bigphilnyc
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Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:00 am

I was at JFK all day with several folks, but when everyone left mid-afternoon, it was just Art Brett, his wife Anne, and myself enjoying JFK.

We were at one location next to a field for 13L and R arrivals when a couple of Soccer Moms pulled up to us and asked us why we were taking photos of airplanes. We explained our actions and they seemed somewhat satisfied with the answer and they left.

The Bretts and I then changed locations (to Bayswater, two miles or so away), and after a minute, some guy walked up to us. It turns out someone saw us at our previous location and called this man (who said he was ground secuirty for JetBlue), and we were followed to our current spot (in a public state park). We again explained our actions and he smiled, seemed pleased and left after I gave him my business card, saying he was at first worried and now felt a lot better. Weird but, whatever.

About 20 minutes later, four police officers (NYPD) showed up and start asking us the usual questions. We get questioned every now and again, so it's no big deal, we know the drill. In these post-9/11 times, of course people can get a little worried or concerned when people are seen taking pics of airplanes.

Usually it's just them checking our ID, running our name through the system for warrants and to see if we are on any watch-lists and then leaving us be.

This time, they escorted all three of us to the park's front gate, where another polic SUV showed up with a Seargant, where we were told to get into a police van, one officer driving my Art's truck (which was my ride for the day) to the precinct.

I was taken in first and sat down with a detective. He asked me a whole bunch of questions, and I provided him with websites that he could see examples of my work and what we do. After a while, he became pleased with the answers and then, the three of us were released, with Art and Anne not being questioned.

This was my second time being detained. The first one, last year, was a lot tougher and a lot longer with a lot more attitude and attempted intimidation from Suffolk County Police (if you folks remember).

Personally, I just hate it that when I want to go out and practice my very legal passion, that I have to look over my shoulder as though I'm a criminal I my own hometown where I pay my taxes. Where when I go back to a location, the local fishermen near the water who know our faces and wave to me look at me and my fdriends as "the people who get dragged away by cops in a van with lights and sirens on" (yes, the flashing lights were on, with the cops "woop woop"-ing through intersections.

It is unfortunate that the same place that I once enlisted in the US Navy to defend my land from acts like terrorism, is where I get accused and treated like a terrorist myself.

It is unfortunate that this has to happen these days. But such is the modern life of a photographer post-9/11, aviation or not.

-Phil
Phil Derner Jr.
 
JeffM
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:22 am

Wow Phil, sorry to hear about all of that. But I think you summed it up nicely in the end of your post.

But look on the bright side... at least they put the lights on and the "whoop whoop" for you guys!  Big grin It would have been a drag to have to have sat in traffic.

-Jeff
 
JohnJ
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:58 am

Scary story, Phil. I've been out to Bayswater on a number of occasions and it's very disturbing to hear of your treatment in light of the fact that you were in a state park, which is VERY public property. Bayswater is one JFK location I wouldn't expect to be hassled - Costco is private property, the soccer field on the 22L approach is, I believe, part of a school and it wouldn't surprise me to get hassled there. But not Bayswater. Sounds like you handled the situation very well. It would have been difficult to keep from losing one's temper in a situation like that.
 
User avatar
eksath
Crew
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:34 pm

Phil,

Am glad it wasn't any worse. Still it sucks and it is very unfortunate that it has come down to this.

I am afraid taking of pictures of planes is no longer a leisure hobby. It is heading down the road to being another illegal activity. ;-(

So far my experiences have been rather innocious compared to yours. I did get stopped by TSA at BOS but it was over after a mere review of my pictures.

regards,

Suresh
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
Dazed767
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:57 pm

WOW, seems I called you today at a good time today then haha. Give it time Phil, I'm sure at some point all of NYPD will know who you guys are  Big grin
 
SuperHornet
Posts: 111
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 12:59 pm

I have empathy for you experience and have been question and asked to move from different locations several times. My suggestion is and this is what I did is that the next time you are confronted volunteer for a security check if the police will give you some kind of badge. I had to do this and it has worked out pretty well even when I am approached by security that I don’t know. If you at least have some names of other security people that will vouch for you they generally leave you alone. Realistically in places like NYC, LA and around military bases and facilities it is naive to believe that these areas are not be watched however if you can show the locals that you are a long time resident with no criminal record or extreme political affiliations. I would start to look for constructive means to resolve this issue with your local authorities. If they are not helpful or understanding remember they have to have probable cause to detain you and it doesn’t sound like they had that cause particularly if you where in a public park. If they continue to harass you I would take it to the news media and let the authorities and media slug it out your right to peaceful assembly. I suspect you can constructively resolve this issue (I was able to) and won’t have to go to the extreme which is protecting your constitutional right.
Watch the ball
 
QantasA332
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:00 pm

How annoying! Is it too much for authorities around the world to simply have people apply for recognition of being aviation enthusiasts, screen them, do whatever checks are necessary, and issue some sort of I.D.? That would probably be the ideal (but rather unrealistic) solution to stop continual and unfair heckling...

