ake0404ar
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Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:50 am

Taken from the photo usage requirements:

The digital photos on this site are licensed to Airliners.net. They are equipped with a footer with copyright and license information and also carry an invisible watermark. If you receive permission from the photographer to use a particular photo, you may use a copy from Airliners.net as long as you inform us of the usage as to avoid misunderstandings (we do not appreciate and react strongly when finding our photos on other sites that use them without permission). We do however advice that you get a new copy of the photo directly from the photographer that does not carry our license and watermark.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Do you guys know if there are any tools out there, which are preventing companies to print stolen images, i.e. If you print an image some sort of copyright logo or similar appears on the image.

A tool like this would have prevented that the German magazine focus had used K. von Wedelstaedt picture.

Thanks
VG.
 
ua777222
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:07 am

Well when you do that you loose the image quality. Example;


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Matthew Hom



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v626/ua777222/photocredit.jpg

I think that if you do that you are giving up quality and it is less appealing to the viewer. Ben Wang has a nice watermark though placing it in the corner is easily removable.

Thanks,

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
CallMeCapt
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:17 am

You can't do much about copyright infringement. I have no doubt there will always be some photos from the database being used illegally somewhere else on the web or a travel brochure or whatever. And the more popular the photograph or photgrapher, the higher the chance it is being used. If Johan watermarks the photos or allows watermarking, visitors to this site will drop dramatically.
Welcome to the real world. Theft is a reality. Not much you can do about it, unfortunately.
 Sad
Without struggle, there is no progress. (Frederick Douglass)
 
Staffan
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:18 am

Adobe has something similar with pdf's where copyright notices can appear when printed. The thing is, with a picture you only need to make a screenshot to get round such a thing.

Staffan
 
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eksath
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:02 am

I support more hurdles to prevent the copyright abuse that we read here on a regular basis. I think some kind of watermark or some other technology is needed. We have the barn door open and expect nobody to steel the horses?  Smile

The usual anti-watermark/anti new measures comment here is going to be: "if you upload to the web,expect it to be stolen". I believe that logic is archiac and we need to do better policing ourselves.

Unfortunately we don't. Looking forward to the day we do.
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
CallMeCapt
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:07 am

Question regarding copyright and the legal system. If we pursue photo thieves and we hire lawyers to prosecute them, couldn't we make it so the actual thief is liable for any legal costs? Maybe inform them we are going to pursue legal avenues and they will be liable for any legal costs. Then depending on their response, we decide whether or not to go the lawyer route.
Without struggle, there is no progress. (Frederick Douglass)
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:18 am

We aren't really talking about a visable watermark here, I think what really needs to be done is better digimarking. I'm sure a better technology exists I.E. Johan just spent alot of time on getting this great "View similar images" feature up and running but what good will it be when all our photos are on some hacks website? Watermarked or not it would still be copyright infringement.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 3:04 pm

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 6):
Johan just spent a lot of time on getting this great "View similar images" feature up and running but what good will it be when all our photos are on some hacks website?

True, a lot of time is spent on various features, but it seems very little is spent on trying to prevent copyright violations. It's frustrating.

Quoting Eksath (Reply 4):
we need to do better policing ourselves

I would support any step in the direction of making it harder for idiots to steal our images.
I know there will always be people who will say: If it's on the web, they will steal it. Nothing you can do about it
That might be the case, but to follow Eksath's way of putting it:

Quoting Eksath (Reply 4):
We have the barn door open and expect nobody to steel the horses?

So, let's close the door and make them work for it. At least it would stop the ones who are lazy and just plain stupid. Make it hard, make it difficult, make it timeconsuming for them.
Nothing like that is done here!

I welcome a serious discussion where all pro's and cons are brought to light, and where new technology is tested to see how it can work for us.

Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
European
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:08 pm

Hello

Why isn't there a "no right click" thing implumented on A.net?????

Jimmi
Come on Ryanair! Come on BOH! BASE BASE BASE! Flying high in the skies...........
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:11 pm

Quoting European (Reply 8):
Why isn't there a "no right click" thing implumented on A.net?????

Probably because most people think it's easy to disable.
It is.

But still...it would be one step to make it more timeconsuming to steal the image.

Every step makes it a bit harder...


Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
Airplanepics
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 4:13 pm

Quoting European (Reply 8):
Why isn't there a "no right click" thing implumented on A.net?????

