manzoori
Posts: 1459
Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 7:08 am

Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 4:31 pm

Just spotted this in another thread (Thanks for the headsup Vitaly!) and thought it may be of interest to the LHR photographers.

BAA News Release

Cheers!

Rez
 Big thumbs up
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Sukhoi
Posts: 1561
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 3:03 am

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:17 pm

The LAASI backed scheme will apply to all airfields in the UK from what I understand. I believe you need to be a member of LAASI or a recognized enthusiasts group/society to apply.

To download an application form go to http://www.btinternet.com/~dougbex/TAESS.pdf

Im sure anybody connected to the scheme will add/correct any information

Cheers

Paul
 
Stefan
Posts: 41
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RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:28 pm

hm... if i´am once a visitor to LHR, it seems that there will be no chance for me to do some serious spotting if I dont own this ID Card (if ever introduced).

also, this looks like real paranoia to me and I´m a bit concerned about this kind of "evolution" that happens to spotters. :
 
LHRSIMON
Posts: 1314
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2002 5:59 am

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:56 pm

This system is all well and good if you are a member of a group or society. I live near LHR i do not have the need to be a member of LAAS or any other group as there are plenty of Aviation shops near my house who supply anything i need. If i want to buy a club magazine/newsletter i just go to one of the many shops and buy one. Any other info i receive from the net from the excellent Yahoo groups like Civil spotters & LHR spotters !!!!

Up until now i have spotted/photography at LHR without to many problems. Everyone knows the normal spots in which to shoot and so do the police. Last Friday i counted no less that 40 cars parked up by the road under 09L. The police knew what everyone was up to and drove past just checking. They knew if anyone tried to jump out a car and fire something at a plane this would be the last place they would do it as they would have been jumped on by 50 or so spotters. If this new scheme is started i am not sure how it will effect the feeling between the spotter and the BAA / Met Police !!!!

IMHO i do give credit to the scheme but i do not agree that it should be done through a club or organization. It should be handled by the BAA with a system like Orlando. The person would have to supply ID etc etc and then pay a small fee (no more that gbp 15.00) to receive the yearly pass.....

I just feel at present im going to have to join a club just for the reason to get the pass...... Which i think is unfair.

That being said i do applaud LAAS in getting this thing off the ground and all the hard work done by this group.

Simon Curtis

[Edited 2004-04-16 10:56:39]
Canon 1D Mk III,Canon 20D+17-40 L f4.0,70-200 L IS USM f2.8,400 L USM f5.6,135 mm L f2.0, 50 mm f1.8,1.4 x II extender
 
ryangooner
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2003 4:56 am

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 5:58 pm

Personally i dont see this as good news - you will be signing up for some kind of contract to keep away from certain areas ? ie security fences! well in my view the entire perimeter is a security fence , is this the start of why the new gorgeous spotting area at the visitors centre has been erected, believe me this is not a scheme thats devised to help spotters at heathrow but a scheme implemented at controlling the spotters.

maybe im becoming sceptical in my old age?

Police implement schemes for a reason and its not to keep the spotters happy!!!!

Ryan Hemmings
ooh to ooh to be ooh to be a gooner!
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
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RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 6:00 pm

Whilst I'm not against an ID scheme as such, I am a little concerned about the maintenance of such a scheme being farmed out to LAAS, or for that matter, any other enthusiasts group. If such a scheme is dealing with "security", frankly I'm not sure I'm happy giving my details to an organisation which I know effectively nothing about. What are they going to do with the details? If nothing, then the scheme is pointless. If they are going to run a check on me, I would want to know exactly what that entails, and who else will be party to the info.

If the scheme is worthwhile it should be administered by the police.

I could also get a little worked up about the need to spend £15 for the "right" to stand on public property.

After all, who really benefits from this? I already have the right to stand at Myrtle Ave. etc and take pictures whether the authorities like it or not. If they want me to work for them, perhaps they should be paying me  Smile

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
sulman
Posts: 1963
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RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:20 pm

The cynic in me sees it as a fairly shrewd move on BAA's behalf; at no cost to themselves, they've outsourced a security and cleaning role. Plus, LAAS have secured exclusive supplier rights.