Cheers,
QantasA332
 
JeffM
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:14 pm

"Is it too much for authorities around the world to simply have people apply for recognition of being aviation enthusiasts, screen them, do whatever checks are necessary, and issue some sort of I.D.? "

Why should they go to the expense? Or are you willing to pay the few thousand dollars a simple background check can cost? And, what would stop a terrorist from applying for one?
 
QantasA332
Posts: 1473
Joined: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:47 pm

RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:32 pm

I understand that something like that would be unfeasible (hence my saying so in the last sentence of my above post), but annoyances like that shouldn't just keep happening! At some point aviation enthusiasts have to be recognized, somehow...

Cheers,
QantasA332
 
cicadajet
Posts: 816
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:34 pm

Sounds like fun Phil.

Thats what you get for taking pictures of "soft targets".

Like NJ Gov McGreevey says in those ads all over NY radio everyday, "if you see something suspicous", or "even if you just have a feeling in your gut" call the cops.

Pretty serious stuff.. I'm sure his lover thought so too, put in charge of "homeland security" at taxpayer expense.  Insane

Kerry promises even tougher homeland security... wonder if they'll get around to screening air cargo or inspecting more than 5% of shipping containers, increasing NEST to sufficient levels, or realizing chain link fences are feeble protection at airports, before every spotter and rail fan is detained in our area.
One can only hope....

You have to take note of this one below:

http://talk.nycsubway.org/perl/read?subtalk=700096

They were standing in a public place, took a picture of a building, a plane happened to be flying by to LGA. The picture looks like an aircraft flying into building. I guess.

Cops come by and say you can't take pictures (of anything any time
anywhere anymore?) and before you know it, because of that picture,
they are detained by all kinds of polite people from all kinds of
enforcement/security agencies . . . for hours . . . and in the end they have to
turn over their CF cards or delete ALL their digital photos.
 
chris78cpr
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:50 pm

Bad luck Phil! Its a shame it happened, i hope it doesnot deter you from producing some more good images! Seeing yours and the NYC crews shots make me really excited about coming over!!!

Chris
5D2/7D/1D2(soon to be a 1Dx) 17-40L/24-105L/70-200F2.8L/100-400L/24F1.4LII/50F1.2L/85F1.2LII
 
KLGAviation
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:00 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:22 pm

I've stopped spotting on my own for that very reason. But isn't that what they want??

I think it's time for NYers to get permits or some other widely recognized ID card that'll show everything cops would need to know as well as what exactly we ARE doing. A confrontation would never need to go past the standard questions. Anyone ever pursued this?

Chris
There is a fine line between a picture and a photo. The latter seems to be disappearing.
 
User avatar
Ryan h
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:36 pm

After hearing this it shows that cops sometimes don't use the stuff between their ears.
Stories like this have put me off coming anywhere near america.
Sure they have to check what you are doing, but this is extreme. I can make people resent authority.
South Australian Spotter www.ryanhothersall.net
 
futterman
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:54 pm

One thing that still seems odd to me is why you had to be publically embarassed by riding in a police van to the precinct, when all they wanted to do was ask some questions--which could've very easily been done on the side of the road.


Anyone ever pursued this?


I'm against working out an ID card program--gives them too much control of 'our' turf.

