics he'll ever want. That's very good for him, it makes his site look better and boosts traffic (more $$$ for Johan). Johan does a favor for you - I'll bet you have every one of your pictures accepted (or maybe you'll be chosen by Johan to be a screener soon). It's that whole favoritism thing... scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. It's total B.S., and it's no way to run a site like this. Maybe you're naïve to that also.

Either way, you seem to think like the rest of the airliners.net "administration", and because of that, I'm sure we'll soon be seeing "CREW" next to your name, and that will just prove my above prediction about you. Ugh.

[Edited 2003-03-18 08:05:15]
 
planeboy
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 2:56 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:39 pm

Shawn,

I believe digital is the way to go in this day and age. My grandfather used to ride on a horse and buggy to market. I never knew my father. Film is a wonderul media - in certain circumstance it will never be out done. I guess I am speaking of viewing photos on electric - cathode ray tubes - computer monitors....  Smile
 
planeboy
Posts: 752
Joined: Sat May 21, 2005 2:56 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:44 pm

wonderul = wonderful - I guess I should go to sleep...
 
boeingholiday
Posts: 445
Joined: Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:59 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:47 pm

Brick, nice topic, sooner or later we must handle the truth
It's sad that nothing changes here, many stay behind their opinion, but that's all. When we have to go at least with technic, where's the human way?
 
res
Posts: 383
Joined: Mon Jul 24, 2000 8:53 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 4:57 pm

Yeah, whatever Shawn...I dont think so. Royal is a good man.
FLY NAVY
 
Guest

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:15 pm

You know, i'm sick to death of this whinging from so called photographers. If you can't get a picture online you have to blame everyone but yourselves. Apparently it's easier for your egos to conceed that the screeners are corrupt rather than conceed that your pictures aren't good enough for the site.

This issue of screener corruption, or "inconsistancy" has been discussed time and time again. From memory, Johan brought in the "screeners" and removed the preferential treatment for the "travel listers" because of the whinging of the uploaders (and hangers on). Since then we've been subjected to whinge after whinge after whinge by the petty armchair screeners who think that they know more about photography than everyone else. After all they're "professionals" they tell us.

Well guys, build a bridge and get the hell over it. So you didn't get your pictures uploaded. So what? There are others out there who can produce better results in the opinion of the screeners given the criteria set by Johan, rather than bleating about it, figure out how to get your pictures online.

Accusing the screeners of corruption is defamation and very clear breaches of the rules of the site, yet you continue to post them (and the moderators continue to refuse to delete them). What are you proving? NOTHING.

All I saw when I read the original post is a guy who doesn't take rejection well who is more willing to blame everyone else but himself for his problems. While i'm sorry to see any single photographer go, I think that there are others who are more willing to admit that they need to improve their skills who will step into their place.

The only issue with that is that there are petty minded individuals out there who take great delight in bagging these people out, or attacking their photographs in what I can only see as petty and ego boosting.

1. I am tired of the constant United States bashing in ALL of the forums. We cannot have a photography or civil aviation topic without it degenerating into a How America Sucks discussion.

If you want everyone to have the exact opinion you do, then go make your own site. Go and look at the moderators, there are many American moderators there, if they dont' remove these "anti-american" threads then the chances are that they are not anti-american. Additionally, there is a plethera of threads about countries that the Americans don't like. It's almost funny about how a few of the Americans are really the only ones bitching about anything anti-country.

2. I recently had an 85% rejection rate on a batch of 65 photos I submitted over a week's time. Few people on here have more photos than me. I think I know the quality standard here.

You complain about alleged "corruption" in the screeners ranks and yet you appear to be inferring you want exactly the same treatment you suggest occurs to others. It shouldn't matter how many pictures you have online or what you think you know about the quality standard, you are screened by the screeners just as everyone else is INCLUDING THE SCREENERS THEMSELVES.

3. I'm tired of the screener inconsistency. Not just a little inconsistency. A LOT.

Your opinion, and one you are entitled to. I dont' see a lot of inconsistancy, whilst there is inconsistency between screeners the individual screeners are very consistant in what they accept/reject.

4. My latest upload took over 3 weeks to be processed. During this time other users were bragging that their everyday, garden variety photos we're accepted and added to the database within 24 hours of submission.

Yes, this is an issue that should be investigated and amended. The queue should really be first in, first processed. That's the fairest way to go.

5. The screeners on this site have a real ego problem.

As, it appears, do some of the uploaders.

I do not believe these screeners use objective judgment in screening photos.

just as you perhaps don't use objective judgement when discussing your recent rejections?

