Zander
Topic Author
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 7:16 am

Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:55 am

Hi all,

Got a baddouble rejection today which I really can't understand. http://airliners.net/procphotos/rejphoto.main?filename=4R-ADF-2.jpg
The rejection must be referring to the photo below.

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Photo © Alexander Jonsson


Don't tell me you are only able to upload one photo from each sequence, because that can't be true. I have seen many photographers lately which have managed to get more than one photo accepted from the very same sequence.

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Photo © Darren Howie
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Photo © Darren Howie



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Photo © Philippe Noret
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Photo © Philippe Noret


Here are two examples, all photos are great and I am not trying to criticize the photographers in any way, understand me right here.
I don't seem to understand this rejection reason at all...

Alex
 
IL76
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:57 am

Here we go again...  Insane
 
ChrisH
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:44 am

Two photos of different angles usually get in. Reupload or appeal? It should get in.


"Here we go again... "

That's the spirit. :F
what seems to be the officer, problem?
 
wietse
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:54 am

"Here we go again... "

Sorry, but I agree.

Regarding the examples you show:

Darrens shots; One is a full 3/4 front shot, the other is an extreme closeup of the airplane departing.

Philippe's shots; A special colorscheme, the front shot and the rear shot together show the entire paintscheme.

I just dont think that there is enough difference between your shots to warrant having them both online. But you did pick the right one to upload first! Great shot!
Wietse de Graaf
 
Zander
Topic Author
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 6:26 am

"Here we go again... "
Unfortunately I had to, but I really think this is a problem even if you (IL76 and Wietse) don't have that kind of problem probably!?

I can't really agree with your arguments since I have had a lot of baddoubles during the last year so this was just the final cut.
And yes, I have had both special liveries shot from the front/rear as well as closeups etc. but that doesn't really help.
There is a lot more examples of baddoubles in the base, but I just took the time to show those two this time.

That's why I really can't understand this rejection but I am not expecting any good answer on this because it doesn't seem like there is one or am I wrong?

Alex
 
IL76
Posts: 2237
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:43 am

RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:16 am

The reason why I said that is because it's been brought up a few times already. I can understand your frustration, I have multiple shots of same aircraft myself that I would like to upload too. But I force myself into picking only one to avoid the dreaded 'baddouble' rejection.
We know there is such a rejection reason possible, so one should keep that in mind when uploading and not be surprised when a shot gets rejected as baddouble. It sucks sometimes, but this site just has this screening policy. And of course the borders between baddouble and not-baddouble is a bit vague and depends also on which screener is screening you photos; so consider yourself lucky if a pair makes it through, and a 'nice-try' for those who didn't.
Just make sure you upload your best shot first.  Smile
E
 
agd
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:11 am

Alexander,

Being a fan of your pictures for a while, I think the one that got rejected should make it. Angle is for me a lot different then your first image, but that's only my "amateur point of view"...  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


As far as I know, now, that's the moment when I'd get a bit frustrated about the situation...

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Photo © Bowen Chau



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Photo © Bowen Chau



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Photo © Bowen Chau



Not that it isn't of good quality or that they should be rejected or anything like that, but I think Sri Lankan should get more attention than AC 333s. But as the others previously said, the best thing is always to upload your best one first. And you did it perfectly with your wonderful 3/4 rotation shot!

All the best,

Alex
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eksath
Crew
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:21 am

Both are nice and both should be in the database.
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
crank
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 10:37 am

I also agree to say that both shots of the Sri Lankan 340 should be in the database. 3 shots of the same sequence however is too much, particularly when they are almost identical.
 
ManBurkert
Posts: 17
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 11:01 am

I recently expierenced a bad double rejection of a just delivered plane. So only 1 picture in the Database exisitng. The first one was rotating aircraft from the front. Rejected=> Baddouble, because I upload a second picture, picture which was slightly from behind but allready airborne. The second picture was rejected by another screener badquality.

So finally both rejected and no picture in the Database. And for sure I will not upload a second time.

Cheers

Manfred Burkert (ZSAM)
 
aagold
Posts: 542
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 12:38 pm

I really hate replying to this thread because, sadly, it's beating a dead horse. We've been through this countless times before to no avail. I really thought some issues were resolved in a bad double thread I started in January concerning a friends bad double reject. The original thread is located at ...