This method doesn't work on Internet browsers such as Firefox.
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
fl350
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 5:00 pm

I agree here it's getting frustrating seeing some of our work, being printed somewhere without permission from us, or simply being stolen.

For some of us on this website, it's something more than just a hobby, noone can deny the pleasure of selling pictures to magazines and stuff.

The hobby is getting commercial and I don't think it's a bad thing.
I don't care giving money for my firstclass or other things to support the website I appreciate all the hardwork done by the crew to keep this site running and at the top.
So I suggest that some stuff could be also done in a way to prevent and/or discourage people from stealing our work. I know stopping theft would be impossible at 100% but features like, watermarks, 'no right clicks', digicodes, etc... would see the steal rate go down.
I'm fully open to test and implement some features to prevent and slow theft from the DB.
I'm no expert on the matter but I'm sure this type of technology is available.

If people who read this know something about 'antitheft technology' it would be a good thing to share it here.

Cheers

Fabrice
Fabrice Sanchez - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
Jan Mogren
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:12 pm

Something has to be done to make it at least more difficult to steal our shots.
I'm sure if it was difficult and tiresome to steal from us, then this guy Air Taxi Net (by Airportugal May 31 2005 in Aviation Photography)
would have given up.

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
PUnmuth@VIE
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:20 pm

Quoting European (Reply 8):
Why isn't there a "no right click" thing implumented on A.net?????

Because you dont need to right click.
If U R surfing and watching photos they are in the cache of your browser anyway, which means U have them on your hardisk without having to "right click".
At least in Internet Explorer it works this way.
-
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 7:23 pm

Quoting PUnmuth@VIE (Reply 13):
which means U have them on your hardisk without having to "right click".

This is true Peter, but there are many people out there who doesn't realise that. And implementing the "no-right-click" script is done in 5 seconds, so why not do it ?
And at least TRY to stop some of the violations ?

Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
TS
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:39 pm

Quoting Tommy Mogren (Reply 14):
This is true Peter, but there are many people out there who doesn't realise that. And implementing the "no-right-click" script is done in 5 seconds, so why not do it ?
And at least TRY to stop some of the violations ?

Those guys who put the images on their website know how to do it. You even don't need a right click to save images with Explorer. Also, many people use a.net photos as their desktop background or they save the image on their hard drive because they like it & don't want to go on line when they want to see it. There's nothing wrong with that.

I reckon we have to accept the risk in change for the wide exposure of a.net. Visible watermarks are not a solution.

Thomas
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 
INNflight
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:45 pm

Quoting TS (Reply 15):
Visible watermarks are not a solution.

Sure they would be.

It would be a huge step away from viewing pleasure, that's true, but setting this feature up on optional basis would be good for those who want to be protected on the commercial side of our 'hobby', though.
Jet Visuals
 
Danny
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:21 pm

I think small and discreet watermark would not do any harm and would help us protect our work from thieves.
 
birdy
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:06 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 16):
setting this feature up on optional basis would be good for those who want to be protected on the commercial side of our 'hobby', though.

Good idea why not setting this feature up for those who want watermark, or for example accept just medium size photos, and this not have to be for everyone.
Main reason why I am not uploading on A.net anymore is lack in protection of images. Since part of my income is from sold images and art, A.net is not option for me. However, I would love to share those photos here where is huge exposure and people of similar interest.
With watermark on large version of images, it would be possible to see more great photos from professionals who even never considered uploading here.

A.net is mostly for enthusiast and that is fine but it has changed and there is no reason to not add new rules, increase possibilities, and protect work of those who need this.
Expanding aesthetic qualities of photos also would be nice, and new category for arty, manipulated shots would be very welcome, but that is off topic in this thread Wink

Arty, watermarked, medium size image viewed more then 2400 times and it is not on A.net….it is not even photo Wink






…My point – if something is interesting people are going to see it even with watermark  Smile

Regards,
Greg
"The nicer an airplane looks, the better it flies"...
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 12:54 am

if something is interesting people are going to see it even with watermark

My point exactly!

Protect them now!

Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
mikephotos
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:12 am

Quoting Birdy (Reply 18):
My point – if something is interesting people are going to see it even with watermark

If someone is interested even with the watermark they'll steal it  Wink

Five minutes in a PSP and no more watermark (I added your copyright in the white area)



Mike
 
Jan Mogren
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:23 am

Mike, you have a point of course, but it takes someone with skills in PS like yourself to do it.
Lots of people are not good enough to do that and they can steal everything now.

