gladave
Posts: 188
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Any Chance?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:09 am

Can anything be done to these shots to make them a.net quality at all?
They were shot at Prestwick today  Smile


Full Size


Full Size


Full Size


Full Size

Also saw the Ryanair EI-CJG and noticed this:

Full Size
Anyone know what happened to the old door?
Looks like quite a bit of patch up work been done to the bottom left of it


(me thinks me doing pretty good:
Air Force One, Boeing 727 and an Airbus A340-300 at PIK in a week  Smile)
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norfolkjohn
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RE: Any Chance?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:29 am

Dave,

Some of the more experienced guys might be able to offer some suggestions but If they were my shots I would not try to get them accepted onto the ANet DB. They are nice enough pics but I think they would be difficult to get up to standard IMHO.

The first one looks slightly out of focus, the second one the tail looks out of focus, the third is not level with the horizon (probably fixable but not much room left on the crop) but the fence is also a bit obtrusive, the fourth just might have a chance but the lighting is not too good and the last one, for me, is no good because of the fence.

Sorry

John
One thorn of experience is worth a whole wilderness of warning.
 
gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:33 am

the 4th is the one i thought might stand a chance

the 5th is not as an entry really jsut asking bout the door

cheers anyway
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Airplanepics
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RE: Any Chance?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:38 am

Quoting Gladave (Reply 2):
the 5th is not as an entry really jsut asking bout the door

Just a normal skin repair to the fuselarge, the aircraft could of been hit by a Catering truck or vehicle.

Simon.
Simon - London-Aviation.com
 
IL76
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RE: Any Chance?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:43 am

I had a go at #4. The original file is grainy, not completely sharp and kind of dark. It did a superspeed edit, just to give an idea, but it's not fantastic...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v253/edistof/Virgin.jpg
Eduard
 
gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 6:48 am

Simon,
Cheers for that info, was just curious thats all as it looks like its a different door on the thing as the lines dont quite match

Eduard
looks much better, i will have a go at them when im free and will see what happens

(fingers crossed im good enough to get #1 in a.net :p)

David
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gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 3:42 pm

There is a whole load more that i have uploaded from yesterday, if someone has time and thinks with some playing around, any of them can make it let me know what numbers and ill have a go

http://planepic.fotopic.net

cheers to all that have looked

David
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norfolkjohn
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RE: Any Chance?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:38 pm

Dave,

I've had a quick look at your other shots and I think there are quite a few in the nearly but not quite category in terms of getting them up to ANet acceptance standard. I like the fact that you are trying different angles and some close-ups this help to make shots a bit different which can help with acceptance.

I see two basic problems across all of the shots. Firstly they are a bit dark due to the fact it was obviously a dull day. I realize there is nothing you can do about the local weather (I grew up in SW Scotland) but IF the sun is out that really is the time to get down to the airport.

The second problem is a lack of sharpness. I suspect that many of the shots are either fractionally out of focus or suffering from slight camera shake and if this is the case no amount of editing will get them up to ANet standard although you can probably make significant improvements to a lot of them which would be good practice. (I still try and salvage a lot of my own duds just to see what I can and can't manage to fix but I don't try to get these onto A.Net)

I don't know a lot about the camera you use but I think it is a Minolta DiMAGE Z1 ? If so a quick Google Search tells me it is a 3.2 mega-pixel camera with a 10X optical zoom and a further x4 digital magnification. Apologies if I've got this wrong but if this is the case you are at the bottom end of the equipment likely to be needed to get acceptable shots - especially in bad light with a moving subject. This is probably what is driving the lack of sharpness problem. Short of changing equipment I would say try to shoot in bright weather when ever possible and avoid anything that is moving fast (taxing should be OK). I would also say do not use the digital zoom as this always degrades quality (optical zoom should not be too bad).

Getting back to the pics I would also suggest you always check the DB and look for aircraft that are not too well represented (only a few shots already in DB) as this again tends to help with acceptance but the shots will still need to be high quality regardless of subject. With this in mind the first shot of the German Learjet D-CAPO is a possibility as there only 5 shots in the DB and none in the UK. The Ryanair 737-800 EI-DAS only has a bout a page full and none at PIK so again an outside chance. However the Learjet definitely looks a little blurry and you are clipping the tail on the 737-800. I would try working on these two and see what you can produce. If you are happy with the results you can have a go at submitting them but don't build your hopes up too much. The other one you might have a play with is the Virgin A-340 on short finals. You will need to crop it in a fair bit which will probably affect the quality but you can see how it looks.