Why can't BAA follow Manchester's example, and have some passion and enthusiasm for spotters and photographers?
It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 7:20 pm

As implemented, I see little real value in this scheme, other than it reminding enthusiasts to call someone if they see something untowards happening around an airport. Unless significant background checks are done on applicants (admittedly the application form does suggest that some checks will be made, but what checks and by whom - I'd want to know before I gave them things like my passport details), all the card says is "hey, I've paid £15 to have a nice card with my picture on it" and doesn't infer anything about a supposed enthusiast's passive intents - indeed, such a card could be used for quite the opposite reason, and anyone can join an enthusiasts club if they so wish!

There will be countless non-affiliated enthusiasts from the UK and hundreds of enthusiasts from abroad around LHR and other British airports this summer, and a lot of them won't have cards. So what? If they know the telephone number to call if they see something suspicious, they're just as capable of helping the cause as is someone who's got some sort of id badge. And if those not carrying a card are conducting their activities from legitimate publically accessible locations, I see no grounds for moving them on just because they don't have a card. Or maybe the authorities are going to be more lenient to those with a card? Which taking the argument to its logical conclusion brings me back to the previous point about background checks and anyone being able to join an enthusiasts club.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
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RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:01 pm

Perhaps LAAS should market this as a kit - identity badge plus a check list of aircraft to spot and a secret decoder ring  Smile

The more I think about this, the less I like it. Clever LAAS - they've hit on a nice little earner - for an extra £5 perhaps you could get permission to breath the air around airports.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
LHRSIMON
Posts: 1314
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RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:01 pm

Agree with your comments Andy. As i said in a previous post why do the BAA not start a system the same as Orlando airport.

If the BAA could get their act together and issue the airport passes i would have no problem. I am very unsure if i would be happy giving my details to a group who inturn could be calling people i know asking for confirmation of my hobby.

IMHO i could see the whole thing being solve in three easy steps.

1) BAA in control of a pass system...
2) Proper viewing areas. Nothing special just a place for people to stand and park their cars in the following locations. Mertle Ave field 27L . In the field under 09L. And by the huts on 27R (rather than putting bollard up why did they not put parking spaces there for the spotters. It would also mean that people did not block the drive's used by the companies in the huts.)
3) Spotters just use common sence and only use these spots. So if someone was up to no good in another non-spotter area the BAA/Police will see something is wrong straight away.

Is it just me or would the above solve the problem 100%

Canon 1D Mk III,Canon 20D+17-40 L f4.0,70-200 L IS USM f2.8,400 L USM f5.6,135 mm L f2.0, 50 mm f1.8,1.4 x II extender
 
ryangooner
Posts: 956
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2003 4:56 am

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:04 pm

Skymonster

Too answer your question, the background checks will be made by the police for intel reasons.Make sure you have no previous terrorist activities!!!

police records will be checked - everyone is checkable - well near enough!

I just wonder what will happen to the spotters without the ID?

Ryan Hemmings
ooh to ooh to be ooh to be a gooner!
 
ua935
Posts: 547
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2004 5:41 am

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:16 pm

When you have a look at the details in the memo with the form it does say that they intend to make this available to everyone whether you are a member of a club or not.

I am not too happy giving my details and passport photo out and it would just appear to be a way for someone to make an extortionate amount of money out of something which cannot be regulated or policed.

£15 to stand on a public footpath or in a playing field!
Live every second like you mean it
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:34 pm

Too answer your question, the background checks will be made by the police for intel reasons.Make sure you have no previous terrorist activities!!!

Not so bad then. By the way though, why do they need my passport? If I had a police record (I don't, by the way) there'd be no corrolation between that and my passport - I don't even have to tell the passport office when I move house - and if I send them a photocopy of my passport it doesn't have my address on it so I could still provide a false address on the application form.

