DLKAPA
Topic Author
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Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:07 am

Me and Richter were out shooting today, and we were stopped at spot "I." Apparantly the spot between the LSG Sky Chefs building and the Frontier Hangar is now no longer a good place to shoot. Basically it happened like this:

Guy in pickup approaches us and says (in an almost unrecognizable speech pattern): "you permissionshoot pictuhs (waves finger in our direction)." To which we replied that we didn't. So he asked us to leave.

I wish they would at least get security guards that can speek english. That would definetly help us out alot.

We moved down to Rental Car Road and had no problems whatsoever, several security and FAA vans passed us and just waved.

Time to cross out spot I.

Eric
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
N737MC
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:56 am

Ummm... you were not supposed to go to that area anymore. This has been discussed before. That area and the hill has been off limits for a long time. Why did you go?  Confused

That is not good for us here, we do not need more attention. I hope you did not ruin anything for us. I do not want this to come across wrong, but I feel this was stupid on your part. The rest of us know not to go there as we know we will get stopped.


Argghh..... Pissed

Aaron Mandolesi
Denver, Colorado
 
DLKAPA
Topic Author
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:03 am

We were in area I, just south of the hill. We had a printed copy of this map, and we thought I was still good. We weren't on the hill.

To see the map, scroll down to Jeff's reply. We were in the blue area just below the F9 hangar

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/aviation_photography/read.main/12346

Is this not up to date?

Eric
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
JeffM
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:04 am

Aaron,
Things are going to be much, much worse in about two weeks. Signs will be going up all over. They didn't do anything wrong...

Jeff
 
DLKAPA
Topic Author
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:06 am

Is DEN about to be completely off-limits to photographers?

Crap. Time to start driving south, COS here I come  Big thumbs up

 Crying

Eric
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
N737MC
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Joined: Mon Oct 09, 2000 3:29 pm

RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:07 am

I know exactly where you were. I know you were not on the hill. I know the spot in between the F9 Hangar and the Sky Chefs Place.

We should all know that security over there is tight with a guard shack not too far off. Plus don't you think the people at Sky Chefs will not look at you or security that drives by? You are very noticed in this area, just like the hill, hence why it is off limits. So why make yourself so vulnerable and plus make more of a reason for security to get on us. The more they get on us, the more they will keep doing it, no matter who is out there.

Sorry for the rant. I just don't want anything ruined.

Arggh....


Aaron Mandolesi
Denver, Colorado
 
N737MC
Posts: 619
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:09 am

Jeff, I know he really did not do anything wrong. The point is, I just don't want the security on us more. Just creates an effect on all of us out there.


Also, that sucks about the signs. Last time they said that, they never did. Just a scare you think?


Aaron Mandolesi
Denver, Colorado
 
JeffM
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:24 am

No scare, It's for real. I spoke with the Deputy Director of Aviation Security on the phone the other day.

I can't talk on the phone, I'm on a conference call.

Eric,
Those maps are not worth the ink you printed them with any more.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:28 am

Eric,
Those maps are not worth the ink you printed them with any more.


Good thing Richter was the one that printed them, then?

That really sucks. So far the only place where We can shoot now is the 35's and Rental Car Road? Security vans passed us several times on Rental Car road and we weren't stopped there.

Damn.

Eric
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
JeffM
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:32 am

at least for the next two weeks... I will be notified before the signs go up, but don't expect much more then 2 weeks. Don't forget the 16's.... and 8/26 as well
 
DLKAPA
Topic Author
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 5:40 am

Yeah, we were up at the 16's for about five minutes before we went down to the Sky Chef's building.

When we left Sky Chefs for Rental Car road, as we passed by the 16's, an AS 734 was on Short Final. Richter said he saw it from the corner of his eye and nearly Shit himself because he thought it was a truck about to sideswipe him.

Pretty funny as I was driving behind him and saw him swerve a little.