Some of the screeners I have met out at the airfields I have genuinely enjoyed meeting and speaking with them.

so which is it? are they nice or do they have an ego problem? Or are you referring to individual screeners?

There are too many screeners that if I ever see you I don't want a God damn thing to do with you.

I am thinking the feeling is probably mutual now  Laugh out loud

6. The Airliners.net forums have become a major source of misinformation. Most users don't have a damn clue what they are talking about.

And there are plenty out there who do. But then, if you don't like the forums, why hang out there?

A lot of industry professionals used to frequent these forums and they were a good source of information. Sadly, they have left long ago. I guess they had a lower tolerance of bullshit than I do.

I don't disagree with the issues of the decent people leaving the forums, i've seen many of the better photographers refuse to deal with the forums any more and thus, all that expertise is lost. I'm sure it's the same with the other sections of the forums. Like many others, i've tried to raise this as an issue only to be told that it's the "prima donnas" that are the problem .. (yeah right!)

7. There are too many users who post that are rude and/or extremely immature.

What? Like accusing screeners of preferential treatment and severe inconsistancy? Like calling people imature and so forth? Fact is that there are rude and immature people on the net, just as there are in real life. The thing is that if a person is mature they can get past that. The kids of today will be supporting you in your dotage after all  Laugh out loud.

Unfortunately, this is what the internet has brought us: A bunch of cowards who hide behind their computer. Airliners.net seems to have put the welcome mat out for these people.

Airliners.net is no different from any other site in this way. It has a history of banning users who consistantly breach the rules so I would have to disagree with your comments here.

8. There are too many users who play the role of antagonist on here. They have nothing of quality to contribute to the forums. Their only purpose here is to create discord. Topics which are of interest to many become very disinterested because of these people.

That's a matter of opinion. Whilst this is true at times, there are a multitude of times when the attitude you exhibit is nothing more than an anger that people don't agree with the person making the accusation. Again, one of the skills of a mature person is being able to weed through the crap to find the good stuff.

10. There is absolutely no way I will pay Airliners.net for the pleasure of visiting their website without annoyances. With the amount of time I have put in to this website, Airliners.net should be paying me.

Why should he pay you for giving you a place on the net to park your images? I do feel however, that you should have access to FC membership without payment for the effort you have put into putting your pictures online.

Between the screeners and the punk ass, immature 14 year olds that seem to dominate this website I have had enough. The quality of this site is such that I cannot tolerate or enjoy any longer.

You blame the screeners and yet the majority of your whine is about the forums, the screeners don't moderate the forums.






ADG
** reference: the term "you" refers to those here who are "like minded", not necessarily the individual who posted the original post **
 
User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 4934
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:21 pm

Wow...Mark, that's a loaded post! I've been a fan of a lot of your shots and think you do good work.

I joined a.net about 3 months or so before you so I've seen it all too. Let's just say, I agree in principle with many of your points.

It's sad to see more of the "old timers" (people who have been here a long time) leave.


Bruce


Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
Unique
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 5:48 pm

Why doesn't somebody split a.net into a digital upload base and a slide scanned upload base? There you can compete with each other on a fair basis! I've started with slides in 1981 and I'll NEVER go digital. If my shots are not uploaded, so what the heck.
Rob, I remember you liking my slides extremely, so do you really want me to switch to digital?
To me, a forum is to discuss matters. The language, however, should be on a high and grown up level.
It's a hobby after all, maybe the hobby is crippled in a day or two, but not for long.
Cheers
 
timdegroot
Posts: 3258
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:00 pm

Wow this thread has turned ugly Big grin

I don't beleive screeners have any personal preferences, we see even the big names like Joe Pries get pictures rejected. And the #1 #2 theory, of course that's true, just like in the real world. Everybody (in Europe) has heard of Ajax, but how many have heard of De Graafschap, they both play soccer don't they?? Big grin

And Rob, you must be kidding about the digital......
I'd rather have my slides in 10 years than some pictures on a website. Meanwhile I have no problem in getting my scans on here....what I don't do is upload everything without being critical, just like with my slide collection.

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
wietse
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:28 pm

Well.. If there are 2 sides in this war, I'm with the site! I cant see any inconsistency amongst the screeners, and I think the site is becoming more and more interesting. I am meeting ever new people and I am enjoying this hobby more and more...

Does this make me naive? I don't think so. It only shows I see things on the bright side, perhaps something a lot of users should do.

So could I be expected to see a "crew" logo next to my name soon? I would be honored!