There is something in the works, though...
What the FUTT?
 
aagold
Posts: 542
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 8:56 pm

What fun your adopted (aviation) Dad and you can have in a day  Smile But, did you have to expose your adopted (aviation) Mom to the embarrassing and humiliating experience of being escorted (not hauled) off to the local precinct? You should be ashamed of yourself. And just to get even with you I'm going to show you the best picture from the day. And no one can accuse me of a plug fest since it's not on A.net and never will be Big grin



Now I know you're wondering why that's the best picture from the day. Remember when the officers asked us to accompany them to the park entrance to meet with their sergeant for a few questions? ... that was just before they asked up to hop in the van and cruise to the precinct with the "woop-woop" going through the intersections and that woman officer driving my SUV. I went over to one of the officers, the nicer one, pointed down to the end of 13R where the Air France Cargo 74 was lining up for departure and asked if we could wait a minute so that we could get the photo of that aircraft departing. I believe I told him we'd been waiting specifically for that one. Of course the response was an immediate "no" with no real thought at all as I expected. So I packed up some stuff, gathered my belongings and checked that Anne had gathered hers too ... killing enough time to make sure the AF started rolling. About the same time we started walking and I kept turning and looking at her progress along 13R. At the appropriate time I stopped, turned and aimed my camera at her as he was climbing out. With the extreme low light she had trouble focusing and maybe my being a bit apprehensive with the officers telling me to keep walking I still got the picture. Of course it's blurry as all Hell, but who cares. I stopped and took the picture which was well within my rights.

You guys can feel free to click on it and I assure you I'll keep jumping the imaginary hit counter in my head. LOL

Wouldn't trade it for anything son Big grin

Art
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:30 pm

Sorry to hear it Phil/Art etc....

This is the reason I have only uploaded 180 ish pics......Maybe just 12 in the last 3 yrs (since 9/11) I am sick of the stares and glares of neighbors and then a smile and then 10 minutes later I meet a cop or two :-(

G-d damn Osama.....
F&*# HIM!
and Osama if you're reading this, you're a peice sh*%

Mark Garfnkel
 
Liskatze
Posts: 41
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RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 9:44 pm

Art,

it's really a pity you couldn't get this picture in the usual way. Two weeks ago I've been there at Bayfront Park together with you and three other photographers, couldn't imagine that there will be problems like this a few days later.

In Los Angeles in August there was a similar situation with another photographer on Imperial Hill who was treatened by Homeland Security in a unbelievable manner.

I'll come back to the US in a few days, stay in ORD for a longer time and thought about buying a ticket to JFK for a day or two, the pics I've taken there at the soccerfield and Bayfront Park together with you were fascinating. But now, after reading this experiences, I'll give up this idea.

Anne
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:36 pm

Sad to hear law enforcement has so much power, yet you dont have to be very smart to be a cop. The funny thing is none of these guys heralded as heroes will ever be able to stop a terrorist, but whatever.. great job guys for bothering aircraft photographers, keep it up.

Good one Art, good one. You did what you had to do.

 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:32 pm

"Sad to hear law enforcement has so much power, yet you dont have to be very smart to be a cop."

One of the most ignorant statements I have read on here in a long time.
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

RE: Detained By Nypd

Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:35 pm

Futt, the reason, as they explained, that we were taken in and not questioned there at the scene, was because there were only four detectives on duty at the station, and they were guarding a prisoner.

All I have to say that Art is a fiesty one. It's awesome. I was glad to experience this with my aviation-Dad.

It's time for an ID card, I think.

-Phil
Phil Derner Jr.
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:22 am

"Sad to hear law enforcement has so much power, yet you dont have to be very smart to be a cop."

One of the most ignorant statements I have read on here in a long time.

Jeff, you probably shouldn't meet my sister then  Nuts
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:55 am

"Jeff, you probably shouldn't meet my sister then .."

Eric, I think you know me better then that. I don't take very many things personally, especially anything from here. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, you know I won't hold back mine.  Big grin

Now get back to school.
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:52 am

Now get back to school.

I only have one class M/W/F, and it's a 9-10am Big grin Not much of this thing you call "School" happening here  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
KLGAviation
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:00 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:05 am

I still go for the ID card... in reality it'd make our lives a whole lot easier AND the cops lives easier.

I'm against working out an ID card program--gives them too much control of 'our' turf.

Well, they already have the control, so in my opinion we should make the best out of it. I wouldn't mind having to "punch in and punch out" whenever I was going out. That's why I love TNCM so much... NO authorities! Finally somewhere where I don't have to constantly scan for police or worried eyes. LAX was the same deal. I'd be at the In n' Out and I'd see a parade of byciclist cops going by and would immediately stuff my camera in it's bag.

All I want is worry free spotting.

Chris
There is a fine line between a picture and a photo. The latter seems to be disappearing.
 
