LGW
Topic Author
Posts: 4281
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 6:07 pm

Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:02 pm

Hi all,

Just after a little help and clarification before I go accusing an airline of stealing my image in writting!

Here is the site

http://www.iranair.com/genLnk/contact.do?c=i&rand=12769

and here is my image

http://www.airliners.net/open.file/186599/L/

Just a little help on whether or not you think that is my image they have used on their banner on the website?

Thanks in advance

Ben Pritchard
 
timdegroot
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:04 pm

No doubt about it, it's yours!

Good luck on getting some money from them Big grin

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
JT8D
Posts: 163
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:09 pm

It certainly looks like it Ben. Despite the small size and lack of detail in the banner, the resemblance to yours is unmistakable.

Graham
Graham Hitchen, KMIA
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:19 pm

LOL... Good luck to you. I suspect that the Iranian courts will be very sympathetic to your cause!  Nuts

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
IL76
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sat Jan 10, 2004 9:26 pm

Yep, it's your picture...
Makes me wonder where the 747-200 in take-off in the banner comes from aswell... I'm sure there will be another photographer very pissed off (when/if he finds out).

How can you fight this? You email them, ask them for compensation? And what if they say no? Or -what I expect- simply don't reply?  Sad

Good luck Ben... I hope you succeed contacting them...
 
KingWide
Posts: 698
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:07 pm

Take a look at the 'Our Fleet' section as well. A lot of those shots look familiar especially the SP and the 742 [looks like LHR departure shot from Queens to me]


J
Jason Taperell - AirTeamImages
 
PUnmuth@VIE
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:11 pm

Well the SP shot is mine
Thanks J and Ben
Peter
-
 
manzoori
Posts: 1459
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 7:08 am

RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:50 pm

Not saying they're all ripped off but...

The Image used for the 747-200 is by AirNikon

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © AirNikon



The Image for the 747-100 is by Alexander Jonsson

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alexander Jonsson



The Image of the A321-200 is by Michael McLaughlin

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Michael F. McLaughlin



The A310-200 is by Ivan Rodriguez

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ivan Rodriguez - IBERIAN SPOTTERS



The A310-300 is by Europix

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Europix



The A300-600R is by Alex

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Alex



The A300-B2k is by Dayot Jean-Charles

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dayot Jean-Charles



The 727-200 is by Propfreak

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Propfreak



As is the Fokker 100 by Propfreak

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Propfreak



Damned Shame webmasters feel they can rip people off like that!

Cheers!

Rez
 Big thumbs up
Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
 
Guest

RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sat Jan 10, 2004 10:55 pm

I found Propfreaks' picture from Teheran of an Iran Air Fokker 100 in the
'fleet' section. It seems as most photos are stolen from a.net.

Anders
 
kc7mmi
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sat Jan 10, 2004 11:54 pm

Why doesn't Johan get involved in this since it seems to involve a.net very much?
 
manzoori
Posts: 1459
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:01 am

But is this Johan's Problem? Surely you can't be holding him responsible for someone else ripping off the photos?

Cheers!

Rez
 Big thumbs up
Flightlineimages DOT Com Photographer & Web Editor. RR Turbines Specialist
 
kc7mmi
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:13 am

I'm not holding him responsible, I'm just saying that since this seems to involve a.net quite a bit, he should get involved. Here is a quote from the Use Photo link at the top "we do not appreciate and react strongly when finding our photos on other sites that use them without permission." So, where's the reaction? I am not holding Johan responsible, I'm just hoping he might get involved.

-Benjamin
 
administrator
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:18 am

I do consider it my problem indirect. If companies keep steeling photos from Airliners.net photographers will stop uploading. There's a difficult balance between showing the images in all their glory to all our visitors and protecting them from misuse.

I do not get involved in contacting the copyright violating company however, that I leave to the photographer.

We have been discussing this issue extensively in the past and most agree this is a risk people are willing to take when uploading to Airliners.net. The rewards are bigger than the "costs" of risking misuse which happens relatively seldom. I do have some plans for the future however that could help the situation a bit, more about that at a later date.

