andrewuber
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Canon 10D Or D60?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:09 pm

I've been using an Olympus C-4040Z with some luck, but I think I'm ready to take the leap into digital SLR photography. I like Canon, and want 6 megapixels or more, so I'm considering the 10D, the D60, and the Canon Digital Rebel (maybe even the Nikon D100). Can anyone tell me the differences in the 10D and D60? The 10D seems to be a bit more money - is it worth it? Or, would it be "over my head" as an amateur? Also, which lens(es) should I start out with?

Perhaps most convincing to me were Sven De Bevere's photos - I've never seen such clarity and sharpness.

Any help is greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Also - are digital SLR cameras (such as the 10D, D60 and Digital Rebel) good for timed exposure shots? My Olympus gets a lot of video noise on an exposure of 2 or 4 seconds... just wondered if this is typical of digital cameras or just CHEAP digital cameras!!!

[Edited 2003-11-13 11:15:18]
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
manzoori
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 7:50 pm

Andrew,

The canon EOS 10D is an update on the D60. It's worth checking out the reviews on DPREVIEW.COM but from what I've gathered so far, if you can afford it, go for the 10D.

Colin Work has got both, so he may be able to give you a real life viewpoint of which to go for.

Good Luck!

Rez
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ckw
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:07 pm

The 10D addresses some issues of the D60 - primarily the AF system has been significantly improved. Flash is a little better, exposure system has been tweaked (but not necessarily improved) 1 frame larger buffer and the ability to fit perhaps 10% more shots on a CF card. LCD display is better.

In terms of image quality - identical at 100 ISO. As you move to higher ISOs, the noise is slightly less on the 10D.

But I find I use both cameras about equally, and don't find myself reluctant to use the D60. The difference will be price. Knowing what I know, if had to replace the cameras, I think I'd be willing to pay a 20% premium for the 10D over the D60. So I'd consider a new D60 at 75% or less of the price of a 10D a bargain.

The 300D definitely be considered - great price, basically the same image quality as the 10D and D60, but slightly crippled in terms of offering full creative control.

All 3 can produce excellent very long exposures with little or no noise.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
dazultra
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Thu Nov 13, 2003 11:32 pm

Go for the 10D if you can afford it, its by far the best of the 3.
The 300D is basically a 10D in a plastic case (as opposed to magnesium alloy  Smile/happy/getting dizzy ) and with a few less manual controls.
The D60 you will only be able to get second hand now since the 10D has effectively replaced it.

In terms of lenses, if you can afford them go for L series lenses since they will offer the best quality throughout the zoom and aperture range. Im only a student so I cant afford premium lenses like that, but I do have the 75-300 f4-5.6 USM IS which I find is very good for what it is, but the sharpness tends to drop off at the higher end of the zoom scale.

Also when you buy, don't forget your accessories
- you will definitely need a spare battery, my 10D takes about 300 shots and the battery dies after that.
- since the camera is 6.3mp (all of them) the images recorded are very high in size, and in raw format they can be 6-8mb so consider a large size compact flash card (512mb +). Don't bother with Microdrives they are too slow since they are essentially miniature hard drives and take time to spin up and access sectors etc. Also because its a physical moving device it will eat more battery than a solid state compact flash card for example.


Hope this helps

Dazultra.
 
TZ
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:02 am

Contrary to what Dazultra has said, the 10D and D60 are almost identical. Like Colin said, the 10D addresses a few of the small niggles of the D60. One downside with the 10D is that it comes with a single-battery recharger - the D60 has a dual battery charger. The latter is very useful, since you can leave two batteries charging and go away and leave it (or go to sleep), and their both done when you get back.

Again, contrary to Dazultra, I have found my Microdrives to be faster than standard SanDisk cards, and very nearly as fast as Ultra SanDisk cards. The only noticable slow-down comes when the 1GB card is almost full, then it takes a little longer.

I have never experienced any noise on my night shots (right up to 300 secs and more). However, I do now have a couple of "hot pixels" which have to be cloned out from night shots. Two bad pixels out of 6,300,000 isn't really a big deal, after all!

You'll be happy with any of the above cameras. Don't forget the camera may well be less than 50% of your investment - you'll probably also need some memory cards, lenses, storage for the images, etc, etc.