But I thought 8/26 was off-limits

Eric
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
ZOOMER
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 4:48 pm

America, land of the free! My arse! I get the impression there are quite a few of you in DEN. Why don't you guys get organized and negotiate with the airport authorities? If they refuse to co-operate at all enlist the help of the local press and show them examples (such as Vienna, Austria and Manchester, UK) where the local spotters/photographers are issued I/Ds and/or have been enlisted to help the airport authorities with security around the perimeter! Try and find yourselves a lawyer who will take your case on for free (he/she will benefit from the free publicity) to fight for the basic American rights of freedom that Bush and his cronies spit out all day long. I still am amazed that with thousands of aviation spotters/photographers in the USA you haven't formed an association of aviation entusiasts.
 
JeffM
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Thu Apr 29, 2004 10:40 pm

Zoomer, wow, so easy, why didn't we think of that.

I guess you don't understand the legalities of dealing with such issues on private property. You can have all the associations you want, won't mean a thing.

I am amazed at comments from people like you that try and tell us about American Rights.. living in a country like the Netherlands.....
 
ZOOMER
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:41 am

Hey, I spend a great deal of time in America and I'm not American bashing. You're going on the defensive because you've failed to grasp what I'm saying. By the way, I'm not Dutch and I have lived in 4 different countries. "Legalities" and "private property" has no bearing on the issue of getting organized and entering into negotiations with the appropriate airport authorities. EDUCATE them! You never know, if you present your case well and make them realize that aviation entusiasts are a source of FREE security, it might just work. As I said, it's been done at other airports. Or is it that when you say "private property" you mean private as in not airport property? That of course is another matter altogether - but still potentially negotiable. At my local airport I photograph mainly from public roads etc. However, there is one spot I like which is the private property of a company not even remotely connected with the airport. I went for a chat with the boss, explained what I did and would he mind if from time to time I used his parking lot (which is never full). He happily agreed.
 
rsmith6621a
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:23 am




>>>>Aaron,
Things are going to be much, much worse in about two weeks. Signs will be going up all over. They didn't do anything wrong...

Jeff<<<<<

Lets just take a minute and give thanks to the members of Bush Fear machine....Dick Cheney....Don Rumy......Tom Ridge.....

There is so much ignorance being passed off on these types of matters. What is really interesting is the TSA said two weeks ago that aviation wasnt as much of a concern as the Rail and Trucking industry.



Did You Ever Think Freedom Could Be this Bad
 
atomother
Posts: 389
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 2:57 am

I worked for the TSA, trust me when I say they are not going to enlist us as free security. They can't even get reliable service out of their paid security forces right now. If the TSA touches it, make sure they didn't steal half.

If you really want to you can get special access to get escorted around DIA inside the fence at the price of a small fortune. If you aren't going to drop some serious cash for them, then they only see you as a security risk and thats all.

It will be intersting to see what the signs say that are on roads such as rental car road, 35s, 16s, and even out on 08. They can't just say "no trespassing" or you will not be allowed to drive on the roads. I guess the wording of the signs will show us how bad the idea of trying to get to know the security forces was. At the time it sounded like a great idea to make ourselves known but now it seems to be backfiring. Oh well, we shall see... Looking forward to seeing these signs!
 
JeffM
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:37 am

Zoomer,

The property surrounding DIA is owned by the airport. This "zone" of private property extends more then a mile outward from the perimeter fence. Allowing public access or not is their perogative. Everything you mention has been approached with them, and dismissed. Thank you anyway.

Randy,
Your political ranting has long passed "Old and worn out", and I won't even comment on them. I do find it amusing that you use the term "ignorance". I was not aware that you were a such an expert.

Tim,
Some of the signs will likely be "no tresspassing" out around 08/26. The others I imagine will be "no stopping or standing" around rental car road, the 35's, and the 16's. And anywhere else they see fit to place one.

