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Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:01 pm

I just had some of my photos looked at by whatever screener was looking at them, and for the life of me, I am dumbfounded. A couple of them I agreed with that were a little soft. But one of the images, an air to air shot of a Hawker Hurricane here in Kiwiland, was pin sharp and even sharper than the one that they already accepted??

Now I want to know what the qualifications are for the screeners as some of the ones they have rejected have been pin sharp and yet they send their Dear John letters.

I have been shooting air to air for ten years now and that includes helicopters, warbirds and military fast jets. I also do a lot of scanning of the images for both of my aviation magazines, so I think I have a fair idea of what is a good quality scan or not. Some of their decisions I have agreed with when looking at the images but a lot of them I have to take issue with.

Now just because a screener likes airliners, does that mean he is going to bin any warbird or helicopter image because he doesnt like the subjects??

I am happy to email the Hurricane image in question to anyone that wants to make up their own mind.

Neville Dawson
Publisher & Chief Photographer
Heli Ops Int & Check Six Magazines
 
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Bruce
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:20 pm

You could post the link here but I'd suggest to Appeal it to Johan. some rejections are easy to fix up and re submit while others might need Johan to look at it.


bruce
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:25 pm

Bruce

Not going to bother. I just want to know what quals the screeners have to have. Are they photographers, editors, what??

I just find it amazing that they reject an image that is 100% pin sharp and well composed and yet they let in some images that there is no way I would even think about approving.

Heli Ops
 
chrisair
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:33 pm

Well Neville, I can assure you that all the screeners are photogs. Myself, I have been shooting aviation for 10 years so I do have experience in the aviation photography field, not to mention news and sports photography experience.

Out of curiosity, did you shoot the Hurricane image with a Hasselblad or other MF camera, or did you shoot it with a large format camera?

Regards,

Chris
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 4:38 pm

Neville

View the 'About Us' on the front page, find out who the screeners are and search the site for their images.

That will part answer your question.

You are not going to bother linking your rejected pic?.......Doing this will let other see what the screeners 'may' have done wrong.

Regards

Gary Watt
Airliners.net Screener and Photographer

[Edited 2003-06-12 09:39:49]
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 5:12 pm

Chris,

I shoot all my images with a Canon EOS1V and on Velvia or Provia. I also use a Ken Lab Gyro Stab on all helicopter air to air shoots and all others up to a 150 lens otherwise it focuses on the canopy and not the other aircraft.

I dont have a website to upload the images to in order to link them, so am unable to link to them. I am happy to email you the image for you to link to or look at. I also just got a whole bunch bounded back since my last message of ag aircraft working in outback Australia, saying they were low quality and yet they were just as sharp at the Hurricane ones. I give up. There is no point in wasting my time uploading these images when they dump them for no legitimate reason. Heck maybe they dont like ag planes??

Anyway these will be my last uploads as its not worth the efforts to be honest. Wish you guys well.

Neville
Publisher - Heli Ops & Check Six
 
Granite
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 5:49 pm

Neville

Wishing you well too.

Regards

Gary Watt
 
KingWide
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 6:10 pm

Neville,

I've had a look through the queue and I think these are the Hurrican shots you're referring to?


http://www.airliners.net/procphotos/rejphoto.main?filename=hurri2.jpg

http://www.airliners.net/procphotos/rejphoto.main?filename=hurri1.jpg


I'm sure the guys on the forum will be able to provide advice about how to get them up to a.net standards and, from what I have seen of the other rejected shots of yours, they would be nice additions to the site.

J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 6:51 pm

It was Hurri4 that was the one I took issue with. Have a look at it, its pin sharp.

Neville
 
vir380
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 6:52 pm

I really like both the images.... however ( with a rejection theres is always a however )  Sad , the first pic is cropped incorrectly in my opinion , i would have centralized the image more perhaps and less space around it .. also could do with a touch more sharpening .... Sharper image smaller crop ... id accept it  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

The second pic... I just love this shot , although like the first image it could do with some sharpening ... i would accept it also with the adjustments.

Maybe resize them to say 1400 rather than the 1530 you have them at now youd be surprised at the difference in viewing


I would advise you not to give up ... please re-upload them , i for for one would love to see these and more of your work on here .

regards Tony

Moved away from this lost website to better things !
 
cfalk
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:19 pm

Neville,

We have all paid our dues, and have had more than a few rejections ourselves to qualify for screeners - occasionally, our own shots still get rejected - it keeps us on our toes.

I took a look at your http://www.airliners.net/procphotos/rejphoto.main?filename=hurri4.jpg shot. It's really just on the borderline, IMHO. It just needs a little more sharpness. The other two that were posted are a little bit worse, but if you shot on Provia or Velvia, and have a decent scanner, they should be fixable, no problem.

Cool shot, otherwise.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
KingWide
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:40 pm

I've taken the liberty of altering your hurri4 shot to show the sharpness that I think is expected from an a.net shot. Perhaps the screeners can comment?




J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:45 pm

Hi all

After looking at both images of Huri4, Jason's rendition has added some 'oomph' to the picture.

A slight tweak of sharpness is all that is required and we would be happy to have it on the DB.

Regards

Gary Watt
 
manzoori
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:53 pm

Neville,

First off, great shots mate! I wish I had your job!  Big thumbs up

Whilst I can totally sympathise with your dismay at seeing your shots rejected, don't you think you're over-reacting just a tad?

To be honest I'm astonished at the politeness and the reserve displayed in the responses so far... most people would have had a half dozen angry responses by now! Big grin

Might I respectfully suggest an alternative approach from someone of your experience might be more appropriate, namely to post a link to the rejected photo and ask for advice what it would take to get the image to the standards required at this site. They're high, but not impossible! Hell, even I've managed to get 53 images on here!  Big thumbs up

All the best mate and I hope you don't decide to abandon A.Net after the first knockback.

Cheers!

Rez

PS. Great job Jason! I think that's really brought out the picture!

Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:59 pm

Jasons version looks much better now. Unfortunately i cant post the one i have done because of no FTP-access from work :-(
Peter
-
 
ckw
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 8:00 pm

As I've often remarked in the past, rejections here are often not a reflection of photographic skills, but simply an insufficient awareness of the post-processing requirements needed to make A.net.

Neville claims Hurri4 to be "pin sharp" - I have no reason to doubt this is the case with the original, but what we can see on the screen is clearly otherwise.

What I would query is whether this image was prepared specifically for A.net, or is it simply a resize of an image which had been prepared, perhaps, for print? This just won't cut it - a different sharpening model is required. Alternatively, it is possible Neville is using a flat screen - many of these introduce "artificial sharpening", brilliant for text, useless for serious photo work.

Many, many experienced/pro photographers have fallen foul of the fact that preparing material for the web is different. It requires specific knowledge and a certain level of skill with graphics packages. It isn't rocket science by any means, but anyone uploading here will have to accept it as part and parcel of the process, just as more traditional photographers might need to learn darkroom skills. Having had experinece of both chemical and digital processing I would suggest they require similar levels of effort and learning to get quality results - the digital route is just a little less messy, and you get to work with the lights on  Smile

Cheers,

Colin

BTW - love the shot!


Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
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Scooter
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 8:04 pm

I also do a lot of scanning of the images for both of my aviation magazines, so I think I have a fair idea of what is a good quality scan or not.

That's part of your problem. Scanning for digital viewing is a completely different ballgame.

As Charles wrote above, we've all paid our dues. Take the time to learn the standards of this site - don't give up yet! You've got some nice shots there...
My name is Scott, and I am addicted to writing trip reports.
 
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Scooter
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 8:07 pm

er...looks like Colin and I posted at about the same time. Only he said much better what I was trying to get at!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
My name is Scott, and I am addicted to writing trip reports.
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 9:15 pm

Thanks to Jason for providing the webspace here is my version:

Peter
-
 
ckw
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:48 pm

Sorry Peter, I think Jason's is better - I think you've gone a bit too far ... I can see jaggies on the leading edge. But of course both these were produced from jpgs - quality should be much higher if the same technique were applied to the original file - and they do show how much scope there is for improvement.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
Granite
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Thu Jun 12, 2003 10:50 pm

Hi all

Peters interpretation makes the picture look like a composite ....but let's not get into that stuff again  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Cheers

Gary
 
EGGD
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:21 am

Here's my go at it lol:

 
joe pries
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 12:43 am

is the fact that the ground and the airplane having two different looks the product of post processing you guys are doing? it looks as if the airplane is a real shot and the ground is a painting. interesting.

Joe A.T. TEAM
 
EGGD
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:23 am

I think its down to the film and the haze on the day, really...
 
manzoori
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 1:29 am

No offence to Peter and Dan but I prefer the colours in Jason's image myself.

Just my £0.03 worth (adjusted for inflation)

Rez
 Big thumbs up
Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 3:58 am

Kingwide - Could you please advise what you did to make this much sharper. Your advice would be appreciated.

Neville
 
jwenting
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:01 am

I must say I prefer Dan's, it's more lifelike.
Jason and Peter made it oversaturated, causing the aircraft to look like plastic (and this ain't no Airbus, it's all fabric steel and wood).
I wish I were flying
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:45 am

interesting - all I did was resize and add USM. No colour modifications at all.


J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 4:54 am

Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Uranus Big grin
 
wietse
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:13 am

hahaha royal... perfect!

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 5:35 am

Guys

What size and dpi do you scan your images in at. I am using a Nikon Coolscan 4000ED.

Neville
 
ckw
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:18 am

Basic steps I use with the same scanner -

(I use Vuescan in preference to Nikonscan, but there's not much in it)

1 - Scan at max resolution, 16 bit colour - just basic exposure adjustment, colour balance etc.

2 - In Photoshop, fine tune colour, levels etc.

3 - Crop and resize to A.net size (1024px wide is my preference)

4 - USM sharpen - exact details depend on image, graininess etc., but as a guide settings of around Amount: between 100 & 200; Radius: 0.5; Threshold 0.

Actually, for best results, I use a more complex technique involving edge enhancement and masking - I've made a PS action for this, which you can have if you want:


http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ckw/ckwsharpen.atn
and

http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ckw/ckwsharpen.txt


Digital users - please note I do NOT use this action for my digi images - these I find do not need such complex masking and a setting of Amount 250-350; radius 0.3; threshold 0 works well. I sometimes run a 2nd pass at Amount 100; radius 0.2; threshold 0 with the sky masked to bring out fine detail.

Cheers,

Colin





[Edited 2003-06-12 23:46:20]
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
KingWide
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 6:30 am

Neville,

Colin has described pretty much what I'm doing. For your image I used USM with radius 0.3 threshold 1 and amount was about 150% but you should play around with some settings and see what comes out looking good.

a.net images have to have that 'razor-sharp' feel [for better or worse]. Once you've got that sharpening down then you should have no problem with getting the shots in the DB.


J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
EGGD
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 9:57 am

With that image I found that jaggies started appearing around 90% USM so I left it at 85%.

I also fiddled with the colours a bit because there was a little bit of a blue cast...
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 2:51 pm

To the Screeners

I tried the suggestions from above. Could you have a look at an upload I just did called Spitform and see if it has made any difference. Many thanks

Neville
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:21 pm

Colin,

Is 'ckwsharpen' compatible with Photoshop 8? I can't get it to work on the latest version.

Thanks,

Jon
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:45 pm

I am still at a loss as the image I submitted recently was again rejected saying it wasnt sharp and yet it is just as sharp as the ones above???

The instructions above were followed to a T and it seems that whenever you reach the bar, they raise it even higher. It is even sharper than the Hurricane one already accepted so what gives.

Neville
 
KingWide
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:45 pm

See what you've done now Colin? You're going to have to support it on every version of Photoshop!  Smile

Has anybody tried the Macintosh version with Colin's action?

Bug reports to colin@WhyDidntIJustKeepQuietAboutIt.com Big grin

J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
cfalk
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:54 pm

Neville,

I checked out Spitform.jpg, and I had to reject it for softness. I'm just curious what screen you are using, because that is a frequent cause of issue, especially with a TFT screen.

http://www.airliners.net/procphotos/rejphoto.main?filename=Spitform.jpg

A few more points about the shot:

Just to see, I copied it onto Photopaint and did one pass of Adaptive Unsharp, and the results were terrific.

Also, you listed the airline as Jeff Greenwood. I suppose he's the owner, but his name in this case should appear in the remarks. The Airline should simply be marked as "Private".

Thirdly, you left out the registration. I would use the PT462 number for that.

Otherwise, it's a beautiful shot - great color. I wish I could get those opportunities.

I know the standards are high, but I think shots such as these deserve to look their very best, don't you? With the film and scanner you are using (the same as mine, BTW) you should not have any problems getting there.

Cheers,

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
ckw
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 7:55 pm

Sigh  Sad

That action was written for PS6 on PC ... I've not tried it on anything else, nor do I intend to until I feel a compelling need to upgrade. Anyway, with PS actions, you can see what they're trying to do, so if anyone feels like reverse engineering it to work on anything else, be my guest  Smile

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
EGGD
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Fri Jun 13, 2003 8:55 pm

Colin - I'm pretty sure it works on PS7, but don't quote me on that  Big grin
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Sat Jun 14, 2003 5:59 am

Charles,

That images is miles sharper than a lot of others on this database and yet it gets rejected. I my opinion whoever is setting these standards is on some sort of power trip. There is a need for an image to be sharp but this is going over the top.

I have had numerous emails from people saying how crazy it is. Still its your sandpit and you make the rules. I just had a whole bunch more rejected and these were even sharper than the Spit one so go figure. Anyway wont bother uploading anymore so you might as well delete what I have in the queue.

Neville
 
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Sat Jun 14, 2003 6:19 am

Charles wrote:

Also, you listed the airline as Jeff Greenwood. I suppose he's the owner, but his name in this case should appear in the remarks. The Airline should simply be marked as "Private".
______________________________________________________

Charles, maybe you, (or someone else) can clear something up for me. I thought I had a good idea of the A.net nomenclature at this point, but I keep stumbling over the "Untitled" vs. "Private" part. Specifically, as below:

5. Untitled aircraft not operated by an airline or charter company, but owned by private persons, business companies, flying clubs, aircraft sale companies, broker companies, etc. will be listed as "Untitled". If you want to supply owner or operator details these shall be listed in the Remarks field.

I thought I had this figured out at one point, but now I am confused again.
So, my question is, when do we use "Private" as opposed to "Untitled"?

Thanks,
Tom
 
An-225
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Sat Jun 14, 2003 6:23 am

Neville - You do have fantastic images. They will be accepted on here after some minor post-processing. It's your decision not to upload, but I personally enjoyed looking at your images. And another thing - there's no need to get angry, it's much more productive to take a look at your own pictures, make necessary changes, and come out a better photographer because of it.

And to answer your original question - the screeners are all here on Earth.  Smile

Good luck,

Alex.
Denver, Colorado.

[Edited 2003-06-13 23:34:56]
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
lennymuir
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:27 am

Alex:

take a look at your own pictures, make necessary changes, and come out a better photographer because of it.

Better photographer?  Confused

Gerry
 
cfalk
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:35 pm

Neville,

My basic rule for such borderline situations is "Can I easily improve the image within less than 5 seconds?" I will frequently test this by copying the picture over to Corel PhotoPaint and see if I can improve it fast and easy. If I can in just a few seconds, then I think it is reasonable to expect the photographer to put in that time.

In this case, the answer is yes. All it needs is a little more sharpness. And remember that two different photos, taken from the same camera same film, same time, will frequently require different levels of touching up.

You haven't responded about what kind of screen you are using. Like I said before, if you are using a TFT flatscreen, I can easily understand why you are getting frustrated.

Charles
The only thing you should feel when shooting a terrorist: Recoil.
 
An-225
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Sat Jun 14, 2003 1:54 pm

Lennymuir - yes, I meant better photographer. The more you know, the better you are, right?

Alex.  Smile
Money does not bring you happiness. But it's better to cry in your own private limo than on a cold bus stop.
 
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Kereru
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RE: Screeners - What Planet Are They On

Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:28 pm

Plese Neville persevere we all go through this stage. From what I've seen so far they are excellent subjects and I'd love to see them on A.net. I was frustrated to begin with when I first started but I eventually found the right formula.

Colin
Good things take Time.

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