Regards,
Johan
Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)
 
lennymuir
Posts: 403
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:47 am

Which reminds me:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/aviation_photography/read.main/110667/

Have any of you guys affected by the Syrian acquisition had any response worth mentioning in here to assist with this thread?

Gerry
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 1:58 am

if you post your pictures online, people will steal them. The only surefire way to avoid is to not post your pictures.

Have you ever downloaded an mp3? Or a movie file? Or "borrowed" someones software?
 
LGW
Topic Author
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:09 am

Thanks for all your help on this and the confirmation.

I know the chance of getting anything more than nothing is very slim but I am not going to have my images stolen without a fight.

I know if you put your images online they are liable to be used illgally but thats not the point of my post. Nor is the issue of any other sort of downloads.

Thanks again

Ben Pritchard
 
747 4-ever
Posts: 575
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 2:17 am

Gerry: No, I'm still waiting for an answer from Syrian Air  Sad

Robert
 
ExitRow
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:50 am

Does Iran have that whole "cutting off a hand for stealing" law?

 Acting devilish
 
ebos
Posts: 448
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 4:57 am

It's something we have to live with i'm afraid. It's balancing between the 'benefits' and the risks of misuse. Two concorde-pictures were used on stamps in two African countries... chances to take legal actions against those countries are nihil i'm afraid. So if you can't live with it, there's only one solution: no pictures on the internet.

For me the 'benefits' are much more important than the copyright violations. I learned to know many people through a.net and that's the most important for me. But everyone has to make that decision for himself.

Sven


An-225 stalker: 1 x LUX, 1 x EIN, 1 x DXB, 2 x SHJ, 3 x CGN
 
ExitRow
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:31 am

If A.net, as a centralized organization, pursued violators as stringently as is worded in all the warning messages on the site, theft wouldn't be as prevalent a problem I think. As it now stands... those warnings are just hollow threats as most people that fall victim have no idea what next steps to take and probably don't have the time, infrastructure and abilities to pursue violators beyond a "hey... you stole my image!" e-mail.

All A.net would need to do is get some sort of legal pitbull who will defend us with the vigor of, say... Skymonster defending A.net in the forums, and we'd be in better shape as a group. Surely their must be someone associated with Luleå University that is knowledgeable in these issues. After all, A.net is the number one site, right? Surely someone could step up.

As many pro shooters know, the only way to defend yourself from these sorts of things is consistent, automatic legal action from an organized body. It carries so much more weight when a violator is confronted from a representative organization than just a single individual. For example, certain stock image firms have created a rap in the industry for pursuing violations of their photographers to the point that most designers and art directors in-the-know avoid thieving from them like the plague. It's not unlike the RIAA pursuing ANYONE that steals music. (Grandma's included.) They create an aura that persists to the point that makes some people think twice before stealing. It's by no means fail-safe. Theft WILL happen regardless... but at least it "looks" like you give a damn.

Again, it would require time, effort, organization and leadership beyond simple database scripts. Doing nothing, however, is by all means the easiest solution...

William


 
lennymuir
Posts: 403
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 5:47 am

sort of legal pitbull who will defend us with the vigor of, say... Skymonster defending A.net in the forums
Just the thought of it:  Nuts


Re: I should have checked the Syrian website first.
http://www.syrian-airlines.com The home domain is not available?
A traceroute is not getting very far either.....
Hmm, I wonder what has happened here?

Gerry

[Edited 2004-01-10 21:48:13]
 
Skymonster
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 6:11 am

LOL!!!  Laugh out loud

The Adminstrator has spoken on this one so there's not much more to say!  Yawn

However, to take up on a point made by ExitRow:

"certain stock image firms have created a rap in the industry for pursuing violations of their photographers to the point that most designers and art directors in-the-know avoid thieving from them like the plague"

Yes, and I bet those stock agencies charge a fairly hefty cut for their services, whereas a.net charges nothing. I suspect that legal representation of that nature doesn't come cheap but if William wants to start a legal fighting fund to which ALL photographers contribute on a regular basis, I'm sure we could set something up for ourselves  Yeah sure

Andy - trying to stay in keeping with reputation!  Wink/being sarcastic
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
ExitRow
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:11 am

The Adminstrator has spoken on this one so there's not much more to say!