Tamsin
TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
 
andrewuber
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:17 am

Thanks for your input everybody. I'm actually a die-hard E-Bayer, and will probably buy my new camera from there (I bought my Olympus from there, and will be selling it there!). Unless I find an absolute steal on a 10D, I might give the 300D a shot. Looking through the d/b, I came across quite a few very impressive shots taken by folks who seem to be in love with their digital rebels, such as this one:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Tim Samples


Also, being such a novice, I think the majority of the features of the 10D would go unnoticed by me for quite some time. Dazultra - good point on the battery charger - I may try to find one of those dual chargers, or a battery grip for the camera. Either way, you're absolutely right - it's a REAL bummer to lose your battery just as that AN-124 is on short final!!!

Any other comments / advice / input is greatly appreciated! If you have a Digital Rebel, 10D or D60, feel free to sound off here if you get a chance!
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
TS
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:39 am

Again, contrary to Dazultra, I have found my Microdrives to be faster than standard SanDisk cards, and very nearly as fast as Ultra SanDisk cards. The only noticable slow-down comes when the 1GB card is almost full, then it takes a little longer.

Interesting topic. Tamsin, did you notice any difference in energy consumption of CF cards v. MicroDrives?

Thomas
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 
ckw
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 1:48 am

While I agree the dual charger for the D60 is nice, if you go 10D or 300D you can always buy a 3rd party charger and batteries if you need them. I think the build issue can be overstated - the camera is tough enough, and the critical lens mount is metal. I guess it depends how much you want to abuse it, but it shouldn't fall apart in your hand!

When looking at examples, remember its the lens that really matters - any of the Canon DSLRs are capable of revealing the limitations of cheap lenses. Unless you know you have a need for the 10Ds extra features - one of which might be mirror lockup for long exposures - the 300D may suit you best.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
TZ
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:34 am

Thomas: In my experience, any additional drain on battery power from the Microdrive is negligible. I certainly have never been able to detect any difference at all.

The major factors (again, in my experience) in battery useage are, in priority:
1. Cold weather (I'd guess that at 0degC, battery life is half that at 21degC),
2. Use of IS lens (in IS mode, of course!),
3. Excessive use of the LCD while bored waiting for the next aircraft to arrive.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Tamsin
TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
 
2912n
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 2:35 am

Invest in the battery grip and 2d battery. Gives you plenty of battery power for long days and makes the camera feel much better in your hand. It does add extra weight, but is well worth it.
 
TZ
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 3:35 am

2912n: Good point. I thoroughly endorse that.
TZ Aviation - Aeropuerto de los Banditos Team Images
 
dazultra
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:33 am

Regarding the microdrive / compact flash issue - microdrives will only read / write at about 1.5-3.5mb a second. 40x compact flash cards can go up to 6mb a second, theres loads kicking about on ebay for decent enough prices.
The sandisk ultra cards are nothing special the unbranded ones can outperform the sandisks easily for half the price.
Also because the microdrive is a moving device it is more likely to wear out and break compared to a compact flash that has no moving parts. Trust me, I know about IBM hard drives and how UNreliable they can be  Big grin
At the end of the day its a hard drive, so if you drop it or knock it by mistake, that's the end of it...
Anyway I wish you the best of luck with your choice  Smile but its solid state for me everytime...
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:38 am

One the subject of memory, you might want to give crucial.com a try. They are a sub of Micron, and they offer a lifetime warranty + 2-day Fed Ex shipping.

A 512 CF card goes for $115 US.

The 1 gig is $271 US.
 
Bronko
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 4:58 am

Amazon has 1GB Vikings for $149.00 after rebate, and 512's for $75.00 after rebate. Of course you have to play the rebate game.

I purchased a RiData 512 for around $120.00 from mydigitaldiscount. It is supposed to be one of the fastest, and there was no rebate involved. It shipped within hours of ordering too.
Jet City Aviation Photography
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:10 am

I have heard odd things about rebates on Viking CF cards purchased on Amazon. If you fire up the the digital storage forum over at dpreview.com you can find out what I am talking about, as well as lots of other hot deals on digi media.
 
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Bruce
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:13 am

Maybe neither. I think that there will be a new camera introduced at the show in February 04 - one that would replace the 10D.

If so then 10D prices will drop. PLus there'll be a new camera on the market.


bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
JeffM
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:29 am

Wow, the 300 has only been out a little over a month....and now another "new" Canon is ready to roll? Why buy one at first release? Just wait 6 months for the next generation to appear and then buy it.

v/r
 
2912n
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 5:52 am

Bruce do you have some solid rumor? Or are you speculating?

The 300D has been a hot seller for Canon, and with the holiday season upon us they will probably sell even faster, so I would suspect that Canon is putting it's efforts on meeting that demand at the moment.

But the digital camera field is now where computers were just a couple of years ago, wait 6 months and something with double the ability is out at a lower price! But I think with the current crop we will see a slowdown in replacement products. Canon found the niche with the 300D, others will probably follow with their own lower priced DSLR. Even as hot as the D30-60-10 (who made up the number flow????) and the D100 have been the 300D has grabbed the market for people who want a "reasonably" priced camera with the SLR features. I would guess that Nikon etc...will now be setting their sights on matching the 300D in price and features. (Of course I could be wrong...just ask the wife!  Smile )
 
Bronko
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:36 am

If this rumoured camera is replacing the 10D then it is not a competitor to the 300D.
Jet City Aviation Photography
 
JeffM
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:44 am

Of course not "Bronko"....the money goes to the same company!

 Laugh out loud v/r
Jeff
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 6:46 am

any ways, who cares? Buy the best thing you can afford when you have the money. If you don't, you will always be sitting on the sidelines. You'll be one of those "spec geeks" who can rattle off info about this and that but don't know shit about photography.

Look at some of the D30 shooters on this website, they kill it day in and day out, using a now 2 generation old Canon body.

And as others have stated, the glass you buy is where it's at. Go buy a body, buy some nice lenses and get it on.
 
Bronko
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:19 am

I purchased the 300D, so I would have more money to put towards the glass. I don't regret it at all.

Jet City Aviation Photography
 
andrewuber
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 7:46 am

Thanks everyone for the responses. I'm going to evaluate my money situation, and if I can find a great deal on a 10D, I'll snag it. Otherwise, I've seen some great 300D packages (including a lens and enough equipment to get shooting) for $1,000 or even less. I may go that route, and get some good glass, as you've all suggested. I'm tired of seeing BADSCAN and BADSOFT!

DREW

I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
manzoori
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Fri Nov 14, 2003 8:06 am

Hey Drew!

I'm tired of seeing BADSCAN and BADSOFT!

Sorry to be a party pooper mate but even with a 10D, D60 or 300D, if your technique isn't up to scratch then those rejections are still all too possible!

All the best for your imminent purchase mate, and I hope you're happy with whatever kit you get!

Cheers!

Rez
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Bruce
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:59 pm

2912n, no i have no hard facts. But it is just a known fact that canon considers the "shelf life" of a new model to be 18 months.

Clickhappy said it well though...."go buy a body and get some nice lenses and get it on...."

I guess what it comes down to is that any of these cameras are good for producing material of sufficient quality for this database. I agree with Manzoori, having digital is not a guarantee of success, but i will say from first hand experience that it is a tremendous improvement in your success rate. PLus, digital allows you more flexibility to practice the technique of shooting without wasting precious film costs.


bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
ckw
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RE: Canon 10D Or D60?

Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:09 pm

But it is just a known fact that canon considers the "shelf life" of a new model to be 18 months.

Not sure how you figure this ...

D30 ... (sept. 2000)
D60 ... (Feb 2002 - 18 months later)
10D ... (Feb 2003 - 12 months later)
300D ... (Sept 2003 - 6 months later)

On this track record a new camera is due tomorrow  Smile

On the other hand, film cameras run for years.

Bottom line, is no one knows what Canon will do much in advance - they are very secretive about product releases, perhaps why they keep catching the competition flast footed.

None the less, there are many "informed" rumours that a "3D" will be announced at PMA in Feb. - something positioned between the 10D and 1Ds. One very real indicator of this is plummetting 1D prices - I see it going for around £2200 in the UK now, suggeting dealers are being encouraged to shift stock before it becomes unsellable.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel

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