I just wonder what will happen to the spotters without the ID

Well if all it means is that their details get checked real time if they're asked whilst at the airport, that's fine - I could live with that. If they start trying to move on people without a card, whilst allowing those with a card to remain, I can see the whole thing decending into fiasco because there's going to be many more people without cards than with, and some of them are going to get very upset if they are moved on from legitimate publically accessible places because they haven't (for whatever reason - not in a society, or from abroad and not aware of the scheme, for example) got one of these damned cards.

Andy

[Edited 2004-04-16 13:36:49]
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Fri Apr 16, 2004 8:39 pm

One final thought - I'd like to know what I would get for my £15 should I ever decide to apply for a card. I can see to some degree what the airports and police get out of it, but they haven't put up any suggestions as to why I should spend money on a scheme about which they've failed to articulate the benefits to me personally.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
RyanAMS
Posts: 32
Joined: Tue Jan 13, 2004 10:19 pm

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:01 am

Looks like I`m in the minority here but I am all for the I.D card.

My 2 main reasons are.

1. Unlike many of you I am not a hardcore enthusiast. I`m a newbie who is finally going to get started spotting at LHR (fingers crossed my first visit will be next Friday) and as such I for one would have peace of mind that if I were stopped/questioned by the Met or other spotters I would have some proof as to why I am visiting the airport and surrounding areas.

2. If this scheme does prove successful it could eventually lead to the reopening of the observation desk. As we could all prove that we were legitimate enthusiasts etc and not terrorists BAA could no longer use the terror threat as an excuse.

Is this scheme up and running yet and if so are any others going to join?

If I make it to LHR on Friday and all goes OK I`ll definitely join.

Until next time
RyanAMS
RyanAMS
 
mdwalkman
Posts: 206
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 5:50 am

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:35 am

If they allow me to use ladder freely around the airport, I will join.
Please excuse my poor English.
 
LHRSIMON
Posts: 1314
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2002 5:59 am

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 6:53 am

I gather going near the fence with a ladder would be in breach of the rules. As far as I understand you are not allowed near any security fences as part of the rules to have the card !!!!
Canon 1D Mk III,Canon 20D+17-40 L f4.0,70-200 L IS USM f2.8,400 L USM f5.6,135 mm L f2.0, 50 mm f1.8,1.4 x II extender
 
Skymonster
Posts: 3428
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 7:53 pm

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:16 am

So, if I don't have a card, I go up to the fence, take a picture through the fence, and I might get away with it or I might not. But if I don't get away with it, all that's likely to happen is that I get told to leave the area. Now if I have a card and I get caught next to the fence, they'll know exactly who I am, I'm likely to have my card taken off me, I'll bring the scheme into disrepute, etc, etc. Hmmm, this card sounds like a dodgier deal all the time!

ANdy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
ckw
Posts: 4586
Joined: Fri Aug 27, 2010 12:26 am

RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 7:56 am

I'd stay clear of it. RyanAMS - you have a perfect right to stand on public land (which includes Myrtle Ave. and other favorite spots) and shoot what you like. The day we are stopped from doing this, we all have a lot more to worry about than a few pictures of aircraft.

The terror threat is not the reason the observation deck is closed - its simply the fact that BAA don't want to provide the staff to police it. This card won't change that. Now if BAA were running the scheme, and your £15 went to paying for observation deck staff, fair enough. But that is not the case in this proposal.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
lennymuir
Posts: 403
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RE: Good News Of LHR Photographers?

Sat Apr 17, 2004 9:07 am

There's a similar situation up north.

Glasgow (a BAA airport too) has been running a similar scheme since last year but it's not run by LAAS or any other recognised spotter organisation.
It is more like a local co-operative between the poilce and the spotters with BAA made aware of the activity.
I can't tell you how successful it is or what the local spotter/shooters think about it. Maybe Fred Seggie (FredS) will see this and add his thoughts on the current set up.

I'm not involved in any scheme at my local (Edinburgh, also BAA). I haven't been approached to join nor am I aware of any scheme.
It's just the 'Report suspicious behaviour' notices here and there.

Both our airports have one major problem, just like LHR.
The denial of proper spotter/photography areas, so the result is we are scattered all over the perimeter.
That is the fault of the BAA, making the Police work much more difficult, for sure.

Gerry

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