Sure there is. It's called "collaberation" and "user feedback." I am sure Johan would love to hear the photographer's viewpoint. Our viewpoint IS important isn't it?

I suspect that legal representation of that nature doesn't come cheap

As I said in my previous post, perhaps this would make an excellent undergraduate project for a young, hungry law student looking for experience in copyright law. Then again... chances are a pursuit of a violation wouldn't get to the point of legal action in the majority of cases. You'd be amazed what a cease-and-desist order on an esquire's letterhead will do. Besides, I believe a firmly worded letter (yes... PAPER!) or e-mail (yes... NO PAPER!) from A.net would make a huge difference compared to doing nothing. Like I've said before, not only are image-lifters in violation of copyright, but in violation of this site's Terms of Service. The legal precedents must exist.

There are currently 10 database editors, 1 programmer, 1 article editor, 18 photo screeners, 12 forum moderators and even a marketing guy, but A.net can't find ONE person who'd be willing to help us defend our copyrights here? Put out a message in the forums. There are plenty of lawyers in the forums.

but if William wants to start a legal fighting fund to which ALL photographers contribute on a regular basis, I'm sure we could set something up for ourselves

It's really not about money. It's about resourcefulness. Finding the right people and creating the right kind of relationships (as in pro bono legal advice) is essential and potentially beneficial to everyone.

Ancient Chinese Proverb.
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"

No need to shy away from a solution with many benefits just because it requires hard work.

William


 
timdegroot
Posts: 3258
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:23 am

Ancient Chinese Proverb.
"A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step"
=============================================

An old Homer Simpson saying:
" Trying is the first step towards failure"  Big grin

I agree with Andy's point.

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
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Jofa
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 9:42 am

Clickhappy

"Have you ever downloaded an mp3? Or a movie file? Or "borrowed" someones software?"

What does that have to do with this thread?
 
concord977
Posts: 1224
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 12:07 pm

Here's a twist.

When you take a photo of an airliner, it is generally regarded as "public domain" subject matter.

However, when you sell a photo of an airline's aircraft, you are "profiting from proprietary subject matter". (I realize that you aren't offering this photo for sale, but many other shots on this website are available for purchase - with no percentage going to the subject airline).

It is creepy that a large airline would resort to stealing photos from this website.

But it is also possible for any airline whose aircraft photos are SOLD on this website to retroactively require you to obtain licensing to use their proprietary images and likenesses.

No info
 
User avatar
scbriml
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 3:49 pm

It is creepy that a large airline would resort to stealing photos from this website.

It's very unlikely that Iran Air directly stole the images from here. Most likely they contract out the setting up and maintenance of the web site to a separate company. They've found the images, loaded them on the web site, then shown it to Iran Air, who've said "Ooh, that looks cool! Let's go with it."

Re the issue of stolen images from here, the problem is you get what you pay for. You pay nothing to upload images here and have your work viewed by lots of people (with the possibility of some customers), so you can't really expect a.net to bring the full force of the law to bare on miscreants. Just MHO.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
G-CIVP
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Sun Jan 11, 2004 7:21 pm

"However, when you sell a photo of an airline's aircraft, you are "profiting from proprietary subject matter"."

We've had this argument before. If I recall correctly, Delta wanted to purchase an image of one of their aircraft from a photographer on this site. When the photographer asked for payment, Delta used 'it's our aircraft, our image in the first instance line' to deny payment Well, this line of argument would not stand up in UK copyright law.
 
ExitRow
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Mon Jan 12, 2004 3:56 am

I would still think that a photo of an airliner, unless taken on company property, would still fall under Fair Use.

Why? You're sale of the image is not in direct competition with the airline. (Does the airline sell images or have a photo dept?). Also, you are creating an original piece of work and not simply copying someone else's work.

Again, I am pretty sure it's been established that an airliner in flight is fair game as it is indeed in public space and affords no expectation of privacy.

Usually, there are no hard-fast rules in this area. It is usually reviewed on a case-by-case basis.