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:27 am

Five minutes in a PSP and no more watermark

True Mike. Like said above. It's not possible to stop completely.
But every step to make it harder is welcome.
If you really, really want a shot. You can do it. But it will prevent
many from doing it. And that is something that appeals to me.

...and you are a well know master of photoshop and creating
composite images...  Big grin
So this was a bit like cheating...  Wink

Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
mikephotos
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:29 am

Quoting Tommy Mogren (Reply 22):
So this was a bit like cheating...

You guys are right. It will stop most people but like a car alarm, if a "real" theif wants it, it's his. Oh....sorry for cheating  Smile

Mike
 
Karlok
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:33 am

Quoting Tommy Mogren (Reply 14):

This is true Peter, but there are many people out there who doesn't realise that. And implementing the "no-right-click" script is done in 5 seconds, so why not do it ?
And at least TRY to stop some of the violations ?

Because it's stupid.
For example, I want to select a text and copy it, or print, or anything else. Then with the script I'm not able to do it. Of course you can use your keyboard also.

But with a script you are forcing users to change their capabilities.
Maybe others have another opinion on it, but this is what I think of it. I really don't like right mouse click prevention.

Kar-lok
 
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:54 am

I completely agree, lets watermark images. Something needs to be done. Watermarks are not a huge deal for the average viewer if done well, but are a huge deal for the average thief.

Regards
YES URLS in signature!!!
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:01 am

Of course you can use your keyboard also.

Exactly.

To me it's worth that little extra hassle to get at least some protection.
As it is today, there's NONE.

And no-one at A.net seem to care at all...


Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
birdy
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:14 am

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 20):
Five minutes in a PSP and no more watermark (I added your copyright in the white area)

Good point Smile My watermarks are quite discreet, and of course, this can be removable in Photoshop, but it takes some time and is not always that easy. In addition, images on my website are small, maximum size 600x500 pixels.

The point is to make stealing more difficult for thieves. Watermarks, no right click, smaller image size (I personally found that better for viewing) would help, and of course just for those photographers who want more protection. Some people do not want to change anything and that is ok, but others want protect their work and they should have a chance.

I would be happy to pay A.net some reasonable money just for possibility to upload medium size images, watermarked, and eventually with my kind of style shots (no screening).
Maybe something like “A.net pro” would be an answer for growing demands.

Regards,
Greg
"The nicer an airplane looks, the better it flies"...
 
birdy
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:14 am

BTW...

Latest Flightinternational magazine (31May-6June) this photograph...


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Cyrus Cambata


printed with sign "Photo Copyright (C) Cyrus Cambata ... Airliners.net"

If someone wants to print image he is going to print it even with copyright sign Wow!

That is why we should protect ourselves. A.net is for enthusiast, fine... but accidentally is also source of greatest aviation images for many businesses.

Regards,
Greg
"The nicer an airplane looks, the better it flies"...
 
TS
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:05 am

I wouldn't click on any image blemished by a huge watermark.

Thomas
Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 
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eksath
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sat Jun 04, 2005 5:57 am

While there are few professionals here, most of the people here are takings plane photos as a hobby. These hobbists have worked very hard to produce images of quality for no financial gain except presenting it to others. When someone steals that image and print,displays and passes it on WITHOUT any credit to the source,it is quite an insult. In the past we have just griped about it and written emails etc. In short just had an exchange of "hot air".

While one technology or feature may not stop the problem,these will act collectively as a HINDERANCE and make a potential violator think twice. How about a combination of:

1) watermark
2) name on thumbnail
3) disabled right click
4) if somebody hits "PRINT" they get a large "X" or a generic warniong.
5) Computer screen self distructs
6) TSA - Dept of Homeland Security shows up as violator is engaged in suspicios behavior.

(ok--perhaps not 5 & 6)



The quality of the photos being posted here has steadily increased and it only fair that photographer are protected.
World Wide Aerospace Photography
 
ake0404ar
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sun Jun 05, 2005 2:04 am

So for quite a few valid points, still no solutions.......
 
jderden777
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Th

Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:00 am

this is in my opinion a very critical subject and some may not agree with me, but i think that a.net needs to do something other than to just say "using photos without permission is bad." i definitely agree with Tommy that every little step, even if it seems minor, should be taken in order to protect our work. it should not be this easy to illegally use the photos here...

not that i'm threatening removing my photos or anything like that, however it is something that me and perhaps other photographers will consider before uploading their images here....

it seems like this issue has come up numerous times in the past with no real action being taken to protect the photos...is a.net, as one of the biggest aviation websites, going to ignore the issue of the growing problem of stolen property?