LGA777
Posts: 954
Joined: Fri Jul 04, 2003 12:46 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:31 am

Phil, Art,and Anne, as others have mentioned here. very sorry to hear of your experience ! I do have two questions, the first is once you where released did the officers/detectives say anything about it was okay to go back and resume shooting or was that not mentioned ?
The second question is as they now have information on you guys. if questioned in the future by officers from that precinct would the process be minimized I hope ?

Regards Ron Peel
 
Speedbird2025
Posts: 273
Joined: Thu May 13, 2004 9:17 pm

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:07 am

Man sorry to hear about your story Phil. It sure is unfortunate that spotters like us can't enjoy our hobby as we used to. HPD is always on the look out here at IAH and a few spotters have even had encounters with them as well. It is a real bummer :-(

--Nate
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:08 am

As for us going back, the detective that questioned me gave both myself and Art his card, and told us that when returning to that spot (Bayswater), to stop by this precinct and tell the desk who we are and that we were interviewed by Detective So-and-So and that we will be there.

As for future stops, I'm sure my name has been added to several lists by now, as I've been questioned by officers within three or four jurisdictions already. I don't believe that these officers can find that I've been checked already by typing my name into the computers in their police cars, and to be honest, I don't think I would want that to be such easy-to-get knowledge about me on my record.

When the police come up to us, they usually check our ID, running it in their comptuer to make sure that I have no warrants out and that I am not on any other kinds of watch-lists. I don't think it says much else in terms of my record and prior stoppages unless there is anything still outstnading. I believe that is a violation of privacy law in a standard police stop.

-Phil
Phil Derner Jr.
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:09 am

Hey Ron et al,

Would the process be minimilized?? Well, considering what Phil and I went through for THREE hours with SCPD, on July 4, 2002, you would think the NY area enforcement would have us in a database where they could cross reference us. Quite unlikely considering what occurred yesterday.

Being that this is Phil's second time being detained and considering they did it again, I guess the info from our initial encounter is was all for nothing.

ID cards are an idea.

Art, Anne and Phil (and our surprise visitor, Henrik!), it was great to see you guys again. I really enjoyed spending the morning relaxing on such a wonderful day and enjoying what we love. I'm sorry that the day had to end like that and I am sure you know that I TRULY can relate and feel for you.

On the upside, well, our offer on the house was accepted! So there's a bit of good news!
Highheels said hello and we'll come next time!

mario
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
aagold
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:32 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:25 am

Ron,

by the time we left the park the Sun was already down to the point where we were shooting on fumes. So asking to go back was not even a possibility.

Mario,

Ah, shucks, you missed all the fun. Great news on the house. Congratulations. Now you gotta spend all that money you've been saving.

Art
 
martinairyyz
Posts: 1188
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:42 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 5:37 am

One of the most ignorant statements I have read on here in a long time.



Huh?!? Maybe not tottaly well worded but I do agree that if a policeman doesn't think or even listen, some highschool drop out can easily take his place.
Sorry about the experience, Phil, Anne, and Art!
Chelsea Football Club supporter.
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:04 am

A friend of mine from Poland was visiting US few weeks ago. He went out for 22L approach at JFK where after 20 minutes got detained by 3 agents in unmarked car. He spent around 3 hours at Police station being questioned by detectives who claimed they never heard about such a strange hobby as spotting. Everything ended up well and they gave him a ride back to an airport where he took a plane back to Europe.

Daniel

[Edited 2004-09-13 23:06:15]
 
patroni
Posts: 1372
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 1999 7:49 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 6:16 am

@ Danny:

Everything ended up well and they gave him a ride back to an airport where he took a plane back to Europe.

Sorry, could you please clarify that?

a) Was he anyway on his way home or
b) did he wish to leave the USA as fast as possible after this encounter or
c) was he deported?

b) and c) sound quite unrealistic, but given the current amount of paranoia I wouldn't be THAT surprised any more....

Cheers,
Tom
 
vir380
Posts: 484
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 12:45 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:32 am

Funny ...... same pretty much the same happened to me today .... only at PVD !

Stood in the open ... on a main road when we were maybe reported by someone with a very itchy phone finger ....

2 cops pulled up 1 in front of our car and 1 behind , both lights flashing !

