User avatar
JeffM
Topic Author
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:27 am

Guys,
My emails to the Mayor/City County folks was answered today.... Here is the text...:

"To: Jeff Miller
Subject: RE: Talk To Us System Message


Mr. Miller,

Your email got forwarded to me... imagine that.

I think you know the answer you're going to get by now: even with
advanced notice, you may still be subject to scrutiny. Basically, there
is no way to let everyone know why you are there. Inevitably, somebody
doesn't get the word, and most people fall back on their training: to be
on the lookout for those who do not belong in the area.

Essentially, those signs are there so that we can control who does and
doesn't have access to that area, and quite frankly, Airport Operations
doesn't want a lot of people up in that area. There have been enough
credible threats against airports and airlines recently to justify a
certain level of paranoia. Even when your intentions are innocent, most
of those people have no way of knowing that. And right now, we don't
have the time or manpower to do background checks on people who simply
want to photograph airplanes. It's hard enough keeping up with everyone
who is actually doing business out here.

As I have told you before, this is simply the nature of the industry we
work in and I don't see that changing any time soon. You can continue
to let us know when you're going to be up there, but again, that doesn't
guarantee you won't be scrutinized. Since you are on airport property
up there, an airport operations person or Denver police officer does
have the right to tell you to leave. It's generally a judgment call on
that person's part, as you have probably seen in some of your
conversations with different entities. But the letter of the law says
you shouldn't be up there and that's what many people will choose to
enforce.

Again, I know this isn't the answer you want to hear, but it's the only
one I have.

xxxxx xxxxxxxxx
Public Relations Office
Denver International Airport



and my response:

Mr. Sxxxxxx,

Talk about a runaround.. This is incredible, but not unexpected. I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to the inquiry I made via the City's web site. In addition to this inquiry, I have been in touch with the Denver Police Department, the TSA, Airport Operations (Rxxxxx Dxxxxxxx, Exxx Hxxxl) DIA Security (Mxxx Nxxxx) and a Mr. Cxxxx Cxxxxx, Director of Public Affairs.

Those of us wishing to take photographs from that area are not against being scrutinized. Actually the opposite applies, we have been patient, and we understand that recent events have changed paranoia levels. Paranoia is one thing, common sense another, I think you will agree. You say you "don't have the time or manpower to do background checks on people who simply want to photograph airplanes." Yes, we simply want to photograph airplanes, well put, I could not have said it any better. Do we need a background check to do so? We have offered.

The posted signs say permission must be granted from the City and County of Denver. Do you legally represent the City and County of Denver in this matter? If not, all I would like to know is who does so I may contact them. What is so strange about this is the fact you at one time mentioned us paying for access. Does that make us less of a threat? Less of a draw on manpower? I have received a far different response from a few of the people I have spoke to about this, none of them mentioned payment.

Again, I appreciate your time and patience with me. I will notify operations of any future visits, and encourage the Denver Police to stop by, they have always been welcomed by our group of photographers, and understand our intentions. I do not yet consider this matter closed, as I am still in discussions with the above individuals, and still have a few more people up the chain to inform.

Thanks once again,

Jeff Miller


This is from the guy I used to call 48 hours in advance for access to the hill. Then he told me he had no authority to allow me access, and thus the beginning of the "battle". Now all of a sudden he has the authority to say NO? I still have calls in to 4 other people, so, don't get upset with this guy's response. Just an update for you. I've got a new camera and spiffy lens to take up there and try out!

v/r
Jeff
 
fireguy274
Posts: 291
Joined: Fri Dec 05, 2003 11:15 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:37 am

The way I see it is if you push it enough you will have no access at all. I see at least this point you may still be able to go there. If you piss this guy off enough you may not even have the chance to be there.....I know it sucks but its reality right now....Stay safe ....Artie
 
atomother
Posts: 389
Joined: Sat May 22, 1999 8:47 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 9:43 am

You can continue to let us know when you're going to be up there, but again, that doesn't guarantee you won't be scrutinized. Since you are on airport property up there, an airport operations person or Denver police officer does
have the right to tell you to leave.

So, they can tell you to leave but will they arrest you?
 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:22 pm

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:24 am

Thanks for the update Jeff, let us know how the other contacts turn out...this is getting more interesting by the day...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
User avatar
JeffM
Topic Author
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 10:53 am

Art,
We don't have ANY access up there as it is. So this is a "nothing to lose" type situation.

Tim,
That is the question of the year I guess.... I am going to try parking at the end of that dirt road...the one close to 96 and Queensburg, near the fuel farm. Technically, that area should be o.k. based on what the sign says.

Greg,
Interesting? I have been playing this game of "tag" for over a year now... errrrrrrrrrrr......... It has gone past interesting. I just want an answer from someone other then a Public Relations guy...

