SuperHornet
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Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:05 am

Be bold and tell me what you think about what is wrong with this photo because it is about as good as I can do. I caught four photos of this aircraft transitioning from level flight. I thought conditions where perfect the aviator did what I expected, when I expected it the transition was smooth through all four photos and this photo was selected for upload because it contains the best vapor burst.

Canon 10d
Canon 35-350 lens
1/1600 sec
7.1
RAW image
Photo Taken at 8:30 AM at 85° air temp.

http://airliners.net/procphotos/rejphoto.main?filename=7592.jpg
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DLKAPA
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:15 am

I can see some Jpeg compression in that one.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
rotor1
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:21 am

Great shot, but JPEG compression is aboundant. Either theres a LOT of cropping, or it was compressed too much. Post the original file if possible.

-Mike
The best aviation photo I've ever taken was rejected by Airliners.net
 
IL76
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:28 am

Gerry,
I replied your email with some comments. I hope you find it useful.
Cheers,
Eduard
 
SuperHornet
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:31 am

The orginal is a RAW file the orginal was 3072 X 2048 cropped to apprx. 1840 X 1192 and then reduced to apprx 1235 X 800 pixels the quality was maintained at 12 so I am not sure where the compression came from.

Please keep going I am actually setting in a meeting and attempting to read post at the same time quite fun actually.
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clickhappy
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:40 am

you need to pan a shot like that, use a much lower shutter speed and open that lens up a bit.
 
SuperHornet
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 5:59 am

To capture a photo at the instant their vector changes at 350knots/402 mph takes less than a second I was actually quite please with shutter speed because having attempted this before at 1250 it was very shaky if not even a little blurred. I will give your suggestion another try but all of this happens very quickly.
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Skymonster
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:08 am

There are some artifacts in the image, but they're not really excessive. With the greatest respect, even now it isn't the sharpest knife in the draw, but I wonder how soft the original image was... Have you already sharpened it (or rather unsharp masked it) quite agressively??? If so, this could account for the artifacts. If the original is fairly sharp already, its possible that a change to your unsharp process might fix things.

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:15 am

I have no doubt that it happens very quickly, but you are trying to achieve something that probably takes years of practice to get right. That is why I suggested in another thread that you practice on slower moving objects.
 
SuperHornet
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:40 am

This photos was sharpened and the USM was added perhaps poorly but I did get better masking this time on the central elements main features fwd fuselage, wing tips and vertical stabs.

Skymonster I guess I should say that I have had this camera for a little over a year and have sent it back to the mfg at least three times complaining about the softness of the photos...I have even challenged them to use the camera and send me their best photos and they refused.

It might be me I don't know I have repeatedly asked others photographers to use my camera in order to help me improve my technique and both have agreed that I was doing everything necessary to get a good photo but the photos where still soft. So it might be that my Complementry Metal Oxide Silicon is just bad. I really can't say. But to answer your question yes the original was some magnitude softer than you see here.

[Edited 2004-06-16 23:52:33]
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Skymonster
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:56 am

OK, then I think that's what's causing your problems... The very limited artifacts that can just about be detected don't smack of jpeg compression to me, and that's really confirmed by what you tell me about your processing. I'd be interested to know what unsharp mask settings you are using (please note its late here in the UK so I won't see your response tonight) but I suspect that there's some problem with the sharpening process, maybe originated from an overly soft original.

For what its worth (and I know this will be no real consolation for you) a friend of mine has a 10D and has just sent it back to Canon because he continually gets images that are way too soft!

Andy
There are old pilots and there are bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:59 am

 
SuperHornet
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:06 am

I have been seriously contemplating getting a Nikon D70 as a replacement with a Nikon Zoom telephoto AF VR Zoom 80-400 mm f/4.5-5.6 but I am a little shy about trading problems of softness for color. Does anyone have anything to say about this possible combination? Or would anyone like to purchase a slightly used Canon 10d?

Best price I can find on the D70 is $999.00 at B&H photo.
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wietse
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:37 am

SH,

Trust us, it really is not the camera or lens. When I saw you were applying 100% sharpening DURING conversion, that scared the hell out of me. One of the things you really shouldnt do! I wont bother you with any advice, listen to Eduard (IL76), he definately knows what he is talking about.

With the equipment you have, you should not have problems at all...

Wietse
Wietse de Graaf
 
Marco_Polo
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:23 am

Not to jump to conclusion about what you did but it looks like you have over done the noise reduction in photoshop using Noise ---> Median. Whatever process you have done you seems leave the aircraft un-touched and Median the sky including all orsome of the vapor effects. I can see some parts of the aircraft that "Noise -----> Median" tool has effected it. If so you might replay with the Median values.

If you did not use this method, please kindly dis-regard this post.

Cheers - Jay
 
ckw
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:50 am

Regarding the softness - it does seem that some 10Ds/lens combinations are affected by focus problems. This has been fairly conclusively documented over on Dpreview, and while many user complaints can be written off as "user error" this issue does appear to have some basis in fact.

The first thing to determine is whether the lens or camera is at fault. You'll need a 2nd lens, a tripod and a test target. Compare results using AF and MF with both lenses. If both lenses consitently mis-focus on AF, the camera needs adjustment, and should be returned to Canon (with the images and test procedure as evidence). If only one lens shows a problem, then it is the lens that needs adjusting. If, in this test, you get perfect results, then you will have to accept that perhaps your technique is at fault.

Cheers,

Colin
Colin K. Work, Pixstel
 
hisham
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:20 am

I totally agree with Colin. Some body-lens combinations just don't work. Even different samples of the same model may behave differently.
My Canon 10D had focus problems with the Canon 70-200/4. The same combination works just fine for other people.
Now I'm using a Canon 80-200/2.8 with excellent results. I suggest you try a different lens.

Hisham.
 
Dehowie
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 9:22 am

Superhornet
What lens are you using with the 10D???
That in itself may reveal some of the softness.
Darren
2EOS1DX,EF14.2.8LII,17TS,85/1.2,16-35L,24-70LII,24L,70-200F2.8LII,100-400,300/400/500/800L
 
paulinbna
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RE: Be Bold

Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:24 pm

I might be wrong but does 7.1 and 1/1600 sound like he was shooting at a high ISO. I never get that kind of shutter speed at 7.1 with same background and general aircraft color it is more like 1/400 or lower.

And you also said that you cropped it down to 1800 that is almost half the picture. My 10D 100-400 L IS combo does not do that well with small targets like that.

And one last thing my pictures all come out very soft from the camera.
Canon 50D user; 100-400 MM L IS 10-22 MM, 60MM Macro
 
Craigy
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RE: Be Bold

Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:18 am

Without seeing the shutter and aperture values, like Paulinba, I was already thinking high ISO.

I suspect that it was either ISO 400, or ISO 200 with underexposure.


Craig.

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