IMO, unless you are selling your images to someone who's intent is to disparage an airline on a mass media scale, I think you'd be okay. But be aware there's always a risk of a hassle. (Not necessarily prosecution.)

More info on this here:
http://www.nolo.com/lawcenter/ency/article.cfm/objectID/C3E49F67-1AA3-4293-9312FE5C119B5806/catID/2EB060FE-5A4B-4D81-883B0E540CC4CB1E

I may be missing something in regards to trademark law (in regards to the airlilne logo and titles) so if anyone is in the know and can expound on that, please jump in.

William

 
lennymuir
Posts: 403
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Mon Jan 12, 2004 6:52 am

...misconceptions...

When you take a photo of an airliner, it is generally regarded as "public domain" subject matter

No it isn't, it belongs to the photographer. Regardless of the airline company stickers, if the picture was a can of coke or a picture of Mickey Mouse.
True, if a picture was taken whilst 'on-duty' for the company as an employee, the company can acquire the rights (check that out with your employer) but not from a private individual.

There is a case that it wouldn't be in a photographers interest to 'publish' a photograph of an airport or airline on the internet if it betrays the location of the photographer showing that he/she was within a 'restricted area'. That in itself does not mean the copyright is tranferable. That would be trespass.

But it is also possible for any airline whose aircraft photos are SOLD on this website to retroactively require you to obtain licensing to use their proprietary images and likenesses

So I must assume airlines that have happliy purchased aircraft images from freelance photographers are mad?
May I expect to receive a selection of invoices from airlines demanding their 'belated share'?
I don't think so. Where's the precedent?
Some airlines might 'try it on' with those that are not aware of their rights and just cave in.
I'd be surprised to hear of any stories whereby such a claim was successful.

Gerry
 
LHRSIMON
Posts: 1314
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2002 5:59 am

RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Mon Jan 12, 2004 9:10 am

Well i can see your problem..... But the problem you are going to have is the fact that its Iran Air. I work in the airfreight industry in London and i can tell you that Iran air IS the hardest airline to deal with.

The most normal thing to you or me will be a big deal to them.... Trust me i have delt with them for 10 years and still they amaze me sometimes. Im sorry to say that you will have more chance knitting fog thaN getting anywhere with them.... Sorry to give you bad news but it just the truth.

BitE your tonge..... Enjoy your photo's but don't waste your time spending hours trying to get a few bucks from an airline that sometimes writes their own rules.

LHRSIMON
Canon 1D Mk III,Canon 20D+17-40 L f4.0,70-200 L IS USM f2.8,400 L USM f5.6,135 mm L f2.0, 50 mm f1.8,1.4 x II extender
 
Akumas
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RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Tue Jan 13, 2004 3:28 pm

That is indeed, your image...
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Illegal Photo Usage, Is This My Image?

Tue Jan 13, 2004 7:06 pm

I have always accepted the fact that my images appear on A.net at my own risk, and it is down to me to deal with any resulting infingement.

Nonetheless, given that there are various statements on the site prohibiting unauthorised commercial use, I think there is an arguement that A.net should, to some extent, back up these claims. Could it be we see so many A.net ripoffs because those concerned know A.net will not do anything about it?

Furthermore, I can see that in some situations, because A.net does not actively protect its interests, some courts may judge that images on A.net are effectively in the public domain. While this is not possible under UK or US copyright law, many other countries do not protect the interests of the artist as strongly.

Now I can well understand neither Johan or the A.net crew wanting to get involved directly in copyright issues, but many of the photographers who have suffered are not in a good position to pursue this themselves ... as has often been demonstrated in this forum, many do not have a good understanding of their rights, the law, or what to expect in terms of compensation.

Perhaps A.net could offer some indirect support:

1 - standardised letters which could be used by photographers in dealing with companies. With an A.net letter head, perhaps these would carry more weight?

2 - a simple letter which states that the organisation has violated A.net's terms of use ( this might be sent by the photographer in support of any claim being made)

3 - perhaps a "hall of shame"? Maybe the violation reports which appear here could be presented in a more formal fashion and archived for all the world to see (after confirmation of course!). Maybe removal from the hall of shame could be contingent on the photographer reaching a settlement.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel

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