In all fairness the guys were great ... just following up on the call they had , they after various checks on us both clear , but then airport security arrived and were a little less understanding by the looks of it , but after about 45 minutes of question after question they too had nothing really to go on .... then the airport security maybe looking for something on me ( being from the UK and maybe unable to find much detail ) decided to call in the FBI .... this was getting better by the second.... i was by this time getting understandably edgy .... after again some time of waiting and generally getting a suntan it was decided that i had done nothing wrong apart from scare some by passer with a camera were allowed to leave.

Now yes they have a job to do but it did look like maybe airport security were perhaps a little over zealous.

We left the original 2 cops with a hand shake and a hope to see you in better circumstance's , while the security left with one flat tyre  Smile

but that for me was the days shooting for me at PVD

this is the cut short version the rest i could write a book on but maybe some other time ..

To be honest at the end of the ordeal we were all best buddies , laughing and joking with each other , but this im afraid is what we more and more are facing in our hobby !

just thought id share that anyways..

regards Tony

Moved away from this lost website to better things !
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:59 am

Eric, I think you know me better then that. I don't take very many things personally, especially anything from here. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, you know I won't hold back mine

haha why? were u turned down applying to be a cop? Is that why you view them as geniuses? Actually I don't care, but don't hold back your STRONG patriotic opinions, they can give people a laugh or two  Wink/being sarcastic


 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:49 am

"haha why? were u turned down applying to be a cop? "

Haha. No. I did laugh seeing the word "genius" in any post of yours though.  Big grin But I know and have worked with plenty of them to know your statement and the one from the little 13 year old boy named Martin is pure ignorance. I hope the next time you need one, they are all studying.  Smile
 
cancidas
Posts: 3985
Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2003 7:34 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:06 am

jeez, that's a first! usually NYPD is a lot calmer. maybe they're still hyped up from the RNC. anyhow, glad you all came out ok from this. also, i hope this doesn't create a negative image about the PD in your eyes. they're doing thier jobs, although the were a bit drastic in thier ways.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 9:52 am

Yes, NYPD is usually MUCH more calm. Keep in mind if was the day after the three year anniversary of 9/11.

I think the situation could have been handled a lot better, but I can't blame them until we see some big changes in government and the law. This whole anti-terrorism movement on this grand level is still very young and it's new to everyone, even the police.

Again, I don't like it, but no MAJOR lines have been crossed just yet.

-Phil
Phil Derner Jr.
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:13 am

I hope the next time you need one, they are all studying.

Funny cause one of the guys my sister works with told me and I quote: "The next time you need help, forget about us, call your drug dealer."

Anyway, I think it sucks that we have to put up with this, so far here in DRO it's just been a bunch of farmer hicks driving by on the little dirt road giving me wierd looks. But then again, I've only been there twice, and each time for only about 20 minutes while I had other business at the airport (working on getting a job with Mesa).

I don't think it'll be a problem for me unless I wind up on the bad side of iron bars.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Danny
Posts: 3714
Joined: Thu Apr 25, 2002 3:44 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:06 am

"Sorry, could you please clarify that?

a) Was he anyway on his way home or
b) did he wish to leave the USA as fast as possible after this encounter or
c) was he deported?"


a) is the closest to correct. He was leaving on that day anyway - just before it decided to take a few pics. He told me that he was questioned at some local Police - not NYPD. In the end police officers were nice and gave him a phone number to call before next spotting and inform about intentions.
 
JohnJ
Posts: 1362
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2000 5:01 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:04 pm

"Funny ...... same pretty much the same happened to me today .... only at PVD !"

PVD is (or was....) the one bastion of sanity in this new world order. I've been there a number of times and shot openly, with no trouble whatsoever. My favorite spot is the roof of the parking garage, which is bristling with security cameras. My first time there, I expected security to arrive on the scene within minutes of my setting up camp. I stayed for well over an hour with no trouble at all. A second visit yielded the same results. Hope my next PVD experiences don't mirror yours!!
 
FlyingColors
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:15 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 1:11 pm

Phil,

Its time to turn up the heat just one notch...

Sorry folks but in light of the FACTS here the above party was violated of their civil liberties. The tactics used are deceptive and in themselves illegal.

This is a very serious crime against US citizens. Phil, the first card we need to start packing in our wallet is an ACLU card. The Patriot Act does not over-rule our constitutional rights, in a case like this.

Sure I understand you/we have to be questioned in this day and age, and even search our camera bag and being.

BUT--- after the cops ID you and having checked out, then you are to be left about your business, in an incontestable public area. If they wanted to take you for a ride you MUST ask WHAT IS THE CHARGE? "Their is no charge, so there is nothing more to talk about, good day sir"

In addition while 5 plus cops wasted time and resources: how many drug dealers,hookers and child abusers were passed twice along Mott Ave during this episode?? Too many!

The situation is getting worse and I see no way of slowing down taking pics and spotting.

Lesson learned: be nice, but be firm. We must defend our rights.

PS- last month I was told to "get lost" from the photo holes at MIA by two cops. 5 others in my company vanished without question. I decided to educate the 2 gun slingers, telling them there is a sign on the other side of this fence saying this is the sole spot for photography. They replied "those are for the airport employees to take pics" ?!
HUH?!?
If your an employee your on the inside of the fence! They radioed it in and guess what, "have a nice day"

And I was left with a nice sunset.

Mike  Angry
Moon chaser!
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 2:19 pm

"Sorry folks but in light of the FACTS here the above party was violated of their civil liberties."

Mike, do you know the "facts" as you say from the Police Officer's side? All of the details that led them to drop what they were doing and act in the manner Phil described? Or are you just going by what Phil and Art have given us. Seems like we have only heard one side of the story. I'm fairly sure they would not decide to go through all that because they had nothing better to do. I did not see where Phil or Art mentioned the reason as being the Patriot Act as you mentioned.

And just out of curiosity, what civil liberty were they denied? Were they told they cannot take photographs from that location ever again? Maybe I missed that part.

You are right though, someone should have asked if they were being charged with something, but from what I read, I don't think anyone did. Had that happened, I doubt there would have been a ride to the precinct, or they would have to have charged them with something.

-Jeff
 
aagold
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:32 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 7:52 pm

I almost hate to really get involved in this as I know someone will always have some alternate opinion and start to take the thread to a place it doesn't belong. Most of us have had our experiences with the authorities over the past few years and we've learned from them, or at least we've tried to. But the situation seems to be worsening and it's about time we learn exactly what our rights are so that when we are confronted we can legally and rightfully defend them.

Let's put the incident into perspective. As the police officers approached here's what they would have seen.

Anne and I sitting in lawn chairs with a third lawn chair sitting empty and Phil standing nearby. Other than the lawnchairs and a can of bug spray our only other possessions were our cameras and camera bags. Within a hundred feet either side of us there were at least 30 fishermen fishing at the edge of the water. And, by the way, this is a public park.

Do I resent the officres coming and questioning us? No. When they arrived they asked for our ID and we quickly responded. I handed the officer both a driver's license and a business card showing that I do aviation phogography. We politely responded to their questions. I explained that I had been previously checked out by the Nassau County (adjoining county) police and offered a detective's name and phone number for them to call. They didn't even want to hear it.

After a few minutes huddle off to the side they came over and asked us to accompany them to the park's entrance under the pretense that their sergeant had some questions for us there. They didn't imply that we had a choice in this matter. When I asked for a minute to get a shot of the AF 744 that was already lined up on the runway I was denied.

We accompanied them to the park entrance where the van was parked along with two other police cars. No sooner than we arrived and they are asking us to get into the van and go to the precinct to be questioned by a detective. I didn't want to leave my SUV unattended in the neighborhood for who knows how long (the last time this happened to Phil it was hours). I asked if I could follow them. The answer no. When I balked at what was going on an officer turned to me and said: "You know I could put you in hand cuffs right now?" We finally agreed that the female officer would drive my SUV to the station with my wife, and that Phil and I would accompany the two officers in the van. And, btw, we were told we needed to go to the station because they didn't have enough manpower for the dective to come down and question us. When we arrived there were many in the station so I'm not sure how much manpower they needed at the station.

At the station the dectective took Phil away for no more than 15 minutes while Anne and I sat near the desk. We waited for him to return and when he did he indicated that I would be next. Then the detective came and basically said we could go.

At this point we had a discussion which I found enlightening. The detective suggested we stop by the station and advise them when we are intending to go there again. I told him that that was absolutely useless. Unless you have someone's name that they recognize they aren't going to comply or be willing to assist in any manner. So just stopping by and telling them that you would be there would be nothing more than raising a red flag to them that I'm sure would end up getting you checked out. With that the detective gave us his card. That should help, but I'm not sure how much.