- Wietse de Graaf
Wietse de Graaf
 
jettrader
Posts: 580
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:35 pm


To all who dismiss Marks comments,

No names, no pointing at sample images, but if you really think that the screening process here is totally without bias or favour then you really are deluding yourself.

The playing field is far from level and it is apparent to many people. Those who benefit are never going to raise the kind of issues cited here.

The level of discontent is rising and the powers that be would do well to listen to those prepared to air their grievances because this site is nothing without it's contributing photographers.

I can live with "inconsistencies", "bias" and "favouritism" and I will continue to upload shots here and "play" by the rules. Dismissing those who choose to air their grievances as somehow "childish" or refering to them as "whingers" does nothing to enhance the standing of this site.

Surely an inclusive policy is better than a devisive one, no matter how deliberately or otherwise that devisive policy is implemented...and until the playing field is seen to be level (in simple quality and esthetic terms) then the screening process will continue to provoke this kind of reaction from highly respected, long time contributing photographers.

Regards,
Dean
Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!
 
Joge
Posts: 1386
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:48 pm

Why doesn't somebody split a.net into a digital upload base and a slide scanned upload base?

That would be great! However, that can be decided only by the master (Johan) itself. I afraid that wouldn't be too simple anyway, that would be more like two different sites since it would cause problems to the database and so on. Why not naming those slideliners.net and digiliners.net?  Big grin

Ok, this thread is going to be locked soon too, I guess...

-Joge

Bula!
 
Alaskaairlines
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:54 pm

And from my point of view - digital doesn't mean a.net will accept all the photos you shoot, perhaps none! Its the photog what matters.

Lots of new guys go buy a D100 and think they are going to be in the top round from day one just because they have a nice DSLR - WRONG! That won't happen untill you know exactly what your doing imo.
-Dmitry
 
ckw
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 6:58 pm

Like most of my fellow screeners, I prefer not to get involved in screener bashing debates but I will not tolerate accusations of corruption and playing favorites. I would just like to put a few things straight:

1 - Firstly I know very few of you. I prefer to shoot alone. Exactly what would playing favourites acheive? Why would I bother?

2 - All YOU see is what gets accepted and your own rejections, apart from those who publicly post their rejections, you have no idea who has their pictures rejected and why. I can assure you in the last week I have rejected shots from a number of the big names

3 - Too many of you "old hands" get sloppy ... you do not maintain your own standards, you have forgotten that attention to detail that you had to have when you got your first shots accepted.

It is very obvious that many of the frequent uploaders produce their scans in batch mode - check the first one, then run the rest through with the same settings. Each shot requires individual attention to make it.

Last night I went through a batch of shots from one of the "old hands" (who has joined this discussion). Most of the shots were fine ... but 2 or 3 stood out a mile as poorly scanned and/or soft. "Length of service", "friends and family" and "respect" have nothing to do with it. Any photographer is only as good as their last shot.

4 - Variations in standards - yes, it happens. We are only people and make mistakes. Where possible, they are corrected. But rarity is a factor in acceptance. Johan is interested in building as comprehensive a database as possible, so a shot of a since scrapped Russian airliner is going to be less critically examined than the umpteenth SW 737. Live with it.

5 - Weather. Yes, weather can be a very positive factor in a shot ... but few of you know how to do it - you shoot in cloud and rain as if it were a sunny day and then cry when the shots are rejected. Learn to use weather to your advantage - take a look at Pixair's shots - though God forbid you should have to change your approach and thinking from the same old thing you've been doing the for last 3 years.

6 - Forums. So what. Don't use them - never really understood the obsession with them myself. I always thought this was a photography site.

7 - The personal touch - I would love to craft a helpful reply to each rejection. Sorry I can't. In the space of time it took me to screen 120 pics last night, 300 new ones were uploaded. Perhaps if people were more selective in their uploads, and refrained from reuploading the same substandard material in the hope of sneaking one past the screeners, we would have time for more personal comments. And no, you won't always get a reply if you email the screeners about a rejection. There is an appeals process. Use it.

8 - I am certain that some of the moaners on this list were invited last year to become screeners. I have much better things I could be doing with my time, but since I have also been critical of A.net, I thought "well, it's put up or shut up time". So while I know there are problems with A.net, at least I'm actively trying to make it work. Incidentally, my rejection rate has, if anything, INCREASED since I became a screener.

9 - Finally, well perhaps some of you should move on. I won't name names, and they aren't necessarily in this discussion, but some people are getting seriously stale. Aviation photography for them has become a routine mechanical process - the magic is gone, its just a habit. And believe me it shows in the shots. Go and shoot something else for a while, build something, but please stop using Anet to get your fix.

This will be my only posting on this thread - I'm not getting tied up in arguements - but I had a few things I thought I ought to get off my chest before screening any more of your pics  Smile

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
sunilgupta
Posts: 768
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:05 pm

Mark, I can feel your pain… but maybe you can reconsider and upload only selected photos. Also, don’t let the stupidity of the forums influence you… just ignore the forums if you don’t like them. It’s a shame to see you go partly because of the forums.

Then, they start shooting digital - and the quality of their photos goes through the fu_ _ing roof !! (so to speak)

huh? If the quality of their photos went up when they switched to digital it only means that they did not know how to scan and edit.

As far as getting photos rejected… Life would be MUCH easier for photographers and screeners if photographers would upload only their really special shots… either special subjects or really good photographs (from a photography point of view). I can’t imagine how tedious the screening process must be when the screeners have to wade through 5000 photos of same aircraft at the same airport day after day. There is just too much ‘spam’ being uploaded.

Regarding splitting up of airliners.net… I like the idea, but it should be more like:

privateplanes.net
puddlejumpers.net
commercialairliners.net
warbirds.net
planewrecks.net
etc, etc

Civil and Military fields are just not enough to get through all the photos.

Sunil
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:16 pm

BINGO Mark,

Despite justifications I generally don't buy, I agree with you 100%. I have stopped uploading to this site and some of my photos are amongst the best performers here.
It's a shame it has come down to this, but airliners.net has become too big for it's own good. I know that there must be standards....no-one has unlimited disc space, but standards seems to be a real problem. The sorry we are human things just doesn't cut it. Sorry our airline crashes once a week...we're only human. Hmmm.
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:23 pm

Well, having just come back from a holiday to this, all I can say to those who make accusations about biased screening and a lack of level playing field is that I take that as a personal insult to my integrity, and its an insult to the integrity of the other screeners too. I know those who moan won't care about that, but I do, and so too do the rest of the screeners although they may not admit it in public.

I find it ironic that the instigator of this topic said "There are too many users who post that are rude and/or extremely immature. Unfortunately, this is what the internet has brought us: A bunch of cowards who hide behind their computer" and yet that person, instead of looking for a solution to his specific issues, has hidden behind his computer and has done precisely the same thing himself in attacking the screeners when he said "The screeners on this site have a real ego problem. I do not believe these screeners use objective judgment in screening photos. There are too many screeners that if I ever see you I don't want a God damn thing to do with you"

Standards change here, as they do on the other sites too. No individual photographer is larger than airliners.net itself, whether that photographer is a screener or a long standing photographer with thousands of pictures on the database. That is why airliners.net cannot change just because one or two photographers suddenly find what worked before suddenly doesn't work now. To any of the moaners here - if you want to take cheap shots at the team rather than try to raise your game and even better contribute positively to the process, then I don't think you really have a right to expect screeners to willingly give up their free time to screen your pictures - so go, FOXTROT OSCAR.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
Guest

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:27 pm

No names, no pointing at sample images, but if you really think that the screening process here is totally without bias or favour then you really are deluding yourself.

That's quite an accusation, perhaps you ought to direct an eMail to the screeners with NAMES and SAMPLE IMAGES to allow them to respond to your defamatory statement?

I see no bias, they all reject my photos  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

The playing field is far from level and it is apparent to many people. Those who benefit are never going to raise the kind of issues cited here.

Again, I don't see how you can say that. In what way is it not level? Are some people sending the screeners money? Or sleeping with them? what?

The level of discontent is rising and the powers that be would do well to listen to those prepared to air their grievances because this site is nothing without it's contributing photographers.

Actually, the photo forum has always had it's whingers. If it's not the length of the queue it's why #1's pics are online when #2's are so much better.

I can live with "inconsistencies", "bias" and "favouritism" and I will continue to upload shots here and "play" by the rules. Dismissing those who choose to air their grievances as somehow "childish" or refering to them as "whingers" does nothing to enhance the standing of this site.

If you look in the archives you will see that Johan has addressed this issue on a number of occasions, you really can't hold him responsible for the fact that you don't believe him.

Surely an inclusive policy is better than a devisive one, no matter how deliberately or otherwise that devisive policy is implemented...and until the playing field is seen to be level (in simple quality and esthetic terms) then the screening process will continue to provoke this kind of reaction from highly respected, long time contributing photographers.