Edit: to say that i am all for the watermark idea...the copyright bar, while another defense gainst theft, seems to be the only thing standing in between your photos and someone wanting to use them...

jd

[Edited 2005-06-04 20:04:21]
"my soul is in the sky" - shakespeare
 
Karlok
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Th

Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:25 am

I've tried the watermark image method, but sometimes I look a few times and I can't see the watermark in the thumbnail and it will rejected for badwatermark (or something like that).

So I quit with that, because I was afraid for a watermark rejection.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Kar-lok Wong
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Kar-lok Wong



But I'm against methods that disable users features, like right click disabling, no printing etc..

Kar-lok
 
toptag
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sun Jun 05, 2005 4:31 am

Quoting Jderden777 (Reply 32):
it seems like this issue has come up numerous times in the past with no real action being taken to protect the photos...is a.net, as one of the biggest aviation websites, going to ignore the issue of the growing problem of stolen property?

In the link http://www.airliners.net/usephotos there's a line saying:

'If you receive permission from the photographer to use a particular photo, you may use a copy from Airliners.net as long as you inform us of the usage as to avoid misunderstandings (we do not appreciate and react strongly when finding our photos on other sites that use them without permission).'

So my question is what means 'react strongly' concerning the airTaxiNet copyright infringement?
Digital GreetinX
 
Guest

RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sun Jun 05, 2005 5:05 am

Quoting Jderden777 (Reply 32):
is a.net, as one of the biggest aviation websites, going to ignore the issue of the growing problem of stolen property?

Yes.

It's pretty clear. From acceptance to rejection, thru the screening process, to removing them from the database, to changing your comments...Airliners.net is going to do what THEY want to your photos.

I haven't seen any evidence that this site is interested in taking care of its photography contributors.

B
 
TomTurner
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Sun Jun 05, 2005 6:19 am

For myself, I am not interested in viewing any noticably watermarked images.

I'd rather the situation remained unchanged, though if it must change, I would hope for a voluntary "opt in"/"opt out" for Photographers.

This site would not exist if not for photographers, but then again, many would not upload if there wasn't a considerable audience. So other users of the site ought to be considered with equal interest.

- Tom
 
birdy
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Mon Jun 06, 2005 11:39 pm

Quoting TomTurner (Reply 36):
I'd rather the situation remained unchanged, though if it must change, I would hope for a voluntary "opt in"/"opt out" for Photographers.

Everyone knows that there is no easy solution and we can:

- leave it as it is and from time to time exchange "hot air" as Eksath said, as many times before, including this time.

-introduce watermarks on large images for all, plus eventually "no right click" etc.

-introduce watermarks only for those photographers who think they need this (optional “A.net.pro?”)

I think the last option would be the best for A.net. We all have different reasons why we taking photos of aircrafts. It would be not right to introduce something that probably most people would not agree (watermark). In the other hand, large group of photographers is concerned about growing problem of illegal use of their photos and I think they should also have a chance to protect them. I hope for that solution, and I believe not uploading photos anymore would be not our only option.

Regards,
Greg
"The nicer an airplane looks, the better it flies"...
 
administrator
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:40 am

Hi,

Sorry for not replying sooner. This issue has been covered many times, please search through the archived Aviation Photography forum for other variants of the text below.

Airliners.net has spend a large amount of time in the past researching different copyright protection methods. As mentioned in the FAQ, Is is impossible to prevent misuse unless we cover the whole photo with a big visible watermark. Do we want that? No.

By publishing your photos in magazines or on the web you will face the risk that people use your photos for various commercial or non-commercial types of use without your permission. If you are not willing to take that risk, do not publish them!

Airliners.net has made it very clear to our visitors that the photos on our site are copyright protected and may not be used without permission from the photographer. Although the absolute majority of our visitors understands and respects that, you will risk that some dishonest company somewhere in the world choose to simply ignore your rights and use your photo (the relatively low resolution version on Airliners.net) for their own needs.