Jeff
 
atomother
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:45 am

Well if they are going to play that game, I say we make sure they have to spend alot of money on putting signs up all around the airport. All 55 sq. miles of it or however big it is. If they put them in the good locations just move down to the bad locations till signs go up there.

I will also never understand how the public airport of DIA is private property. Where did they get the money to pay for it from?

This is all very frustrating! I hope they don't start pulling this trick with parks and so on. Maybe they need to put up some signs like that over in Rocky Mtn Park? Mesa Verde? They are all wide open to terrorists!
 
atomother
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:53 am

That "no stopping or standing" will be tough to work around.
 
JeffM
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:02 am

Where did they get the money? The former Mayor (and the current one) are dyed in the wool "Tax 'em to death" Liberals.... Increased taxes and bonds.

I agree, they are going to be very busy, and it is going to cost them a lot in new signs. I do think that if we are in such danger, that media should be alerting the entire Denver area to the increased threat don't you? Or maybe it is going to be "safe" for the next two weeks, then it will be dangerous.....
 
atomother
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 8:31 am

So the money came from the people of Denver... Yet the airport is private property...

Does anyone know of an animal photo website like a.net. Perhaps mammals.net with large pics, top shots of the day, most popular lists and so on?
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:37 am

"That "no stopping or standing" will be tough to work around."

Doesn't that usually apply to vehicle traffic only??? If so, wouldn't it still be feasible to park over at the Conoco on rental row, buy a few drinks and snacks from them so that we are legit customers, and then hike over to the good spot on rental row?

Greg

Edit: I see Craig Mills posted virtually the exact same thing in the other DEN thread, which I didnt read til after I posted this...kinda weird...

[Edited 2004-04-30 02:39:33]
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
atomother
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:46 am

I have never been to that location really, too many people can see you there and get nervous about what you are doing there. Do you guys actually go on the north side of the road there or are you standing in the dirt parking lot beside the gas station?

I really don't think they will come up to you as you stand next to the sign that says "no stopping/standing" and say "ohh ok I didn't realize you were eating a sandwich from the gas station, by all means hang out a bit."



 
hisham
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:52 am

It's regulated public land. They can limit access within reason. What they're doing is almost an abuse of power.
There are plenty of cases in which a judge overturns the rules of government agencies when they are excessive. I don't see how this situation is different. This is the US for God's sake!!!!

Hisham.
 
United4everDEN
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:06 am

Maybe we should contact channel 7, they slogan is "working for you" Since I am "you", maybe there is something they can do?
 
CFIcraigAPA
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:20 am

Great minds think alike, Greg!

Tim, the buying the drink/sub from Conoco would really just be so they couldn't hassle us for parking in the lot and not forking over some precious cash to the establishment that owns the lot.

I've done this a few times. Typically I'll park in the lot, get all the gear I want/need and walk up the north facing exit (by the car wash) to Pena Blvd, then along that until there is a break in traffic to cross to the north side. Unless you really want to hike for a long way, you will only get about 2,000' from the AER of rwy 7. Departures can be tricky unless you have a scanner to listen to them get cleared to go on 25 since the first half of 25 is behind a hill. Not the greatest, but certainly the closest we can get as of now. I have had DPD and First Watch pass me while I was up there and none have given me a second look, surprisingly.

CM
Prior Proper Preparation Prevents Piss-Poor Performance
 
CFIcraigAPA
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:24 am

I doubt Channel 7 or any media would be sympathetic to our plight. They wouldn't stand to gain anything by helping us. No rating, no viewer share. Nothing. We're essentially on our own unless there happens to be some aviation photog that works for a paper or TV station that might offer some help on his/her own time.
In the words of a popular, but not very good song: "The future's so bright, I've got to wear a night vision scope . . ." - A little poetic license applied to match our situation.

CM

PS - Who is this Jeremy Irish that has some ramp level shots lately? Alex, Tim, do you know him?