What should be done? The posts above appear to be saying that this site shouldn't strive to put the "best of the best" online, but it should cater for the preferences and equipment of individuals. If #1 only has a $2 camera then the screeners should be less critical than if he had a $6400 camera? Wouldn't that just lead to the "bias" and "favouratism" you are complaining about? Where does it end? Does Johan upload the cr.p my 9 year old takes because he's only a kid with a $50 digital camera?





ADG
 
jettrader
Posts: 580
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 8:50 pm

ADG,

We'll have to agree to differ on most points.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

I'm with you 100% though on the matter of uploading poor quality stuff - a crap shot is a crap shot is a crap shot.

I do kind of think you missed my point though...

Cheers,
Dean

Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:03 pm

Just to widen the scope a little, some time ago I uploaded a bunch of pictures of fairly rare subjects to another photo site. Most of them were rejected. I was surprised, because those that were rejected I uploaded here instead and they were all accepted. When I queried the rejections in that other site's forums, the original screener told me that he thought that they were too dark, whilst another screener at that same site told me that he'd have accepted the pictures had they screened them.

Moral of story - all photo sites have some variations in their screening standards depending on who screens the pictures. Its human nature, and will happen until machines do the screening. Anyone who walks away from airliners.net in the belief that there are biases here that do not exist at any of the other sites is simply being naive in the extreme.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:01 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 9:04 pm

I will agree that to get a photo accepted now, it has to be REALLY good, quality so high that not even slide shooters can get regular acceptance anymore... You know why? I think its because the majority of people now have DSLR's, and the quality of these cameras has become the norm for A.net. I say the same myself, when I look at my images they don't look good enough for A.net, because so many now are of Digital SLR standard and that HAS become the standard...

Then again, all this 'anti-american sentiment' and 'screener corruption' is bullshit.

Good day!

Dan  Smile
 
joe pries
Posts: 1922
Joined: Sat May 13, 2000 1:04 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 10:54 pm

A.net will have to be renamed the Joe Pries/Peter Unmuth collection
====================

Justin,
You know i'm a straight shooter- dude, im getting mad rejects- go put in my email address and check my upload status- i think its now like 3 "difficult border cases left for Johan" and about 7 appeals currently. I also only have 1800 photos here, others have 3000 to 9000, so i'm going through major pain myself and sometimes have really nice shots rejected and also rejected on appeal- it aint easy, its frustrating at times, but aint no one running me out of town, i fight to the death  Big grin -I can certainly understand peoples frustrations though- believe me.

Joe
 
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clickhappy
Posts: 9042
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RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:29 pm

The reason I swore is because it is lame to complain a hobby website to the kind of fraud that went on @ Enron and MCI. I lost a large 5-figure sum of money with MCI, a company who lied and cheated thousands of people out of billions of dollars.

As for me "being in bed with" Johan, doubtful. If anyone who has been here longer than six months thinks back, you will remember a post I made called "The screening process is flawed" All the screeners bascially told me to go find another website.

Sure, I give Johan some traffic. But he gives me, or rather his website gives me, visibility. I have sold $2,300 worth of pictures since last summer. I have also been published in several magazines. If it wasn't for the high quality standards here none of that would have happened.

I do get rejections. We all do. The other day I had a kick ass sunset shot of the Air Canada Star Alliance A340 rejected, for something stupid like "Bad Category" I was pissed, but no matter, I appealed, and there it sits.

My advice to anyone who is in this game would be to only upload the best shots you have. It's a quality game, not a quantity game. I used to upload every United A320, every Southwest 737, now I upload the pictures which I enjoyed taking, even though I still snap everything.

Anyways, no hard feelings. It is good for us as individuals to share our points of view.

See you at the airport.

Royal
 
Shawn Patrick
Posts: 2465
Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2000 7:30 am

RE: My 3101st Photo On Here Is My Last

Tue Mar 18, 2003 11:31 pm

Rob said
Grow-up eh?

We're on the brink of a war that's crippling our hobby, but we have time to complain. Good to know the vocal minority is still out there.


What, do you expect the vocal minority to not vocalize? I guess we should make that part of the airliners.net mission statement, because I hear stuff like that all the time around here. As someone said, "hush hush, sweep it under the carpet." Sounds like bad policy to me. Good thing you guys will never hold government office...

As far as "on the brink of a war that's crippling our hobby", whose hobby is it? Certainly, you don't consider 50mm sideshots @ YVR a hobby, do you?  Wink/being sarcastic

Funny.


[Edited 2003-03-18 15:34:15]

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