Hope this is of some help - keep practicing and have fun !

All the best

John  Smile
One thorn of experience is worth a whole wilderness of warning.
 
Psych
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RE: Any Chance?

Sat Jul 16, 2005 5:55 pm

John - I have to congratulate you on that post. This is what the Forum should be all about - helpful, considered replies that move things forward. Well done to you for taking the time to do that.

You also summarise many of the points that I think apply to Dave's shots. There is definitely a quality issue with the camera Dave is using, in terms of reaching A.net standards. The one thing I would add to your comments is that there is more chance of success getting as close as possible to the subject, thus reducing the reliance on the zoom. Definitely using the digital zoom is a no-no.

Dave - I forgot to ask you in my email - what editing software do you have access to?

Paul
 
norfolkjohn
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RE: Any Chance?

Sun Jul 17, 2005 12:26 am

Paul,

Thanks for your kind comments. I quite agree that getting close Is also a good idea when ever possible.

All the best,

John  Smile
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gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:19 pm

John
Thank you very much for your comments, those are comments that I have been waiting for since i started to post images up here.

The camera is the Z1 from Konica, I know its not the best but im a student so budget is an issue  Sad
I dont use the digital zoom, i never have done.

The pictures are getting better than what they used to be, just wish i could get that one that is good enough to get on a.net, would really boost my moral and cheer me up alot.

I am off tomorrow so I may go to glasgow, but I will deffinatly try editing the pictures you suggested and see what i can do, and post the results

Paul, i am using photoshop 7.
where i am really is the closest i can get to the subject sadly  Sad

Once again thank you for your comments guys
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gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Sun Jul 17, 2005 4:46 pm

Ok here are two of the edits i have been sent, which i have played around and mostly take away the noise

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/dspalton/Virgin_filtered.jpg


http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/dspalton/PICT1551_filtered.jpg
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GPHOTO
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RE: Any Chance?

Sun Jul 17, 2005 5:06 pm

Hi Dave,

They now look a bit plasticky, but the grain has gone. One problem gone, another one arrives. The grass has suffered too. I used to have this problem with my noise removal techniques as well, so don't worry, it isn't easy. Is it possible with your set up to try these steps?:

1. Reduce the level of noise removal to prevent "plastickyness". If using Neatimage, you can play with the sliders, both luminance and chrominance channels may need adjusting differentlt for different photos and try not to go above 40% on the luminance channel. Chrominance channel doesn't often get moved by people (it's 100% by default), but you may need to lower this as well if you are struggling.

Also make sure you use the Auto Fine Tune and Suto Complete buttons after the Rough Noise Analysis step. Sometimes helps, sometimes makes things worse.

You could also try moving the Rough Noise Analysis box to a different part of the photo. The one that is chosen by default is not always the best. Depends on the photo.

The trouble with this is you can spend ages messing with NeatImage, whereas it is mostly commonly used as a quick noise removal filter. But the results can be worth it.

2. What would really help is to be able to apply noise removal only to the airframe. Does PS7 have noise removal? Can you draw around the edges of the aircraft and then apply noise removal only to the airframe? (Yes it takes b****y ages). Same applies to the sky - is there a magic wand function that lets you select the sky areas and then noise reduce them seperately from the other parts of the image?

3. Just a check - always apply noise reduction before resizing the image. This way less fine detail will be lost.

Best of luck.

Best Regards,

Jim
Erm, is this thing on?
 
AIHTOURS
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RE: Any Chance?

Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:38 pm

Dave,

I'll have a go at editing them for you, I can do that without harming the grass. When I see you around i'll teach you how to reduce the noise without harming other features of the Picture. It would be easier on msn because you can ask questions etc... Big grin

AIHTOURS
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gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Sun Jul 17, 2005 6:51 pm

ryan, cheers that would be good.

all those pics are at http://planepic.fotopic.net (ill change so tis full size ones there for you)

a good mate recons this is a good pic

Full Size
what you guys think

[Edited 2005-07-17 11:55:57]
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norfolkjohn
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RE: Any Chance?

Sun Jul 17, 2005 8:55 pm

Hi again Dave,

I see you are getting good advice on the editing front - thanks to GPHOTO and AIHTOURS for their time and effort.

I have just a few other more general comments that may, or may not, help.

First on grain - I think you can alter the ISO / ASA setting on the Z1 and from what I've seen of the specifications quoted on the web the range is 50-400. I don't know what you are using normally but I would strongly recommend you keep it set to ISO 100 (or even 50 if the light is good) as this should minimize grain / noise as far as possible.