It is very simple: Should we destroy the experience for the hundreds of thousands of visitors that come here to enjoy your photos by covering them with a huge copyright sign, or should we let people enjoy them in all their splendor and risk misuse by dishonest individuals? Airliners.net has chosen the former path. If you do not like that there are probably sites out there that will cater to your needs as well.

That said, I am willing to do everything that is viable to improve the situation and deter copyright violations that as long as it does not hamper the experience for the visitors in any major way. The Aviation Photography forum is a great place. If a copyright violation of any Airliners.net is to happen on any major website or magazine/news paper around the world, you can be sure it will be reported by another Airliners.net user.

Quoting Tommy Mogren (Reply 9):
Why isn't there a "no right click" thing implumented on A.net?????

Probably because most people think it's easy to disable.
It is.

But still...it would be one step to make it more timeconsuming to steal the image.

It's a silly Javascript function implemented on sites that do not know better. Is this how you intend to battle commercial copyright violations? It would make it difficult for newbies to put a photo of yours as a desktop background photo - is that what you're trying to prevent? Apart from that it would have no effect. Javascript can easily be disabled and would never stop anyone who's interested in stealing your photos. So it would cause annoyance and difficulties to thousands of aviation enthusiasts while stopping about 0% of the copyright violations.

Quoting Toptag (Reply 34):
So my question is what means 'react strongly' concerning the airTaxiNet copyright infringement?

I do not get involved in any way when it comes to copyright violations. I have enough work as it is and being free-for-all copyright laywer is not part of my future plans. Instead I suggest you get organised. The Photography Forum is the best possible system there is to find and report violations. You need to be able to handle the sitations when someone use your photos commercially. Get organised, pay $20 a month each or something that pays a lawer to hunt down and force payment from the violators.

Quoting Birdy (Reply 37):
introduce watermarks only for those photographers who think they need this (optional “A.net.pro?”)

I'll see what I can do. Firstly, is there any real interest? Are there any others than Tommy Mogren that would be seriously interested in such a function?

Is this along the lines of what you had in mind?
http://www.airliners.net/graphics/delme.jpg

I would be very sad if Airliners.net had to look like that one day.

Instead, here's my suggestion:

For those interested, the large version of the photo could be accessable for First Class Members only. That would:


  • Give us control over who can view the photo
  • Remove practically all misuse - it is very unlikey that a copyright thief would actually sign up for a paid membership!
  • Give us the ability to track down misuse - we have the real name etc on file from the payment log.


There's some negative aspects as well. We would probably loose some visitors that would leave for competing sites. Hopefully, it would possibly lead to more photographers uploading to Airliners.net? It would give us more First Class Members which is a good thing and the photographers who choose to disable the big version photo would get a free First Class Membership (or they wouldn't be able to view their own photos!).

Let me know what you think.

Thanks,
Johan
Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)
 
DLKAPA
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Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Mon Jun 13, 2005 4:54 am

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
It would make it difficult for newbies to put a photo of yours as a desktop background photo - is that what you're trying to prevent?

Sort of Contradictory to:

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
For those interested, the large version of the photo could be accessable for First Class Members only.

Or maybe you could use some of the First Class membership money generated to pay a lawyer?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
dendrobatid
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:00 am

Johan
That sounds like an excellent idea. It is not going to prevent people from visiting the site as they will still be able to see the photographs. However, they are unlikely to help themselves to them when they get a lower resolution file.
I do see that a few people are allowed to have their photographs on the site with their name on though.
Is that by special arrangement ?
Mick Bajcar
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:09 am

Also, Being that me (and many other photographers) wouldn't be able to view our own pictures in high resolution...what's the point of uploading them?
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
A346Dude
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:11 am

Johan,

I would be strongly opposed to such an idea. I only ever view the large version - I don't see the point of viewing the medium size because a.net photos are of such high quality that they deserve to be viewed at a large size. $5/month isn't really that much money, but I think you would lose a lot of visitors if they would be forced to pay to view the photos.

I don't have a first class membership, but I enjoy a.net's photos so much that I would pay for the membership if I had to. I think, however, that in that respect I am among the minority of non-first class members.

A346Dude
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
 
Jaspike
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:25 am

I think when seeing the option of having large versions for FC members only, a few too many photographers would maybe think there must be a huge problem because the option is available, which would mean less content for visitors who are unable to afford the membership.