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/aviation_photography/read.main/116533/4/

if you'd like to reference it. Johan responded to this thread by stating:

Baddouble can only be used when the photographer has similar photos of the same aircraft already in the database (or upload queue). "Similar" is not an exact word but photo screening is not an exact science. Let's all agree upon that before I go on.

Screeners can use Badcommon if you upload photos of aircraft that we already have a large number of similar shots of.

If you upload more than one shot of the same aircraft/date/location you run a high risk of getting just one of them accepted and the rest rejected with baddouble. I do encourage you to upload more than one shot if the additional photos are of very high additional "value" (another vague word). If you upload a full side view do not expect to get a close-up of the nose or tail accepted. If you upload one take-off shot, other similar take-off shots are likely to be rejected etc. Such are the rules we've decided to adopt after years of experience here at Airliners.net. Still, if the aircraft is very rare or the shots are amazing you can get a hundred photos accepted of the same aircraft. "Rare" and "amazing" are, as always, defined by the screeners. If you disagree with them (which all of you will do at one time or another), use the appeal function and I'll have a look at them (although I've understood the appeal is working rather poorly right now, I am about to fix that).

As for the baddouble rejection pointed out by Art, I am siding with the photographer on this one. It seems this can be a case of "high additional value" as the shot is clearly very good (although I haven't seen a high-res version). It is very different from the first shot and would in my view be a valuable addition to the database. I suggest the photo is appealed (or better, re-uploaded as the appeal script is working so-so at the moment).

I will discuss the issue with the screeners.

Regards,
Johan


I walked away reading that statement and felt we had made some genuine progress along the lines of resolving the bad double issue. That is until July when I uploaded a shot that got rejected for bad double. Sorry to bore you by restating this as it was in another thread, but there were these two pictures in the database of the aircraft:


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Photo © Dietmar Schreiber
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Photo © Andy Martin - AirTeamImages



I uploaded two shots I took of this aircraft and they were accepted.


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Photo © Art Brett - AirTeamImages
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Photo © Art Brett - AirTeamImages



I later uploaded a third shot, granted taken the same day, but totally different from my two previous shots and from those existing in the database.



Andy (Skymonster), one of the screeners suggested I appeal the rejection in the thread I started about this reject, and let Johan make the final decision. I did just that. The two months it sat in the appeal queue I felt confident that it would make it onto the database. I mean there aren't many photos of that aircraft in the database and I would say it qualifies as being pretty rare. How many 721's do you see in service today? I looked back at my original bad double thread and reread what Johan wrote before appealing it. That also made me feel confident that the shot would make it onto the database.

I was wrong. Johan, to my total shock and surprise, rejected the photo stating bad double. I felt the progress I thought we'd made in January was just thrown out the door. But the bottom line is that it's his database and he can accept/reject whatever he wants for whatever reason. I just wish he'd publish guidelines we could clearly follow to avoid these disappointments. Something like: A maximum of one shot per aircraft per day, or one shot per operation (takeoff, landing, taxi, ramp, etc.) per day, or even a maximum of 'x' photos of any single aircraft. Some rule we could follow before we upload and know what we are uploading isn't a bad double. Sadly that never seems to come. In his response he actaully encouraged us to upload more than one shot if we thought the shot had "high additional value," which I thought this shot, when compared to the others, did.

I was disappointed enough in that bad double appeal rejection that I uploaded it to another site. The first time I've uploaded to another site. I, for one, am tired of beating a dead horse when, obviously, nothing seems to change.

Art

PS: I'm not complaining about the screeners in this thread. The fact that different screeners apply different rules is not their fault or responsibility to fix. The lack of definitive rule leaves them as much in the dark as we are.
 
DLKAPA
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Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:20 pm

Gentleman (and maybe the rare occaisional lady that might cruise this forum  Big grin ), I give you this:


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Photo © Eric Daniel Smith



not at all the same angle as this:


MyAviation.net photo:
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Photo © Eric Daniel Smith

And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Dehowie
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:25 pm

Hi Alex
I am with you on this one as i thinkn the angle is sufficiently different and the photo is good quality that it would not warrant a reject.
I am also with Art in that obviously there is not guidline as to what exactly is a baddouble.I personally use the if its the same day and same angle thing then don't bother.
Works most of the time.
Darren
2EOS1DX,EF14.2.8LII,17TS,85/1.2,16-35L,24-70LII,24L,70-200F2.8LII,100-400,300/400/500/800L
 
KLGAviation
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 1:25 pm

Not sure about you guys but the photos above are all excellent and I think it's foolish to reject a photo judging by another one. I'm not the type of person to find a photo by "Photographer A" and be angry to see he has another photo of the same aircraft on the same date. If they're not Identical, they're good enough for me! Big grin

Chris
There is a fine line between a picture and a photo. The latter seems to be disappearing.
 