On equipment I fully understand your budget restrictions and I am not suggesting that you rush out and get a different camera at the moment but I would suggest you start thinking about what realistically you might be able to afford in the foreseeable future. Ideally the best thing is to get a digital SLR and while the price of new kit is probably going to be prohibitive for you for quite some time, second hand MAY be a practical proposition if you are able to save up over a year or so. For example you can pick up a mint condition EOS 300D with an EFS 18-55 lens for about £400 and prices may drop as more people upgrade to newer digital SLR's. I realize this probably sounds an awful lot of money but if you could save £7.50 a week you would have the money in a year. Just a thought.

The only other suggestion I can make about trying to get shots on the ANet DB is consider your photographic opportunities for aircraft other than airliners at major airports. I know that there are limited opportunities up in Scotland but if you have the chance to visit a local flying club see if they would let you photograph their aircraft - a relatively easy static subject and quite possibly a registration ot two not on the DB ? Similarly any possibility of visits to museums, fly-ins, air displays (static shots probably best bet) take the camera and see what you can get.

Once again all the best, good luck and keep plugging away !

John  Smile
One thorn of experience is worth a whole wilderness of warning.
 
Psych
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RE: Any Chance?

Sun Jul 17, 2005 9:40 pm

Hi again David,

I'm afraid to say that I would think the Cargolux is a non-starter. Two key factors for A.net before even a close look are the fact that the white of the fuselage is already a bit overexposed - very little you will be able to do about that. Also that fencing is not flattering for the photo and does obstruct the main gear - many have been known to get badmotive rejections for such a thing.

Once again, John has given some great additional advice. Another extra thing from me - I wouldn't recommend editing a shot that has already been edited - the quality is bound to suffer from being saved twice. Best to do all the editing in one go and thus only save once. I shall have a look at that original you emailed.

All the best.

Paul
 
gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 10:38 pm

again to you both thank you very much for the help and the comments.
It is very nice to be told the pictures are getting closer to the quality.

I have checked the pictures and i was using ISO 50, so have changed it to 100.
I will prob nip out and see if I can get any shots tomorrow. Today it is raining again *sigh*

The fence is the problem in alot of the shots, numberous factors really.
I can only stay on tip toes for so long, and i dont have any ladders.
WHen i take the jeep i can get higher up due to it being a 4x4 so...
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gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:53 pm

i looked through the images i have and came accross a few of them.

Smaller aircraft.
Its hosted by me and i have the origionals so can take off watermark

http://www.pik.host26.com/special/image.php?imgsrc=PICT0174.JPG
http://www.pik.host26.com/special/image.php?imgsrc=PICT0016.JPG
and an america west on delivery
http://www.pik.host26.com/special/im...php?imgsrc=AmericaWestDelivery.JPG
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bmibaby737
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:31 am

Hey

I'm no pro but what do people think of my edit?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v623/Euroav/Emirates_David_GLA_Editedbirdout.jpg

Thanks - and good luck with your up-loads David!

cya

BmiBaby

[Edited 2005-07-18 18:32:01]
 
gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 1:34 am

hey bmibaby, cheers for the edit, it looks good.
if folk recon it cn get in i might pop it in the queue

GlaDave
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AIHTOURS
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 3:24 am

Hi David,

Here is my edit, I have lightened it up considerably, but as you have some software, you can adjust the lighting accordingly yourself aswell.

http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a214/airscandic/UYU.jpg

Tell me what you think David  

I think that Emirates Photo above is too far away and there is too much grass. What does everyone else think? Have another try at editing that Photo BmiBaby737, you'll improve with every Photo!  Smile

Keep up the good work David,

Regards
AIHTOURS   

[Edited 2005-07-18 20:26:40]
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gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:02 am

ryan, that looks a bit grainy, or is that just my eyes?
it does look much better though

woudl that make the cut?
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MADtoCAE
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:02 am

Hi,
Is there a editing guide for Paint Shop Pro 8?
Thanks
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AIHTOURS
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:35 am

Hello,

Quoting Gladave (Reply 22):
ryan, that looks a bit grainy, or is that just my eyes?
it does look much better though

woudl that make the cut?

It is still grainy, I cannot do anything with that kind of grain I'm afraid. Whever it will make the cut of not, I am not sure on this one. My advice is to maybe just leave it, and when you get some Photos with good weather, edit them. I know you are short on time and things, but I can see you getting at least one nice day this Summer.