I need Tom Martino, or one of those t.v. news channel troubleshooters...
 
vafi88
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:32 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:01 am

I guess we can go to some news agency in Denver and have them do a story on it, but it won't help anything. It'll make them look like idiots (duh) and make us look geeky, it won't really give others sympathy, and no outcry or protests with big banners saying *Give us the hill by 16!!!*


I remember you have contacted the mayor or governor or someone, how did that turn out?

I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
User avatar
JeffM
Topic Author
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:06 am

"I remember you have contacted the mayor or governor or someone, how did that turn out?

You just read it.... wanna call that news agency now?


Jeff
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:25 am

So then I am to assume that it would be a bad idea for me to go spotting on Saturday?

Ahhh crap.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
vafi88
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:32 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:28 am

I wouldn't call it a bad idea, Eric, I'd just advise you to stay away from the trouble spots and don't give anyone any lip.

Also, don't make everyone KNOW you are there.

Edit:
Sorry Jeff, Didn't see that in the first place.

The thing that bothers me the most, is that it all leads back to manpower and money.



[Edited 2004-04-16 04:30:52]
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
vafi88
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:32 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:35 am

I have something of use for y'all.

http://www.baa.com/main/corporate/newsdesk/news_releases/2004/586f8b37c31e650380256e7500567929_page.html

This is a pretty good idea, and we've talked about it, maybe DEN is next to follow the trend???
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
Brick
Posts: 1488
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 1999 11:08 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:37 am

Jeff, I've been out of the loop for a while on all of this, but I appreciate you taking the time and effort to persue this for all of us.

Mark Abbott
Denver, CO
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
 
Bronko
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 3:28 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:42 am

Do you have, or have you considered a Concealed Handgun Permit? You will be subject to a full background check, and you do not need to own a gun to have the permit. If you were stopped, and the officer checks your permit, they will know that you do not own a gun.

This would provide the means of an FBI background check, without using the airports resources.

Very drastic, but something I have thought about. Fortunately, I have had no problems where I photograph, which is BFI.
Jet City Aviation Photography
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:44 am

So then I can still go out to the 35's and up on 96th?

can anyone give me directions to the 35's?

And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Brick
Posts: 1488
Joined: Wed Aug 04, 1999 11:08 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 11:50 am

I had a CCW issued by Adams County, but it has since expired. I need to get it renewed through Denver County. I just haven't been motivated to take care of it lately. Somehow, I don't think either ops or the Denver PD will accept a CCW in lieu of them running a background check even though they are exactely the same. Common sense doesn't seem to be present in a lot of this.

Mark Abbott
Denver, CO
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:22 pm

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 12:31 pm

Would it be possible to make an appointment or just walkup to someone high up in airport ops or city government and discuss this face to face??

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
vafi88
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:32 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:00 pm

Greg, it's easier for them to just ignore and kick us out, rather than to have to listen to us.

Unfortunately for us, this is typical pay paranoia.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
User avatar
JeffM
Topic Author
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Fri Apr 16, 2004 1:03 pm

Bronko,
That weapons permit is a good idea, but as Mark mentions, I don't think common sense is making an appearance here, at least at the moment. I have something even better, I have held a TS clearance in the past, all that info is on file, and I believe it probably has been checked. Their point is that they don't want to mess with having to check anyone. It is a bother...and easier to just put up a sign, and have the PD run us off.

Greg, I have been trying for over a year to find out just who to make the appointment with. And it has been my experience that just walking up without having an appointment won't get you the desired result.

I intend to push as many buttons as I can. I have a similar request 95% through the red tape department at Buckley AFB. All I had to do there was make a phone call, and forward copies of my I.D. and drivers license. And they have much more sensitive stuff there then DIA does.

Jeff
 
A340Spotter
Posts: 1741
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:52 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:34 pm

Hi guys,

For what it's worth, when I went up to DEN 2 weeks ago, I spoke with Cxxxxxx, the public relations mgr, and said that I was going to be on the hill overlooking the Frontier gates by their ops building. He was okay with that area and I spent the good part of 3 hours shooting F9, Ted and QX planes taxiing by.
I was asked once by an airport ops police vehicle what I was doing, advised them I was photographing airplanes and that I had cleared it with Cxxxxxx ahead of time...they said okay and away they went.
Just a thought, but would calling him before every time you go out there do anything to help, giving him a time frame, your license plate and type of vehicle, etc.? Been doing that down here in Houston with success ever since the Super Bowl...

Jeffrey
"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
 
User avatar
JeffM
Topic Author
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Sat Apr 17, 2004 12:47 pm

Jeff,
I used to do that until the guy in the letter above said he could not allow it anymore. I am going back to that plan. Was the pr guys name Chuck?


