manzoori
Posts: 1459
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 7:08 am

Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Thu Jun 19, 2003 6:54 am

For starters, here's the original thread

Well, finally the folks at BA have been in touch (via BT1571). Turns out they say they sent an e-mail requesting permission to use the picture through the site's link but I did not get it. Time to have some angry words with NTL I think!  Angry  Angry  Angry  Angry

Despite putting the ball firmly in their court, they have rather limp-wristedly thrown it back at me. They have agreed to pay me compensation but have asked me to name a price - and then reminded me that that the cost of image use is usually dependant on final image size! LOL! And the print circulation I should imagine!

So, my plea for help goes a little something like this.... How much should I ask for???? I've researched a bit and from BA's own website "The group employs more than 50,000 people in around 100 countries worldwide." Assuming only half of them get BA news that's still 25000 copies of my image floating around. On the flipside, the image printed was a very small one.

Any suggestions gratefully received!

Cheers!

Rez
 Big thumbs up

Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
 
photopilot
Posts: 3087
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16 am

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Thu Jun 19, 2003 10:03 am

Hi Rez:

Check out Photovault's pricing guidelines. You can also send the link to BA so they can see that you are not giving them any BS.

Don't forget to add a "surcharge" for using the photo without permission. Say a 25% to 50% surcharge (much like a fuel surcharge) on the scheduled price, but also make them aware that this surcharge would NOT have applied had they gained written permission prior to publication. This is one method of encouraging organizations to seek prior permission. It saves them money.

Good luck. Here is the link and the link text if the autolink doesn't work.

Steve

http://www.photovault.com/Link/index.images/PHOTOVAULTPricing.html#anchor630501

http://www.photovault.com/Link/index.images/PHOTOVAULTPricing.html#anchor630501
 
manzoori
Posts: 1459
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 7:08 am

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:28 pm

Excellent!

Thanks very much for that Steve!

Cheers!

Rez
 Big thumbs up
Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
 
manzoori
Posts: 1459
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 7:08 am

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:57 pm

Well, the story continues!  Sad

I did as suggested and phoned the editor of BA News and requested £500 for the use of the photo. Some of you may consider this to be a ridiculously high figure, but I thought I'd start high and allow them to knock me down a bit. Bear in my the image was used without permission and is in a high circulation publication.

Today I got the following e-mail in response:

Dear Rez - sorry it's taken a while to reply to your message.

As far as the price for using the picture is concerned, you may be unaware
of the normal charges in the newspaper industry for use pictures. The Press
Association charges in the region of £80 for a pic that is used quarter
page size - ie very large. Your pic, which was used very small, would be in
the region of £30.

In light of this, as a goodwill gesture, I would be prepared to pay £50 for
having used the picture.

These are - as you know - very tough times indeed for the airline industry.

Thank you for your understanding.


*sigh!*

I don't know whether to be insulted or glad to be getting even that much?

Any comments from some of you regular photo sellers?

Many Thanks

Rez
Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
 
EGBB
Posts: 527
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2000 3:21 am

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:13 pm

Rez

I would reply saying that you feel insulted by their offer and unless they come back within 24 hours with either a more realistic cash or other reimbursement you will take the matter further. Have you suggested say 2x free rtn tickets to a destination of your choice?

You might also say that you intend to phone a consumer radio or TV station for advice but stress you wanted to sort this out amicably but feel you now have no choice but to take this further.

Sounds to me they are trying it on

But please don’t say yes to 50 pounds it’s a joke.

Derek
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:26 pm

The problem here is, assuming you don't accept the offer, what will you do next. As the amount is under £2500, you could pursue that matter through small claims court, however, I suspect they will accept the guidelines quoted by BA - particularly if BA can show this is what they normally pay - and unless you can demonstrate (and quanitify!) additional damages, I doubt you'll do much better.

Derek's idea of asking for payment in kind may well be more productive, as this gives the BA News people a little more room for maneouver without upsetting their accounts people!

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
qantas744
Posts: 1658
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 6:25 pm

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Tue Jul 01, 2003 6:59 pm

Rez,

They are totally ripping you off here, it might be worth doing a little research to find out which BA routes have the lowest load factors-surely they are not filling every seat on all their JFK flights so putting you in seat that would otherwise be empty and earning no revenue has to be better than paying even £30 to you-who knows you might want to fly with them again if they sort this out properly.


Matt
you can't buy time but you can sell your soul and the closest thing to heaven is to rock'n'roll
 
KingWide
Posts: 698
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 7:30 am

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:28 pm

Sorry to buck the trend but it seems like a reasonable figure to me.


J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Tue Jul 01, 2003 7:37 pm

I say "reasonable" is out the window when they use the pic without asking *first*.
They decided to go ahead anyway. Now pay up!
The ticket deal might be good for both parties though...
/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
JayDavis
Posts: 1870
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 1:09 pm

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:20 pm

I don't know what the actual rates are in England, but this is more than anything, a copyright issue. I think you have a strong case to take legal action against them, if you want.

Good luck !!

Jay Davis
 
Guest

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Tue Jul 01, 2003 11:54 pm

This exact thing happened to me earlier this year with a company in the US. Tell them that if they don't pay the money you want, you will see them in court.
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:03 am

you will see them in court

people often say this, but the courts will generally NOT award punitive damages for copyright infringment unless you can show material loss or damage as a direct result of the infringement.

You might get lucky, but in general expect to receive no more than the market value of the shot, which, in this case is probably less than £50.

Of course threatening court may get the company to up the offer - maybe to avoid the publicity - but, frankly, at these prices it is probably not a very effective use of your time and effort to actually go to court.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
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RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Wed Jul 02, 2003 1:18 am

I would take the money offered, and their word that they will look at other pictures of yours should the need arise.

Take the happy route. Let's say you take them to court, sue for £ 500 and win. How long would that take? 20 hours of your time? Plus the hassle? It is a lose-lose situation.

 
qantas744
Posts: 1658
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 6:25 pm

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:20 am


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Rez Manzoori



The comment says that you were on a BA744 when you took the picture, so if you go down the legal route couldn't they say "you were on our property operating an electronic device at a time when your camera should have been safely stowed.......etc etc etc"

I'm not a lawyer so I may be talking rubbish but it's just a thought.



Matt
you can't buy time but you can sell your soul and the closest thing to heaven is to rock'n'roll
 
G-CIVP
Posts: 1468
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:38 am

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Wed Jul 02, 2003 5:50 am

I'm going to wade in here.

Take the fifty quid! Its £50 you never, had, or wouldn't have had, unless someone had tipped you off.

As Colin says, going to Court will cost you more than fifty pounds.

BA won't get frightened by any legal threat as they:

i) have, (probably) in house lawyers, who can write nasty letters.
ii) have access to, or use, one of the top law firms in the City.

Any legal claim you launch will be very small beer compared to legal work on aircraft leases, purchases, trademarks etc.

As for contacting a consumer programme. The big commercial channels aren't going to touch an issue like this; two words, advertising revenue.

Take da money!
 
photopilot
Posts: 3087
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 11:16 am

RE: Yet Another Copyright Issue - Part 2

Wed Jul 02, 2003 7:34 am

Well Rez, as painfully as it is to accept, you DID NOT win the lottery, the sweeps, nor the double quinella.
What you did was to sell ONE single photo.

I sent you a pricing guide from PhotoVault, and going by their guidelines, you should charge $160 dollars, or about 75 Pounds. This is the realistic value for the usage of your photo.

Yes, you are pissed off that they did not ask permission first. And it is easy to say "I'm going to sue" and then head to court.

But let's realistically look at the damages. A judge WILL ask you the following....
1) What is the regular rate that a photo such as this would bring for this usage?
2) What price (if any) has this photo sold for prior to this usage? Proof?
3) What price do you regularly command for your photos for similar use? Proof?
4) Are you a "name" Aviation Photographer with a professional reputation to uphold? Did this usage in any way "damage" that reputation?
5) Are "punitive" damages (punishment of BA) warranted for this breach of copyright? If so, how much?
6) Does BA's use of this photo at a small size in a small publication substantially reduce the value of this image for additional sales? If so, can you prove a loss of sale or value directly BECAUSE of BA's use of the photo.
7) Was there malice or intent to injure you (monitarily) on behalf of BA?

Unless you have iron-clad answers and proof for questions such as these the answer becomes painfully simple.

TAKE THE MONEY.

And always remember. Are you after a single time big score, or would it be of more value to you in the long run to act with class and politeness (the high moral ground) and develop this contact for further sales on a regular basis? The choice is yours.

Steve



[Edited 2003-07-02 00:37:59]

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