I think we (or photographers themselves) need to sort out the people who steal images, and take some sort of action. Then show what can happen if you steal images - maybe we could have a page all about consequences of using images without permission.
So instead of saying "what could happen if you steal images", we can say "what will happen, and what has happened as a result of stealing images".

Tom
 
INNflight
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Mon Jun 13, 2005 5:33 am

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
the large version of the photo could be accessable for First Class Members only.

I'm strongly against this!
A.net will loose tons of visitors if this would be implemented, and also:

Medium photos are compressed, so by far not showing a photos' real quality. I actually see no point of viewing them when there's a larger version available also!

Only reason I could imagine are slow connections, but why otherwise?
STAY with large for all users!

Florian
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toptag
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Mon Jun 13, 2005 6:37 am

Thank you for the reply Johan!

Now that you've made it clear ...

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
I do not get involved in any way when it comes to copyright violations.

... and after your suggestion to get organised the text in http://www.airliners.net/usephotos I was referring to should be altered to '... our photographers do not appreciate and react strongly ...'
 duck 

Quoting INNflight (Reply 44):
STAY with large for all users!

I fully agree with you Florian!

Quoting Jaspike (Reply 43):
I think we (or photographers themselves) need to sort out the people who steal images, and take some sort of action. Then show what can happen if you steal images

... and also with you Tom!
Digital GreetinX
 
ChrisH
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Mon Jun 13, 2005 9:56 pm

A little off-topic perhaps, but copyright protection can go overboard:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/c...tech/20050530-9999-mz1b30snap.html

 cheeky 

[Edited 2005-06-13 14:56:34]
what seems to be the officer, problem?
 
birdy
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Mon Jun 13, 2005 10:25 pm

Hi and thanks for your reply,

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
... It is impossible to prevent misuse unless we cover the whole photo with a big visible watermark. Do we want that? No.

As I said before I also do not like idea of big visible watermark either, but probably there is no other choice. However, I believe this is insoluble problem.

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
By publishing your photos in magazines or on the web you will face the risk that people use your photos for various commercial or non-commercial types of use without your permission. If you are not willing to take that risk, do not publish them!

This is not what we are discussing here. Everyone knows the risk of publishing in one or another form. What I think we are trying to do is find a solution to protect our images on Airliners.net!

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
Airliners.net has made it very clear to our visitors that the photos on our site are copyright protected and may not be used without permission from the photographer. Although the absolute majority of our visitors understands and respects that, you will risk that some dishonest company somewhere in the world choose to simply ignore your rights and use your photo (the relatively low resolution version on Airliners.net) for their own needs.

Yes, there is a risk and it always will be. Usually there are few reports weekly about illegal use of photos from A.net, those are only we aware, and probably there is more undiscovered. If we like it or not apart of thousands viewers which visit this site for pleasure, there is many professionals who are looking for images for publications. Why? Because they cannot find such a material anywhere else and, they can possibly have image free.

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
... If you do not like that there are probably sites out there that will cater to your needs as well.

Well, I suppose that most of us know this option without reminding that on every possible occasion!
Of course, there are other sites where we can upload our photos. Some of them are similar to A.net, other more professional like picture libraries or agencies are also an option and I personally prefer that option, so far.
There are hundreds of them but is this what you really want? Do you want to see photos on other sites not on A.net?

If you say, "there are probably sites out there that will cater to your needs as well" I suppose it is not exactly what many photographers would like to hear in this discussion, especially those who want to find a solution how protect their images on A.net, and not the other site for uploading. People want display their photos in best possible site, and Airliners.net is this kind of place!

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
Quoting Birdy (Reply 37):
introduce watermarks only for those photographers who think they need this (optional “A.net.pro?”)

I'll see what I can do. Firstly, is there any real interest? Are there any others than Tommy Mogren that would be seriously interested in such a function?

Is this along the lines of what you had in mind?
http://www.airliners.net/graphics/delme.jpg

I would be very sad if Airliners.net had to look like that one day.

No, this is exaggerated example and we do not need such extreme watermark.
Is there a real interest? Here is my proposition:


  • A.net should introduce watermarks only for those photographers who want that as an option on large versions of images eventually on medium too.
  • On uploading page photographer can check his image – “protected by watermark”. Similar to Photo Print Sales option.
  • Photographer can choose which photos are watermarked, it can be just one image which is for example more valuable for him, all of them or none.
  • As an option, only some photographers can use watermark, how many of them it will be is hard to say, but I suppose it will be more then just Tommy Mogren and me Wink
  • If there will be just few photographers interested but still enough to consider introducing this new option there would no significant "hamper of the experience for the visitors in any major way", because it will be probably just few hundreds eventually thousands of photos watermarked. If this option will be popular, I suppose viewers should accept that and respect choice of photographer(s).
  • We can see what will happen during few months of trial, and if this kind prevents method could works for photographers. If there will no significant changes, we can resign of this idea or add more restrictions.
  • Is Airliners.net going to loose because of that, I do not think so. There will be some group of people that are against this idea, and some that agree but my point is, that photographers, which upload on Airliners.net, should have a choice to prevent their images, not just an option to go somewhere else.
  • Optional watermark can be also an advantage, and some new photographers can start uploading their photos here because it can be safe, A.net can have more visitors because of photographers new interesting shots even with watermark.
  • Introducing large versions of photos for money (First Class Membership) would be in my opinion very bad move because thief also can be Member of First Class; in other hand, many casual viewers would not justify to spend some money to view large versions of photos.
  • Watermark can look like this, of course instead of birdlike.com it will be airliners.net or photographer name. It can be more or les visible, and in some cases, it cannot prevent image from stealing but would definitely make this more difficult for thieves:





If you were going to consider that, it would be great Smile
Regards,
Greg
"The nicer an airplane looks, the better it flies"...
 
Tommy Mogren
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:08 am

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
This issue has been covered many times

Yes it has. Still nothing has been done.

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
I do not get involved in any way when it comes to copyright violations.

Which is explained by this quote!
Thanks for finally admitting it openly. It explains why you haven't been so frequent in for example threads like this: New Design Suggestion (by Jan Mogren Mar 13 2005 in Site Related)

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
Quoting Tommy Mogren (Reply 9):
Why isn't there a "no right click" thing implumented on A.net?????

Probably because most people think it's easy to disable.
It is.

But still...it would be one step to make it more timeconsuming to steal the image.

It's a silly Javascript function implemented on sites that do not know better.

Sad to see that you are manipulating the quote to make me look like I said all that.
As a reply, we all have discussed it in the thread and agree it IS a silly javascript.
But, if you had read the previous posts it is one more step to go though before you can steal an image.

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
Is this along the lines of what you had in mind?
http://www.airliners.net/graphics/de...e.jpg

No, absolutely not. that is disgusting. Nobody would want that, trust me.

Quoting Birdy (Reply 47):
Watermark can look like this, of course instead of birdlike.com it will be airliners.net or photographer name. It can be more or less visible, and in some cases, it cannot prevent image from stealing but would definitely make this more difficult for thieves:

This is a much better example of how it could be. Can be fine tuned a lot more before implemented, but the general idea is good.

Quoting Administrator (Reply 38):
Are there any others than Tommy Mogren that would be seriously interested in such a function?

Well, let's read the thread from the top, shall we?

Quoting AKE0404AR (Thread starter):
Do you guys know if there are any tools out there, which are preventing companies to print stolen images



Quoting Eksath (Reply 4):
I support more hurdles to prevent the copyright abuse that we read here on a regular basis



Quoting FL350 (Reply 11):
I'm fully open to test and implement some features to prevent and slow theft from the DB.



Quoting Jan Mogren (Reply 12):
Something has to be done to make it at least more difficult to steal our shots.



Quoting Danny (Reply 17):
I think small and discreet watermark would not do any harm and would help us protect our work from thieves.



Quoting Birdy (Reply 18):
Good idea why not setting this feature up for those who want watermark



Quoting F9Widebody (Reply 25):
I completely agree, lets watermark images. Something needs to be done.



Quoting Eksath (Reply 30):
While one technology or feature may not stop the problem,these will act collectively as a HINDERANCE and make a potential violator think twice.



Quoting Jderden777 (Reply 32):
i definitely agree with Tommy that every little step, even if it seems minor, should be taken in order to protect our work. it should not be this easy to illegally use the photos here...

Looks like a few are interested.
Greg's (birdy, post nbr 47) post is very informative and holds some very good suggestions.


Tommy Mogren - open for discussion
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JeffM
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RE: Watermarks....protecting Our Images Against Theft

Tue Jun 21, 2005 5:14 am

Quoting Tommy Mogren (Reply 48):
Looks like a few are interested.

Yup, looks like 9. Would you count the rest of us as opposed?

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