[Edited 2004-04-30 04:28:19]
Prior Proper Preparation Prevents Piss-Poor Performance
 
JeffM
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:33 am

I think the news should be alerted to the grave danger, and imminent threats that they must have recieved. Why else would they need those "seriously effective" signs? I've already been told it wasn't because of us..!

Could be abuse of public funds, and our 1st Amendment Rights to Freedom of Speech may be being violated if they posted those signs just to prevent us from taking pictures.

 
maiznblu_757
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:35 am

Geez,
isnt there something you guys can do to possibly get them to consider an official observation area?
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:36 am

Oh wait, then the airport would be like KSAN, one spot, very boring after a while.
 
JeffM
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:38 am

I don't want a spot like that, I would rather choose my own. Just because they put up signs, doesn't mean we are shut out. We will just have to be more creative.

...and take good notes. I plan on documenting everything from here on out.
 
vafi88
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:45 am

Geez,
isnt there something you guys can do to possibly get them to consider an official observation area?


You mean like give them a few million bucks so they can get guys to plan it, materials and man power?
I'd like to elect a president that has a Higher IQ than a retarted ant.
 
United4everDEN
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:52 am

I may go anyway, sign or no signs. If they ask me to move along, I will go somewhere else.
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:02 pm

Vitaly,

Just move, then youll be all set.
 
United4everDEN
Posts: 737
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:15 pm

"so they can get guys to plan it"

Let us do the planning!  Big grin
 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:21 pm

Its not unheard of for the media to get involved...a few years ago when there was a crisis in FLL regarding the seemingly permanent closure of the viewing area there, Don Boyd spearheaded an effort to get it reopened, and the results of his efforts included a fairly lengthy article about the situation in the local paper written by one of the reporters there...yes, I know the situation here is a bit different, but it shows the media can take interest in the av. hobbyists' plight...does anyone here know anybody in the local media who might be able to point us in the right direction? Perhaps we could write an op/ed piece or something like that and send it to the Post or RMN?

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
United4everDEN
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:28 pm

This maybe going a little far, but Tom Martino? Another guy, I have had help me with other aviation related problems , and even published an internet article about the situation, Christopher Elliott. Other than that, I will look into it all further and keep you guys updated, this is something I am seriously following through with.
 
USAFHummer
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:40 pm

Christopher Elliott? *gag* I'm not familiar with Tom Martino though...

Greg

[Edited 2004-04-30 05:41:28]
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
JeffM
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 12:52 pm

I know this may not jive with my statements above, but let's just wait and see what the signs say, and where they go. If we react improperly, the media attention just might backfire.

My advice is to tread lightly for now. Patience may be rewarded.
 
DLKAPA
Topic Author
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 1:24 pm

This maybe going a little far, but Tom Martino? Another guy, I have had help me with other aviation related problems , and even published an internet article about the situation, Christopher Elliott. Other than that, I will look into it all further and keep you guys updated, this is something I am seriously following through with.

Tom Martino will never help us. He is only a "consumer advocate" for the money. Seriously, how many other Consumer Advocates take big pay advertising? Besides, my mom had to deal with him on the wrong end once, (working for the homeowners assosciation, I won't go into details, but it was all legit in the contract he originally signed), and he cursed my mom into oblivion.

And another thing, the guy lives in a Palace across the ridge from my house, and he has a fully lit 100yard driveway. The lights keep me awake at night  Pissed  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Ryan, don't just go even if there are signs. That would be the dumbest thing to do right now.

Aurora Reservoir, HERE I COME  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up  Big thumbs up

Eric
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
ZOOMER
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RE: Bad News DEN Spotters:

Fri Apr 30, 2004 9:45 pm

I still can't help frowning at the irony of Bush preaching freedom and democracy to the world whilst these very things are being erroded in his own country by his own administration!!! How ironic too that, in terms of freedom of movement, the USA today is fast becoming what the Soviet Union once was. Of course, the country is at war and security is paramount, but the extremes taken by some authorities are really not warranted. It needs a little common sense that's all.

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