In our conversation I mentioned that the officer told me he could put me in handcuffs. The detective looked very surprised by that. And what followed was even more surprising to me. I can't quote him exactly, but the way I read it is that we did not have to leave the park and accompany them anywhere. That if we had told them no they could not have forced us to go with them. And that bodes the question ... what are our legal rights? Could we have refused to go and be within our rights? We've all heard that the Patriot Act infringes on our rights to some extent and grants them additional authority, but how much? Those are questions I'd like to know the answer to.

I believed that we could refuse to accompany them, but was unsure of what the consequences might be. Had we refused would they have accepted it willingly and left. Or would they have found someway to then arrest us, the only alternative they would have to get us to comply, and escalate this to an entirely different level for everyone.

Bottom line is, when they checked my and Anne's id, they would have found that we have lived in the same house for 30 years, had driver's licenses issued by the State of NJ that were issued in the 1960s, never had any dealings with the law at all other than a sporadic traffic fine our entire lifetime. Plus the fact it was obvious (as we were sitting in plain view) that we had nothing on us or in our belongings that could possibly harm anyone or anything, that is, if you don't count the insects we intended to repel with the bug spray. And, with that, they should have wished us a good day and left us in the park. Period.

The freedoms afforded us as citizens and legal residents of the United States are very precious indeed. Anne and I have traveled the world extensively and seen that many don't offer their citizens the freedoms we have. Any violation of those freedoms should not be tolerated and we have a right to demand them. You know, on the way home the other night I was talking to Anne and told her that had a terrorists been at the park with a camera taking pictures, stopped by the police and questioned as we were, our legal system would have afforded him the same rights as us. And rightly so. I do believe our legal system was founded on the principle of "innocent until proven guilty." And that's the way it should be.

And, one final point. Another thing I expect from our authorities is to be treated with the respect that I, in turn, show them. This episode was handled in a respectful manner, but other encounters I've had have not been. And I resent that. I resent being treated like a criminal for no apparent reason. I undertand the authorities have a difficult and life threatening job at times, but that isn't any reason to treat our citizens without respect when the situation is obviously not dangerous or threatening.

Sorry for being so long with my two cens worth.

Art
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:27 pm

as long as you have smart****s such as JeffM who want to make excuses for the many bored, unpolite officers out there in need of better human relation skills and information about the aviation hobby.. there will be many more unjustified questioning and ruined afternoons in store for many of you.

And just out of curiosity, what civil liberty were they denied? Were they told they cannot take photographs from that location ever again? Maybe I missed that part

Well you're missing more than that part, more like the whole picture. I guess that was too complicated to understand huh?.. now that's ironic you'ld tell someone to go back to school  Nuts

Probably that "13 year old kid" has better manners than someone 4 times his age. Your coming in here and don't add anything to the thread either. I mean if you feel you need to be rude go take it out on your wife or your lover or somebody else

xxxxxxxx

He was not told to photograph there ever again only because that'd be too obvious they're violating his rights. However he was denied the opportunity to photograph THAT DAY. The shot he came in to take. You too wouldn't be very happy about that, so cut the crap. Luckly these officials ran into a good group of guys who only wanted to be left alone enjoying their peaceful hobby and not interested in arguing with the officers or threatening legal action against unnecessary detaining and interfering with their very legal hobby.
 
tappan
Posts: 1478
Joined: Sat Oct 23, 1999 9:30 pm

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:32 pm

Didn''t they see Phil in the Concorde video?
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 10:57 pm

"make excuses for the many bored, unpolite officers out there in need of better human relation skills and information about the aviation hobby.. "

Don't be a jackass. I made no excuse, your too blind to understand there most likely is more to the story then what Art and Phil tell us.
Art's last post brings out good points. What rights do we have? Your loud mouthed ranting doesn't do anyone any good. But it's your opinion, I have my own.

What "pearl of wisdom" have you brought to this thread Mario?
 
bigphilnyc
Posts: 3874
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2002 10:43 pm

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:34 pm

Yes, we need to learn exactly what our rights are, and what we cna do in these situaitons.

Something certainly needs to be done so that we don't have to go through anything like this again. It's a waste of my time and my tax dollars if there is a lack of communication preventing law enforcement agencies from knowing that I've been checked out dozens of tiems already, and even previously detained.

This is where I think an ID card comes in. Granted, there are not enough aviation photographers to warrant a whole new form of ID be invented, but maybe some other kind of press pass for those who are not working for the press but are legitimate photographers, as those who take photos of architecture and other forms of transportation get stopped just the same here in NYC.

I hate getting a nervous feeling in my stomach every time I leave my house to take photos in fear of being detained.

I don't like looking around for cops while I'm out there as though I'm doing something illegal.

I don't like it when an officer uses the term "potential terrorist" around me, not knowing that had I not had the back problems I have now, I'd almost surely be on the other side of the world fighting or dying in the US Navy for the rights that we are trying to exercise here everyday.

"Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for temporary safety deserve niether."

-Phil
Phil Derner Jr.
 
miamix707
Posts: 3848
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 2:22 pm

RE: Detained By Nypd

Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:41 pm

In addition while 5 plus cops wasted time and resources: how many drug dealers,hookers and child abusers were passed twice along Mott Ave during this episode?? Too many!

exactly, Mike you have the right idea. I know it's difficult but when one gets stopped, take a deep breath, compose yourself and refresh the officer's mind letting him know he's checking the wrong people while the terrorists and criminals are out there doing their things and those he won't catch in plain view. If they seem arrogant you could also let them know how much of a wasted tax payer money they are, having nothing to do, and bothering innocent individuals.

Let me clarify I have great respect for those polite, helpful and honest police officers out there. Many of them put their life on the line daily to help and protect citizens, not something everyone would do.

Mike something similar happened to me and a british photographer last year in the MIA photo holes. This guy who works on the ramp comes over, parks his truck behind us and says we have to leave saying he had enough authority. Seeing I wasn't going to leave he said he would call the cops. I didnt have my camera anyways so I left when the British guy decided to leave without asking for a reason (there is a tourist who'll probably never be back) I read this guy's badge name and wrote it down right in front of him. I should have reported him, but never got around to do it.

Some other time a younger guy around 18 or 20 stops right in front of the photo holes and tells me, since I was closer to the fence that we can't be there. I politely told him that it was obvious he was "new" because photographers have been here taking pictures for longer than he's been alive. He got the point, smiled and left.

People need to get used to see many aircraft spotters otherwise they'll call police who are often as clueless and uninformed as they are.

Don't let no one fool you with freedom this freedom that. This is not really a "free" country, we are "freer" than other societies, not completely a free country either. I could cite many examples as to why this is so, but one related to the aviation hobby, forget the right to peaceful assembly as an aviation enthusiast. Not in the US.

Don't let anyone fool you saying we are much more secure now.

-Less than 5% of shipping containers are routinely inspected.

-The other day a woman shipped herself from CUBA! inside a box as aircraft cargo without getting caught.

You know security sucks when, while all these things are happening law enforcement resources are being used to bother and detain innocent people.

It's interesting how the authorities view photographers and spotters as such a threat when the other day a girl going to school here in Miami was raped by someone who had been arrested 18 times! This individual was still free on the streets. Where is the law?, where were the cops??

sorry for the rant  Big grin

 
jakbar
Posts: 423
Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2003 3:47 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Wed Sep 15, 2004 12:49 am

Art (and others)...

Here's some light reading for you: http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12126&c=207

After you've made your way through all of the information/links on that page, you can click on the "Back to the ACLU's Safe and Free page" link at the bottom of the page and it will take you to another informative page.

I hope this is helpful.

Josh

P.S. - Futt...you should read this too. I know you're interested in this stuff...
 
FlyingColors
Posts: 72
Joined: Thu Dec 18, 2003 3:15 am

RE: Detained By Nypd

Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:52 am

Art and Mario, very good points and rants here, yet sad.

Well guys looks like we need to sacrifice a spotting day/slide show or two to seriously pinpoint our rights on the above, together.

I simply refuse to be treated like a second class citizen, and resent comments like being a "terrorist helper". Actually, now that I mentioned it, a second class citizen would be an improvement!

Perhaps we need to all be hauled into headquarters in handcuffs. This could give us great exposure to this situation. Even you Art would love having your pic in the paper, in handcuffs, with all your pals! It may snap some sense into the authorities and perhaps the ill educated public. Wow, what a story in the paper, and stench all the way to city hall and then some.

If that's what it takes, or part of it, so be it. I'm fed up. Trust me, I'm not going to look for trouble, but it always comes our way. Always.
So come on guys, get off your ass, stop wining and take an intelligent stand.

As a collective body we will have a voice.

Mike
Moon chaser!

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