OD720
Posts: 1856
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 6:46 am

RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:42 pm

I just had a baddouble rejection as we speak. This is the photo in the database:


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Photo © Vatche Mitilian



I took 6 or 7 excellent shots of this 747 landing and after looking to each one carefully, I picked the one which I thought was the best and it got accepted. Later though I thought there was more detail in the sequence so after giving some thought, I uploaded this one:

http://airliners.net/procphotos/rejphoto.main?filename=AF747BEY.jpg

I was almost sure that it will be rejected but I kept some hope because there's no other photo in the database of this 747 that gives the detail of the sticker. I don't mind for the rejection, I won't be appealing or re-uploading it. I guess there will be another chance, maybe next summer since the AF 747s won't be coming here till next year.
I know it's a long time but this is the way it is. Keep shooting. Have fun like I'm having.

All the best to everyone.

Vatche

[Edited 2004-09-17 09:12:58]
 
ryangooner
Posts: 956
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:11 pm

Art

I love the rejected pic more than the 2 you got on the database - pretty ironic that the words on the engine state "Stage Three"! when you only got stage 1 and 2 on!

A quick question - why didn't you upload the rejected one first, in my opinion i think it looks the better angle/photo than the other 2....but of course that is only my opinion.

Ryan Hemmings
ooh to ooh to be ooh to be a gooner!
 
ManBurkert
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:10 am

RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Fri Sep 17, 2004 8:50 pm

I fully agree what Art mentioned above. If the rules are clear, the frustration would be less for all sides.
BTW great shoots.

Manfred Burkert
Manfred Burkert (ZSAM)
 
aagold
Posts: 542
Joined: Wed Nov 13, 2002 6:32 am

RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:37 am

Ryan

Good question. First I looked at the photos on the database to see what was there and noticed just the two straight side on shots. I have them as well, but I chose the taxi forward shot and takeoff shot as the first two to upload. They were both different angles of the aircraft and different from what was in the database.

Based on what I thought was resolved by Johan's response in the previous thread I saw absolutely no problems with that third shot getting on the data base. I agree, it is the best of the three and definitely the one with the most impact. That's why I saved it for last.

Art
 
Zander
Topic Author
Posts: 585
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:09 am

Thanks for your replies guys, glad to hear that somebody agree with me.
The conclusion of this is that you have to be a little lucky to get a double through then  Big grin

AGD,
Special thanks to you, I am really glad to hear that...appreciate it a lot.

Alex


 
wernair
Posts: 156
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:47 pm

I agree that two perfect shots of one and the same A/C should be in the database, but within the last days there are some 99% similar shots added directly in a row... (as I browsed through the latest additions)


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Photo © Viktor László - Budapest Aviation Photography
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Photo © Viktor László - Budapest Aviation Photography



Same day, same position, same A/C and same photographer

Cheers,
Werner
Wernair Photography
 
ryangooner
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:59 pm

So obviously a few do get through the net so to speak.
the above 2 shots are very nice but quite clearly baddouble - only one should have been accepted in this instance.

But Art's 3rd shot of that 727 is no way a baddouble and its quality of composition makes us the viewers want to see it on Anet. Baddouble? no, Badtreble maybe but hey i want to see the photo's, and Art did say he saved the best to last! (I believe him!)

Ryan Hemmings

ooh to ooh to be ooh to be a gooner!
 
canberra
Posts: 289
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RE: Baddoubles - I Am Going Crazy

Sat Sep 18, 2004 9:48 pm

This is even the same picture I think, probably by mistake, but with the competition among the screeners to get the highest rejection rate I am surprised I got though!


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Photo © Bjorn Alegren
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Photo © Bjorn Alegren



Great to see a aerial shot of DAM though! Thanks for sharing, Bjørn!

/Michael
It takes courage to push things forward . . (Mo Mowlam)

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