Jeff
 
A340Spotter
Posts: 1741
Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 9:52 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Sun Apr 18, 2004 3:38 am

Jeff,

Si senor...I had dealt with him a few years ago when trying to shoot a video for the big company in Boston and couldn't get far because of post 9-1 times, but just spending a few hours overlooking terminal A was fine, mainly because of the call ahead and that it's right next to their offices where I'm sure they were checking me out...

Jeffrey
"Irregardless, it's a Cat III airplane, we don't need an alternate!"
 
User avatar
JeffM
Topic Author
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Sun Apr 18, 2004 5:02 am

I know where your talking about. I'm referring to a different hill but thanks for the heads up.

Jeff
 
rsmith6621a
Posts: 1507
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Sun Apr 18, 2004 5:41 am



Not to get political or ridiculous......

Its time like this Ill bet having a certain Uncle Tom that lives in DC would be of great help...........

I wish the airport authorities would really get back to using their brains instead of their a$$es.........their philosophy is that the threat is only limited to the immediate area around the airfield......Wrongo!!!!!!.....Jeff being a Ex military guy you know what I mean.

The bottom line is they just don't want to hassle with us. I wish they would look to the MAN experiment over in Britain.....at least they have realized the spotters could be a great addition of eyes and ears.

Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
digital-cavu
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 9:11 pm

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:21 am

Rsmith, I sooooooo agree with you! It's the area 5 miles or more away on the extended runway centerline they should be worried about. Any nutball who knows even a little bit about weapons wouldn't stand on airport property and do anything.

We're experiencing the same paranoia in Boston. I started a thread a couple of weeks ago, and got essentially the same advice that's been left here. The simple fact of the matter is, the FAA has given local authorities carte blanche with respect to allowing or disallowing photography. Orlando has a process to allow it. Boston is a total police state in a bottle.

I've got the text of an FAA message regarding photography at airports I can post if anybody is intersted.

Take care all.

Del

United States Navy submarine sailor turned aviation photography geek.
 
Bronko
Posts: 795
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2001 3:28 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:28 am

While you and Robert are correct, the problem is the airport officials in question don't control the area five miles away. They can only control what is inside the airport property.
Jet City Aviation Photography
 
User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 4935
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:46 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Sun Apr 18, 2004 8:34 am

You guys should at least be lucky you have another area to shoot from, relatively hassle-free. You dont know what some of us go thru just to get one photo. In fact, if you find a cheap airfare to HSV I'll be happy to show you how bad it can be.
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
BDLGUY
Posts: 183
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2000 9:10 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:16 pm

I've got the text of an FAA message regarding photography at airports I can post if anybody is intersted.

Yes, I am interested.

Thanks a lot!
John Perrotta/BDL
John A. Perrotta (KBDL/BDL) - Canon 300D/400D & EF 75-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM
 
vafi88
Posts: 2981
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:32 am

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Sun Apr 18, 2004 12:23 pm

Yeah, I'm pretty interested about that memo from the FAA, You'll have to post some stuff.
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
digital-cavu
Posts: 140
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2002 9:11 pm

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Mon Apr 19, 2004 3:33 am

Okee dokey...here's what the FAA says:

"The FAA does not have regulations that relate directly to photography at
airports. 49 CFR Part 150, Protection of Sensitive Information, states in
part, "Information that could help someone determine how to defeat security
systems is protected from public disclosure under Part 1520."
Photographing airports or equipment could fall under this CFR. This rule
allows airports to include a provision in their airport security programs
to prohibit people from taking pictures of security equipment or areas
defined as "security sensitive." You should contact airport management
before taking photographs at a particular airport."

Pretty much gives the airports carte blanche. I wonder how they'll prevent us shutter bugs from taking pictures through the windows of the aircraft we're sitting in? Seems to me the subject would be the same.

At this stage, it's mattering less and less. BDL, last time I checked, the little viewing area on the NW side of the airport (really no more than a wide spot in the road on a small hill overlooking the North-South runway) has been a favorite harassment area for the CT State Police for some time now. Last time I was up there, they enforced the No Parking regulation, so I drove off property, parked my car, and walked back in. Then, when the same trooper came back, I was all of a sudden trespassing. I'm starting to think they don't want us there. LOL

Anyway, good luck and be safe out there.

Del
United States Navy submarine sailor turned aviation photography geek.
 
rsmith6621a
Posts: 1507
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 2:21 pm

RE: DEN Offlimits Update

Mon Apr 19, 2004 4:39 am



Boy......

Talk about VAUGE that CFR takes the cake.

Thanks for sharing this.
Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 3 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos