Blackhawk144
Topic Author
Posts: 769
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Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:23 pm

Hello

I post this message talking about upload standards.

I've been seeing more and more people one by one get extremely discouraged with aviation photography. It seems to be because of Airliners.net's uploading standards. So many people have become disgruntled with the quality standards on airliners.net that they are moving to Jetphotos.net.

I must honestly say I don't blame them, with some of the standards on this site. Something needs to be done before this gets out of hand

Anthony
Time is the best of all teachers. Unfortunately, it kills all of its students!
 
INNflight
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:31 pm

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Thread starter):
with some of the standards on this site.

Elaborate this please.


Airliners.net is, and probably will always stay the best aircraft photo database regarding quantity, and due to the high standards, also quality!

Lots of people stay with A.net because the standards are that high, and most photographers on this site are able to keep up with the standards.

My point of view: The standards of this site are perfectly okay, if you know what this site accepts, and what is okay in terms of quality or not, you won't have any problems.

Florian
Jet Visuals
 
vir380
Posts: 484
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:40 pm

The standards at AN are very much achievable by pretty much anyone ....

see this thread Acceptance Ratio Of Top Photogs! (by StealthZ Jun 16 2005 in Aviation Photography)

the acceptance rates are very good indeed so far !


Can you elaborate a little on why you say this ?
Can you give us examples on why you feel this way ?

Have you had some rejections we can look at and maybe help ?

For me personally the standards set at AN are for one reason only .... to keep it the best Aviation image site on the internet to date , as i have said all along ... an image is rejected because the image can be better with a little time put in , the site does not want to reject images as without you there is no site .. you with me so far ?

If people get rejections it should in effect make then more eager to succeed , i know it does me ... if i get a rejection ... i re-work it and then 9 times out of 10 it gets on ...

Its not all about rushing to get as many as is humanly possible onto the site .... its quite simply a way to show off your talent and aircraft pictures to the world , there is another life beyond the internet too
 

regards Tony

[Edited 2005-06-17 07:51:16]
Moved away from this lost website to better things !
 
JeffM
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 2:41 pm

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Thread starter):
So many people have become disgruntled with the quality standards on airliners.net that they are moving to Jetphotos.net.

That is the biggest load of crap ..... Because some can't reach the bar doesn't mean you lower it..... They just have learn to do better. I'm sure Johan is quaking in his boots over a few people running over to brand X so they can get their "all so important pictures on the internet".
 
N317AS
Posts: 941
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:23 pm

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Thread starter):
I must honestly say I don't blame them, with some of the standards on this site. Something needs to be done before this gets out of hand

They can do what I try to do. Get my standards higher. It isn't working completely yet, but I'm not giving up and going over there. There is enough help on this site, anyone can improve.
Some people are like Slinkies. They bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs.
 
Erwin972
Posts: 470
Joined: Sun May 30, 2004 2:21 am

RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:40 pm

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Thread starter):
I must honestly say I don't blame them, with some of the standards on this site. Something needs to be done before this gets out of hand

No problem at all with these high standards!

Rejects can hurt sometimes but try to understand why and try to learn something from it. It can only help you improving your photography and editing skills. In the long run you come out better.

But if that is not what you want, and you can't take on a more professional view about this, then just go somewhere else.

Kind regards,
Erwin
My gear: Nikon, Sony, Red, Sachtler etc.
 
sean377
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 3:55 pm

It's interesting to read the support for A.Net in this thread after the bashing Johan got in the recent (and long!) thread "New Upload Queue Limits". I refrained from posting my opinion in that thread, partly due to it's length, but mainly as I feel I am not yet experienced enough in A.Net's 'ways' to give an accurate view.

Despite having around 100 or so photo's since getting my camera in March, I have only uploaded 1. Surprisingly, it was accepted. As I have been reading this forum for considerably longer than I've been taking photo's, I gained a 'feel' for the quality required to get shots accepted. For that reason, I am quite happy with my upload queue maximum of 5. I see little point in uploading a photo that is of similar quality/composure to over 100 others of the same aircraft. My future uploads will, in the main, have to be 'better' than what's already there for a particular aircraft. A tall order, granted, but one which makes me think before pressing the shutter release!

Remember, it's everything that goes on before the shutter is pressed that makes great photo's!

Regards

Sean
Flying is the second greatest thrill known to man... Landing is the first!
 
Granite
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:28 pm

Anthony

Thanks for your comments. Your wealth of experience has been noted and comments will be passed on to the crew.

Regards

Gary
 
jettrader
Posts: 580
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:31 pm

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Thread starter):
I've been seeing more and more people one by one get extremely discouraged with aviation photography. It seems to be because of Airliners.net's uploading standards.

First rule of life:-

If you're going to do anything, do it for yourself or because you want to do it. If you're "into" aviation photography just to get pics added to the a.net site then maybe you're in it for all the wrong reasons.

Just my  twocents .

Cheers,
Dean / JT
Life's dangerous. Get a f**king helmet!
 
ghostbase
Posts: 343
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:32 pm

I understand what you are saying Anthony and perhaps I was very lucky when I first started here 18 months ago. I had a photo of a United 747SP at LAX taken back in 1987 and thought I would give it a try just out of curiosity and I was delighted when it was accepted - and have been bitten by the bug ever since! I can see that getting that first photo in the database is a hard slog for many people and perhaps some would become discouraged.

For photographers A.Net is a bit like climbing Mount Everest, you do it because it is the highest and one of the most challenging! The high standard is entirely the whole point and I am a better photographer for it. Not the best yet, got to work a bit more on that  Wink

Can I respectfully challenge your point that "So many people have become disgruntled..."? How do you know that?

 ghost 
"I chase my dreams but I never seem to arrive"
 
fergulmcc
Posts: 1877
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 4:42 pm

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Thread starter):
that they are moving to Jetphotos.net.

Well Its a free world you can do what you want. Even some of the screeners upload to JP.
If its bothering you that much then maybe you're in the wrong hobby. I love photography, and I want to enjoy what I do so I don't allow A,net get to me despite all the rejections. I will admit I used to get worked up but not anymore, I have enough things in life to worry about and a.net is the last thing I need to get hung up over. Its one thing being passionate about a hobby, but don't let it get to you!
Remember this is a hobby, enjoy it! If people want to move to JP, let them! its their choice.

Take care and have fun, Big grin

Fergul Big grin  sun 
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
Blackhawk144
Topic Author
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 5:19 pm

Ok, I've realized something.

I worded this whole post wrong, and my true point never got across because it was misunderstood.

I'm just gonna leave posting this crap to someone else who can do it properly.

Anthony
Time is the best of all teachers. Unfortunately, it kills all of its students!
 
Thom@s
Posts: 11674
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:05 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 1):
Lots of people stay with A.net because the standards are that high,

Agreed. I have another site where I upload pretty much everything I shoot, and then upload the best of those pics to a.net.

Airliners.net isn't the best aviation photography site because of the number of photos. It's the quality that makes it good.

So if another aviation related site has 4 million photos, of which 10 of them would pass a a.net screening, I'd rather look through the a.net photos...

Thom@s
"If guns don't kill people, people kill people - does that mean toasters don't toast toast, toast toast toast?"
 
dc10tim
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:21 am

RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 6:21 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 1):
Lots of people stay with A.net because the standards are that high, and most photographers on this site are able to keep up with the standards.



Quoting Thom@s (Reply 12):
Airliners.net isn't the best aviation photography site because of the number of photos. It's the quality that makes it good

I agree with both these points. For one thing where's the challenge if everything you upload you know will automatically be accepted. The high standards are an incentive to produce your best work.

I'm sure lots of people become disgruntled by the number of rejections at first, but that shouldn't be a reason to give up trying.

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
ghostbase
Posts: 343
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 7:58 pm

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Reply 11):
I'm just gonna leave posting this crap to someone else who can do it properly.

That will be a great shame if you do that, your opinions matter as much as anyone else's and don't let anyone suggest otherwise. Your post has generated quite a few responses and, as Sean says, it is interesting to read the support for A.Net in this thread.

As far as your original point goes that "something needs to be done", something *has* been done and we have to wait now to see if it will work. I would cautiously hazard the opinion that the early signs are encouraging.

 ghost 
"I chase my dreams but I never seem to arrive"
 
mhodgson
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:16 pm

Why are people discouraged? Surely we take photos because we love the hobby, not because we are only satisfied by getting photos on anet. compared to the number I have taken, I have had many more rejected - but I accept that, and do not get disheartened. I try harder, upgrade equipment, and just enjoy visiting airports and getting up close and personal with the aircraft at MAN!
No trees were harmed by this message. However, several million electrons were terribly inconvenienced
 
MidnightMike
Posts: 2810
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:23 pm

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Thread starter):
Hello

I post this message talking about upload standards.

I've been seeing more and more people one by one get extremely discouraged with aviation photography. It seems to be because of Airliners.net's uploading standards. So many people have become disgruntled with the quality standards on airliners.net that they are moving to Jetphotos.net.

I must honestly say I don't blame them, with some of the standards on this site. Something needs to be done before this gets out of hand

Anthony

What should airliners.net do, lower their standards or train the photographers to take better photos? I would think it would be a badge of honor, if your photo was accepted by the screeners at airliners.net....
NO URLS in signature
 
johndm1957
Posts: 138
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:39 pm

This site and forum has improved ALL my photography over the 12 months since I got my very first picture accepted, and many others rejected.

Lessons learnt here can be applied to many other subjects. My holiday pictures this year are far better composed etc than ever before.

Keep raising the standard here, and keep it as the best site in the world.

We all love a challenge don't we?

regards
Canon 550D, 18-55, 50 1.8, 100-400L
 
QANTAS077
Posts: 5175
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 5:08 pm

RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:49 pm

Quoting MidnightMike (Reply 16):
What should airliners.net do, lower their standards or train the photographers to take better photos? I would think it would be a badge of honor, if your photo was accepted by the screeners at airliners.net....

try getting rid of some of the obvious double standards, hypocricies and inconsistencies for a start would be a bloody good thing! this site is a good place to view good photos! nothing more than that, it's not the best because there is no measure for perfection! the downfall is the inconsistent screening and the straight out double standards that are afforded to a few!

if you think it's BS then i'll point a few photos out and you can all see the inconsistencies for yourselves! nothing stinks more than inconsistent judgement by people who are supposedly "professional" there is no 2 ways about it, a fair go for all or no go at all. this site has a few people that i respect for there creativity and professionalism. one is the highest views photographer on the site.

this site will never be great as long as these 2 major factors are evident, the email that comes with your uploads pretty much puts you down before you even have a chance to learn, if your a photographer you'll have to pay for the privledge to ask some questions about your rejections, if you don't pay you could say you don't get the chance to learn! that is noway IMHO to encourage people to learn, learning and encouragement go together, a email with the phrase 'without warnings' makes you think, fuck i have to watch everything i do when i submit something.

nothing is perfect, this site is far from it, it's the double standards that goes a long way to alienate the people that make this site what it is! at a slide show in NYC recently i saw a bunch of photos with some of the most stupid rejection reasons i've ever seen! sometimes you have to wonder, i do often, i'm sure everyone who's replied here does too! if you haven't then i'd venture to say your not being honest!

to improve this site needs to be seen to be FAIR to all, it's not a level playing field and as long as it stays like this people will become more disgruntled and looks elsewhere to upload photos as some have done, i wonder why that is? maybe because they want there work to be seen, not to be judged by its motive, maximum sharpness etc, i think that says it all! and others will eventually find the sites that don't accept anything but do look to accept and not look to reject your photos, without the pedantic nonsense that is seen here.

i'll now await the verbal and shit throwing at me!
 
f4wso
Posts: 942
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 8:52 pm

I think Airliners.net has been very accomodating when it started MyAviation.net. Photographers can always opt to upload to other sites or begin their own webpage. I think my images have had a much broader viewing on Anet than they would in any other venue because of the website's reputation.
Gary
Cottage Grove, MN, USA
Seeking an honest week's pay for an honest day's work
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:13 pm

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Reply 11):
Ok, I've realized something.

I worded this whole post wrong, and my true point never got across because it was misunderstood.

Sounded perfectly clear to me.

When are we going to be able to post here without the constant whining about how people can't get their pics into the db? I got rejection after rejection but did I cry?  crying  NO!

I got a better camera suited for this, practiced by shooting my ass off, asked good photogs advice and what do you know? I got my first pic in the database!  present 

Also I have gotten more pics in and have only one rejection in my last 8 uploads which brings me to another thing. Too many pictures that have no business being uploaded are being uploaded here. It makes the wait to get pics screened too long!  crazy 

So instead of whining about it, how about becoming better and getting better pictures and learning to use PS instead of posting this crap. Would do everyone a big favor.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
ua777222
Posts: 2987
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:33 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 18):
it's not the best because there is no measure for perfection! the downfall is the inconsistent screening and the straight out double standards that are afforded to a few!

Take your uploads elsewhere then... Apparently with all these doublestandards and inconsistency you still upload so I see no issue to bitch about the crew...

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 18):
if you think it's BS then i'll point a few photos out and you can all see the inconsistencies for yourselves! nothing stinks more than inconsistent judgement by people who are supposedly "professional" there is no 2 ways about it, a fair go for all or no go at all.

No need to point fingers now. Again if there is such an issue with this site and their "unfair" judgement calls then upload elsewhere.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 18):
this site will never be great as long as these 2 major factors are evident, the email that comes with your uploads pretty much puts you down before you even have a chance to learn, if your a photographer you'll have to pay for the privledge to ask some questions about your rejections, if you don't pay you could say you don't get the chance to learn!

Might not be the best but so far no one has yet to offer anything better. With a crew of around 30 I don't think they are going to give you a guide to perfection for each rejection. Just not going to happen. Not here, not at the next place, nowhere. A.net provides what it can within reason. What would be the point for Johan to just let anyone post here? Though you pay either $5 a month or a one shot $25 I think your money is well spent. Sure I post here frequently but it seems as though each day there is the same post here or there so if you don't want to pay more than likely you'll have your question answered by another user with the same issue.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 18):
nothing is perfect, this site is far from it, it's the double standards that goes a long way to alienate the people that make this site what it is! at a slide show in NYC recently i saw a bunch of photos with some of the most stupid rejection reasons i've ever seen! sometimes you have to wonder, i do often, i'm sure everyone who's replied here does too! if you haven't then i'd venture to say your not being honest!

Take it however you want it, it is what it is. Again if you don't like it take the show on the road, there are plenty of photographers who benefit day in and day out with the current system.

Quoting Johndm1957 (Reply 17):
to improve this site needs to be seen to be FAIR to all, it's not a level playing field and as long as it stays like this people will become more disgruntled and looks elsewhere to upload photos as some have done, i wonder why that is?

Some times you just have to get over it. Just get over it. There comes a point when you're just yelling to hear your voice. Yes I do understand, and I bet half the users here understand, that there are filches in the system but I don't think anyone here can find such a place where a database consists of roughly 824,277 photos among 10,000 photographers screened by 27 volunteer professionals who deal with a queue as long as 17,000 photos.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 18):
maybe because they want there work to be seen, not to be judged by its motive, maximum sharpness etc, i think that says it all! and others will eventually find the sites that don't accept anything but do look to accept and not look to reject your photos, without the pedantic nonsense that is seen here.

Myaviation.net?

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 18):
i'll now await the verbal and shit throwing at me!

 duck 

I would have to say that Airliners.net and all related crew members have done their best to meet our needs. Just as they have done for us we should do for them. We all get pissed off because we go to the airport, spend hours taking pictures, come home, spend hours editing, and then upload. Then what? Oh yea we all bitch about how long we have to wait. Ok now hop on over to the other side of the fence.

A screener sits down at their desk to see the queue grow another 1,000 photos. They could be at the airport taking pictures as well, which they do, but instead they will sit and look at each and every photo. With their input they either reject or accept. Who cares about how long they spend on "your" photo, the fact of the matter is that they are not getting paid, they are not being forced to do it, they are taking the time out of their day to help us, as photographers, improve ourselves to produce better images to have hosted on airliners.net.

Treat others as you wish to be treated. They have done us a lot and we should respect them for it. Not rip them a new butt every time we find something wrong. Hell they're here to find out what's wrong with our photo's so if we really have no place to talk... And even with all these anti-a.net-crew posts they still screen day after day, hour after hour, for all of us

To say that airliners.net needs to change but won't is just funny. You have to remember that without us photographers there is no airliners.net so to say that they are not meeting our needs is just bull. But, as stated above, you can only do so much with what you have.

To Johan, the crew, and related personnel I thank you for your time, efforts, and input. I'm not trying to kiss ass, make friends, piss others off, it just pisses me off to hear people bitch about the system that is there to serve them.

Be happy with what you've got. It could easily be gone.

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
JFK
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:18 pm

RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:34 pm

Some people cant accept rejection. If my shots are rejected I just accept, learn, and move on to the next photo. Some are rejected and some are accepted. I have learned to be more critical of the photos that I consider uploading. My strike rate has improved as a result.
 
Jaspike
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 9:39 pm

Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
When are we going to be able to post here without the constant whining about how people can't get their pics into the db?



Quoting NIKV69 (Reply 20):
So instead of whining about it, how about becoming better and getting better pictures and learning to use PS instead of posting this crap. Would do everyone a big favor.

I think this is the problem - the minority that whine (i.e. the one's who aren't positive and don't try to improve after rejections) make it seem as though there is some huge problem, and hundreds of photographers are losing the will to live... Which I don't think is the case at all.
But these threads get more people worked up which then creates more stress, and before we know it we've got a thread full of angry people and people viewing the thread seem to think there must be a major problem.

People should almost see rejections as something positive (I know it sounds crazy ) - it's an opportunity to ask for advice and improve your skills, then when you do improve you'll feel as though you've accomplished something - and you'll have better photos in the database.

You can't just go from being a beginner to becoming a photographer with a high acceptance rate overnight, people need to accept that rejections are going to be part of the process, and they can't be ignored if you're to improve - everybody's got to learn sometime

If some people were more positive there would be better results and more people would be willing to give advice in this forum. (Edit: again, it's the minority that aren't being positive, better make myself totally clear..)

John (reply 17) has got the right idea

Anyway, that's my personal view

Tom

[Edited 2005-06-17 14:55:34]
 
andyhunt
Crew
Posts: 1226
Joined: Sat Jan 06, 2001 10:50 pm

RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:31 pm

The viewpoint above is an interesting one. All I can say is this, if you could see some of the first pics that I took on slide in the early 1990s, well they wouldn't quite be up to what I output these days. Big grin

Like it or not, there is a learning curve, it can either be shallow, linear or steep, but it will always have to be travelled........and in many ways, a.net has driven me to become a better photographer by forcing me to continually review and examine what I'm outputting.

I read an interesting statement the other day, which somehow relates to uploading and not improving......The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result Big grin

Regards

Andrew
Full frame always beats post processing
 
Psych
Posts: 2944
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:40 pm

Ooooo - some interesting stuff posted here. Did I see the 'f' word somewhere above?

These things do create a mass of strong feelings - I should know  wink . I too desperately want a level playing field, and I hate the idea of double standards/inconsistencies etc and I want to see them eradicated. But I also like to be stretched and I like the idea that I can improve and get good quality guidance. I don't think there is anywhere better to do this on the Net.

I feel confident that this site is not the sole preserve of the select few with the poshest, most expensive kit. For me it is the site with the best quality aviation photographs. The standards need to be high and, with the developments in digital technology, there is nothing wrong with those standards changing in a 'tougher' direction. I think it is good for me as a keen - though very amateur - photographer that I have to try very hard to capture the best image, then edit it to the best standard I can, and then have to think very hard what criteria it will be being judged against before I upload it to avoid a rejection - it makes it more likely I will improve. If I take a great shot but recognise that on A.net it is bound to be rejected for baddistance, or photograph a wonderful 'arty' image with a plane in it, but it's likely to get badmotive here, ultimately it is not right or fair to blame the site or the screeners.

I have to say that people like Johan, the screeners and the other crew - by the nature of their position and - let's be frank - their power to make decisions about 'our babies' - are always going to get it in the neck from disgruntled punters; it's the nature of being in that position. They're also not going to get it right all the time. For me it's not about the standards - which should remain the highest on the Net - it's about all participants feeling that they are working together to keep this as the most popular aviation photography site around.

When in doubt think of Johan and the crew as the 'parents' and us photographers as the stroppy adolescents. Pretty well all the dynamics (sorry for a bit of psychobabble there  wink  ) that we see here every day - myself included - then all start to make sense. We are all part of a dysfunctional family here - as many of us are in real life families, where parents aren't always right, and the kids aren't always to blame - it's all about minimising the problems so that things can work as best as possible, without all falling out or storming off.

Paul
 
billsville
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 10:51 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 18):
try getting rid of some of the obvious double standards, hypocricies and inconsistencies for a start would be a bloody good thing! this site is a good place to view good photos! nothing more than that, it's not the best because there is no measure for perfection! the downfall is the inconsistent screening and the straight out double standards that are afforded to a few!



Quoting Jaspike (Reply 23):
I think this is the problem - the minority that whine (i.e. the one's who aren't positive and don't try to improve after rejections) make it seem as though there is some huge problem, and hundreds of photographers are losing the will to live... Which I don't think is the case at all.
But these threads get more people worked up which then creates more stress, and before we know it we've got a thread full of angry people and people viewing the thread seem to think there must be a major problem.

Maybe there's an ounce of truth in both statements.......

It seems these days that the complaints are starting to get more prevalent though....

One thing that worries me though, from another thread on acceptance ratios the screeners that replied seem to have a high acceptance to rejection ratio. Maybe this is where people are seeing the problems and causes useres to question the system.

I'm just trying to say that if one person complains then its probably a frivolous claim, but the more complaints you see, the more you start to believe.

Its all about perception, and the perception seems to be altering...
 
andyhunt
Crew
Posts: 1226
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:00 pm

Quote:
One thing that worries me though, from another thread on acceptance ratios the screeners that replied seem to have a high acceptance to rejection ratio. Maybe this is where people are seeing the problems and causes useres to question the system.



Perhaps a simple case of screeners pre-screening our photos BEFORE uploading  banghead 

I can tell you for one that when screening my fellow screeners' pics, no preferential treatment is given.

Andrew
Full frame always beats post processing
 
Jaspike
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:05 pm

Quoting Billsville (Reply 26):
One thing that worries me though, from another thread on acceptance ratios the screeners that replied seem to have a high acceptance to rejection ratio.

My first thought when I saw that was "that's good, they're practicing what they're preaching" (i.e. pre-screening)  veryhappy 

Tom
 
QANTAS077
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:14 pm

UAL777222
i think you have the wrong impression, i'm not bitching about the problems here, i am making an observation just from some of the rejection threads i have read!

i uplod my shots to here and jp, i also screen photos at jp so i have some idea of what i'm saying or i'd not have said it, yes the sites are different but very much the same thing is on offer, a place for the public to display the work they've created. the screening process is pretty similar, the one main exception is that we don't look to reject your photos carte blanche, but we don't accept anything and everything either, we draw the line alot more fairly than a.net! but we do like to see people with less experience given a good oppurtunity to show there work.

just knowing that this site is looking for reasons to reject your photos puts you on the back foot before you've even uploaded! i upload here with the constant fear that everything is not 100%, to me that's no way to upload photos that you spend time and money on to benefit this site and yourself.

i'd be willing to bet that i'm not the only one either, personally, i think that fear factor is no way to encourage anyone who wishes to enter this hobby, and yea it's just a hobby, but yeah we take it personally, it might be because of the pressure were under when submitting here!

it's just an observation.

Andy
your one of the people who i've always admired in this hobby, your photos have always inspired me to better my work, as you know when i was starting out with my crappy point and shoot pics at jp, then progressing 1 step at a time to where i am today, sure it takes time, it's people like you that make this hobby worthwhile and the knowledge you share is invaluable!

Paul
i think were the parents of this baby, we hold the key as to whether a.net survives, no photographers submitting = no a.net, increasing the standards to a point where only those with the DSLR kit's get photo's accepted goes against what this site should be about, that's a site for all that can display there images so long as they meet a reasonable standard! not a standard that means you need to go spend $$ to get the latest DSLR, IS lenses and nonsense like that. relaxing them a little and cleaning up the inconsistencies isn't going to make this site any less better than it is, it might have a positive affect and encourage more of the people this site should be encouraging to contribute more effictively.

i know i didn't get nearly 900 shots on here by taking good photos, i just happen to edit them well and they got accepted, the photos of mine are average at best, nothing outstading or mindblowing, but i'm not submitting to blow peoples minds or rake up hits, i'm submitting for me and to show the aviation in my home city! i've never encountered so many rejections in all the time i've uploaded here, some for reasons that some of us are still trying to figure out. like Bill said above, the amount of rejection threads that are popping up now is alarming, some from people who contribute here alot more than myself, i'm not sure if the standards have gone through the roof? the boss has told screeners to cut back on additions to the site? but i can see for myself that alot more people are having alot more trouble getting photos on here than ever before!

i had a rejection for dirt about 2 weeks ago, i requested help and the only way we/other members could find the dirt was to equalize the image, if i have to go to lengths like that to find the smallest spec/s of dirt then what makes a screener think that a viewer is going to see it? it left me wondering if that image was equalized by a screener or not just to find the dirt, if a few sets of eyes had that much trouble finding it then i don't see why the big deal when its being screened? nothings perfect in this world, pushing the people who make this site the success it is to strive for perfection 100% of the time is insane, it pushes us to make more mistakes in trying to be perfect. it seems like its now at 110% for some uploaders while others are dealt with more leniantly.

anyways, i'm going to watch Saw again!
 
ua777222
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:19 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 29):
UAL777222
i think you have the wrong impression, i'm not bitching about the problems here, i am making an observation just from some of the rejection threads i have read!

Had nothing directed towards you. Just an overall observation of the situation.

Matt
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
PUnmuth@VIE
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:34 pm

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 29):
yes the sites are different

Thankfully. Wouldnt it be boring if all sites for the purpose of showing aviation related photos where the same?

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 29):
the screening process is pretty similar

How do you know? Have you screened here?

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 29):
we draw the line alot more fairly than a.net!

It always depends on the standpoint. Lets just say different sites draw the lines different. Then the statement is much more objective  Wink

So lets not compare any sites, no matter how they are called, this will never be fair. Each might have positives and negatives.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 29):
it might be because of the pressure were under when submitting here!

I never thought you are the guy who let anyone put pressure onto you  Wow!
Remember nobody forces anyone to upload here or there.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 29):
it left me wondering if that image was equalized by a screener or not just to find the dirt,

Definitely not. No time for that.
-
 
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apuneger
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:42 pm

Why should one get discouraged for not getting their photos on Airliners.net? If one of my photos gets rejected, I move on with my life. I've passed beyond the point of 'damn, the photo got rejected' (a point of view that didn't last very long in the first place).

The main purpose of me taking photos of aircraft is for my own personal collection. It's fun to share photos on Airliners.net, get some comments and every now and then get in contact with aviation companies. But, you should be taking photos for yourself, not for somebody else (unless they pay you of course).

I'm sure you have some friends who also love aviation. If you have some photos you find interesting, email those to them and share comments on the photos.

Aviation photography didn't 'take off' when the Internet was born or became popular. I started taking photos when I was twelve and went to Airshows all over Belgium, taking photos of C-130's, Seaking and F-16's.

Greets,
Ivan
Ivan Coninx - Brussels Aviation Photography
 
SignalOne
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:47 pm

Its a steep learning curve Airliners.net is, and as always with things like this, Practice Makes Perfect.

I act as a pessimist when uploading Photos, so when they are Rejected, I'm not so disappointed!  

Even if I made a Photo so good, and people say it would make it, I would still have that feeling of it being Rejected when uploading it. That just makes Acception so much better (I have yet to experience it though).

I do understand the Frustration though.

[Edited 2005-06-17 16:49:00]
Golf - Bravo Romeo India Foxtrot
 
administrator
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Fri Jun 17, 2005 11:49 pm

Hello,

I am very happy to see the support most of you express, thank you very much for your trust in the way I run Airliners.net.

Anthony,
You are not the first one to complain about the high standards on Airliners.net. It has been discussed countless times in the past, simply search the archived version of this forum and you will find many heated discussions where I have made comments similar to the ones I am about to make:

The standards on Airliners.net are very high. They will remain high and probably increase over time as they have done in the past. Airliners.net welcomes all photographers to upload photos but we do not guarantee that we will accept your photos. In fact, most photos sent to us are rejected. Like any other offline or online publication, we must be allowed to set our own standards. If you do not like Airliners.net there are alternatives as you pointed out. However, if you are interested in displaying your photos on the world's biggest aviation site and have your photos listed side by side with the very best photos of the very best aviation photographers in the world, there is no alternative.

Quoting Blackhawk144 (Thread starter):
I've been seeing more and more people one by one get extremely discouraged with aviation photography.

Actually Airliners.net has had a very positive effect on the growth of aviation photography and the aviation hobby as a whole. I believe most will agree with that statement.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 18):
try getting rid of some of the obvious double standards, hypocricies and inconsistencies for a start would be a bloody good thing!

I get very irritated when I hear such accusations. Airliners.net has nothing to gain and everything to loose from such behavior.

Double standards: There are no double standards on Airliners.net. We would very quickly loose our high standing in the aviation community if we started accepting crappy photos for some and rejecting very high quality photos from others. What in hell would make you think that such behavior would be in the interest of Airliners.net!?

Hypocrisies and inconsistencies: If you ever make such serious accusations again without giving proof or at least an example of such behavior I am going to have you banned from here for life!

Screening is a subjective matter and although they are all trained to use the same standards, there's going to be small variations in the screening of different individuals, we cannot get away from that fact. The standards of Airliners.net might not be the same as yours. What we consider to be a clear rejection might be seen as a great photo by you. This is also something we cannot get away from as we're all only human and there is no objective rules as what a great photo looks like.

The "inconsistencies" you might experience are caused by one of those two reasons.

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 18):
if you think it's BS then i'll point a few photos out and you can all see the inconsistencies for yourselves!

You better!

Quoting QANTAS077 (Reply 18):
the email that comes with your uploads pretty much puts you down before you even have a chance to learn

While most magazines you send your photos to do not even send you a reply, we at least reply and even try to pin-point what exactly caused us to reject your photo. We're not your teacher in photography though and you should not ask of us to try to teach you how to manage your camera.

Anyway, we are currently working on the different rejection messages to give them a more supportive tone. I am aware that some are quite harsh.

Quoting UA777222 (Reply 21):
To say that airliners.net needs to change but won't is just funny. You have to remember that without us photographers there is no airliners.net so to say that they are not meeting our needs is just bull.

Thank you Matt, we are certainly doing our best to meet the needs of the photographers on Airliners.net. As you mentioned, without them there would be no Airliners.net.

Quoting Billsville (Reply 26):
One thing that worries me though, from another thread on acceptance ratios the screeners that replied seem to have a high acceptance to rejection ratio.

Would you like to have your photos screened by someone with a lower acceptance ratio than you? I select the screeners with great care. They need to be excellent photographers, among the top 1% on the site. This means their acceptance ratio is bound to be very high.

But let's assume you're right and the high acceptance ratio is not because the photos are good but because he's getting "special" treatment by the other screeners. Would that be positive for the screener receiving the "special" treatment? Certainly not! Come on people, think about it. Why would a screeners (or anyone for that matter!) want to have photos in our database that aren't really good enough to be here? Why would anyone want to have photos accepted as a "favour"? The best way to screen the photos of a screener is to be fair and unmerciful. Like everyone else, screeners wants to have their photos in our database because they meet or even succeed our requirements, NOT because of any favours.

Quoting Billsville (Reply 26):
It seems these days that the complaints are starting to get more prevalent though....

Certainly not true! Read the archived posts in Aviation Photography. I am very happy to see that most are starting to understand how Airliners.net is ran and how much we would loose if we violated your trust.

Regards,
Johan
Working on the site from morning 'till night that's livin' alright (1997-2007)
 
Kukkudrill
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:29 am

Quoting Administrator (Reply 34):
Anyway, we are currently working on the different rejection messages to give them a more supportive tone. I am aware that some are quite harsh.

Way to go Johan. Would it be possible to share drafts with the photographers before putting them into effect?
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
SignalOne
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:40 am

Quoting Administrator (Reply 34):
They will remain high and probably increase over time as they have done in the past.

I was thinking if this would happen, I can't imagine the standards getting any higher, as the current standard is high at the moment. Would it ever get to a point where the Standards just could not get any higher?

And I am not moaning Big grin
Golf - Bravo Romeo India Foxtrot
 
INNflight
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:43 am

Quoting SignalOne (Reply 36):
Would it ever get to a point where the Standards just could not get any higher?

Probably not. Think forward...

DSLR's with

30 MP
40fps
ISO 3200 looking like ISO 200

...  Wink
Jet Visuals
 
SignalOne
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 12:52 am

I was thinking about this the other Day, surly we are going to come to a point where technology in Something can just not be made any better, apart from making little adjustments like adding more Zoom for a Camera etc.

There are some Photographs in the Gallery which I could just not imagine them being of a better standard. It hits you when you see a good Photograph, and to lower the standards would be bad all round.

As you work towards your first upload, (and yes, I do take Photo's for myself, not for Airliners.net) the skills you learn are fantastic, so the High Standards are a good thing.
Golf - Bravo Romeo India Foxtrot
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:01 am

I would argue that the problem isn't the high standards but rather the length of time that it takes to get a photo screened. High standards are good for everyone they encourage us to continually make our shots better and provide for a more attractive database. However the fact that it takes so long for photos to get screened sometimes makes it more attractive to take the photos elsewhere. Why do you think that other websites have "scooped" airliners on the newest liverys and types recently? I feel that something has to be done to reduce the time in screening but the new queue limits arent going to do that at all. Rather they are going to keep the queue just as long but less accessible to those who are just starting out. I feel that it was just a copout to keep people from bitching.
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INNflight
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:05 am

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 39):
but rather the length of time that it takes to get a photo screened.

Oh please not again!

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 39):
on the newest liverys and types recently?

Heard of priority screening before?! Email the crew and the photo will be up in no time!

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 39):
I feel that something has to be done to reduce the time in screening

New photo screeners are just being selected, as Johan said in the "new queue" thread.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 39):
but the new queue limits arent going to do that at all.

Have a look at the queue, since the new system was implemented, the number of photos / day went down constantly!

Oh... read my signature!
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clickhappy
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:14 am

Jetphotos.net does not employ screeners like Airliners.net, from what I understand. The process there is that each picture is looked at once, by a 'screener' and then accepted to the database. The purpose of this 1-person screening is to make sure that the total garbage, non aviation, and stolen images do not make it into the site.

Airliners.net employs a team approach, each picture that is accepted is looked at by at least three screeners and there is open discussion between the screening team about the merits and flaws of most images. That's why it takes longer, more time is spent insuring a quality product is put out there for you.

All at no charge, of course.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:17 am

Quoting INNflight (Reply 40):
Heard of priority screening before?! Email the crew and the photo will be up in no time!

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 39):I feel that something has to be done to reduce the time in screening
New photo screeners are just being selected, as Johan said in the "new queue" thread.

Quoting APFPilot1985 (Reply 39):but the new queue limits arent going to do that at all.
Have a look at the queue, since the new system was implemented, the number of photos / day went down constantly!

If you dont have spots left in your queue you can't upload them to email for priority screening.

Why did it take so long to realize that new screeners were needed. I can appreciate the fact that they have to be trained but it was obvious months ago that new screeners were needed.

The queue has gone down but no more than 400 shots a day. The same amount of uploads are still going to be happening they have just been redistributed amongst photographers.
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SignalOne
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:27 am

Hi,

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 41):
Jetphotos.net does not employ screeners like Airliners.net, from what I understand. The process there is that each picture is looked at once, by a 'screener' and then accepted to the database. The purpose of this 1-person screening is to make sure that the total garbage, non aviation, and stolen images do not make it into the site.

Hate to be picky but You can still get Photos rejected on JetPhotos, they don't accept just anything on that site.

I agree the screening process needs to be faster, and I do know there is a life outside Airliners.net, but wouldn't you sooner have your Photo's screened quicker? This may not be possible, as the screeners have lifes too but faster is better than slower in this case.

I think that there should just be a "Fast Screen" where rare Photos are put into (not just anything, if I Photo is not supposed to be in there its rejected straight away), as the current Priority Screen based on e-mails Sounds (I have not used it) a bit old-fashioned for our site.

S1
Golf - Bravo Romeo India Foxtrot
 
EGGD
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:31 am

This has been happening since other websites started up and Airliners.net started cracking down on crap photos, get over it.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:34 am

Hate to be picky but You can still get Photos rejected on JetPhotos, they don't accept just anything on that site

Have a read what I wrote here:

The purpose of this 1-person screening is to make sure that the total garbage, non aviation, and stolen images do not make it into the site.

Yes, there are rejections. But it has to be REALLY bad to be rejected.

Anyways, my opinion is that JetPhotos serves a different audience then Airliners.net, and there is nothing wrong with that.

On a personal note, I think any site that has 3 pop-ups launching every time I go there is really lame.
 
atco
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:38 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 41):
Jetphotos.net does not employ screeners like Airliners.net, from what I understand. The process there is that each picture is looked at once, by a 'screener' and then accepted to the database. The purpose of this 1-person screening is to make sure that the total garbage, non aviation, and stolen images do not make it into the site.

Airliners.net employs a team approach, each picture that is accepted is looked at by at least three screeners and there is open discussion between the screening team about the merits and flaws of most images. That's why it takes longer, more time is spent insuring a quality product is put out there for you.

Your understanding is incorrect
Canon through and through
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:53 am

so as not to be just bitching, i have a proposal for making the screening go faster.
So as not to compromise quality and maintain a 3 screener approach why not set it up like this.

Tier one screeners:
View the photos for a first quick glance, weed out all of the junk and non av related stuff as well as those that obviously wont get through. These screeners would not have direct add options and should only spend a very short time on each photo. They arent getting to the minutiae but rather just a quick general view.
Tier two screeners:
These screeners have a good look at the photo and check its merits as well as its quality, they do have direct add options as well as the ability to leave for the head screeners. They spend a good amount of time on each photo (but as they are more skilled and have less dander to deal with it will still result in less time in screening.)
Tier three screeners:
These would be the most experienced screeners there are. They would screen only the HQ queue and again wouldn't have to spend much time on each photo as they have already been reviewed twice and unless a screener missed a glaring flaw are going to most likely be added.

With this system the talents of a screener are most wisely used and the screening process becomes more efficient.
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law4fun
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:56 am

Anthony, You just made my respected user list.

Johan, take a powder pal...settle down a little. Some criticism of the site is not the end of the world. With that attitude, I am surprised you have not had a stroke by now. I am frankly surprised that this thread is still seeing the light of day and that it has not been either quashed completely or locked down at the very least as it seems like anything critical doesn't stay open for long.

Royal, from my understanding, JP.net has 3 screeners look at pics with any screener being able to direct add (sounds familiar doesn't it...). As far as the popups there, they are irritating to say the least. Pay the $ for elite level and they go away. At least they don't require you to pay monthly for the "privilege" of posting in the forums.
Canon Shutter Slut
 
MidnightMike
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RE: Something Needs To Be Done At Airliners.net

Sat Jun 18, 2005 1:58 am

Quoting Administrator (Reply 34):
Would you like to have your photos screened by someone with a lower acceptance ratio than you? I select the screeners with great care. They need to be excellent photographers, among the top 1% on the site. This means their acceptance ratio is bound to be very high.

I know some of the airliners.net screeners and Johan certainly picked the best, one of the screeners in particular is a professional photographer & sells his photos to aviation publications.

Keep the high standards, everybody knows that airliners.net has the best photos.
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