If you see a Virgin A340 one day, its going to happen again.  Smile

Cheers, AIHTOURS
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Gofly
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:57 am

Quoting MADtoCAE (Reply 23):
Hi,
Is there a editing guide for Paint Shop Pro 8?
Thanks

Will a photoshop work flow do?  Smile

http://rockymountainavphotos.com/Eric/workflow.html

-Gofly
Living the high life on my ex-Airliners.net Moderator pension...
 
norfolkjohn
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:21 am

Dave,

Me again - First ISO settings - If the light is good then using 50 if fine as this will be minimum possible grain. I just suggest you don't go above 100 and 100 is a good general purpose setting. Be aware that in bad light a low ISO will drive down shutter speed which can lead to camera shake and blur. If it really is dull you just have to accept that it is unlikely you will get good shots with the type of kit you have and even with the top of the range DSLR shooting in bad light is always a real lottery.

Now to your pics :-

The A340 shot although improved in some ways has probably just about been edited to death and unfortunately I don't think that, realistically, it would be a candidate for the DB.

The Emirates A330 is probably the closest I have seen yet to being up to the mark. Again it is a little dull due to the nature of the lighting and I think there is a slight green / yellow cast but that could be my monitor. I also think it might want fractional clockwise rotation (but I do mean only a fraction). However AIHTOURS is correct in saying that the aircraft is a little too far away and there is too much grass. This would be fixable by going for a tighter crop. (pull it right in and cut off the wing tips - I think that would look much better). The problem is that as you only had about 3M pixels to start with by the time you get the crop tight enough the image quality has fallen off because of the relatively small number of pixels left and as a result you would almost certainly not make it onto the DB.

Dave, I know you are desperate to get pics on the DB but just take your time - wait for a nice bright day - get yourself to a good spot (avoiding the dreaded fence) - or a different location - optimize your camera settings as best you can - pick a slow moving or static subject - come home select the least common and most attractive shots and then carefully edit them. All this will probably not come together tomorrow but the day will come. Remember also that you are using pretty basic kit so you are having to work harder than many of the folks that are getting shots on the DB to start with.

What ever happens - do not give up - keep working away but don't rush your fences.

All the best,

John  Smile
One thorn of experience is worth a whole wilderness of warning.
 
gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 6:50 am

john thank you for the words again i will have a shot on the a330, on a side note
the virgin got accepted to JP.net (search photographer as pikteam).

Are any of the smaller jets there up to the mark or are they both well off from it?
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Psych
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:36 am

Hello again David,

Well done on getting your photo accepted.

I don't wish to pour cold water on your success, but I have to say that I am surprised it got on - this might add fuel to the debate some have had recently about the relative quality standards of A.net vs. JP, as there's no way A.net would accept that degree of what would be called digital manipulation. I have to say I am surprised that JP accepted it, because the noise reduction is very evident - that plasticky look to the plane and the effect it has on textures such as the grass.

You need to be careful how you use such a program to reduce grain, and if I were you I would try the other strategies mentioned above. For me - with your equipment - the quality of the light will be key, as will the ISO you use and getting as close as you can to the subject.

Take care.

Paul
 
norfolkjohn
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 7:41 am

Dave,

Congratulations on the A340 making it on JP - proof that you are making progress !  bigthumbsup 

Unfortunately I can't get the links to the other three pictures to work at the moment.

I'll contact you direct shortly.

A.T.B.

John
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gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Tue Jul 19, 2005 4:24 pm

i am surprized as well, after what has been said in the forum, however Big grin

The weather is not too bright today, so i think i will just go to PIK to see if i can make use of some of the things you have suggested.

Once again thank you for the help

David
:D
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gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 2:50 am

Ok instead of opening a new thread, ill reply to here.
do any of these shots stand a chance?

Tri-Star at PIK

Full Size


Full Size

Grumman

Full Size


Full Size

and a herc

Full Size
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norfolkjohn
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RE: Any Chance?

Mon Jul 25, 2005 6:48 am

Hi Dave,

From the top : There are 99 shots of CS-TMX already in the DB. Your first one is too far away and you don't have enough resolution to crop it in tight enough. The second one is a little over exposed, soft, not level and the fence is annoying. It can be improved but I had a quick play with it and I don't think you would get it up to a good enough standard for A.Net although it is a nice picture.

GIIB N24YS both nice shots but the first one is too far away and again if you crop it close enough you will not have enough picture left to work on. The second one is a possible. Needs the exposure correcting in levels, the horizon leveling and a little sharpening to start with. It is a bit grainy and may look worse after the initial editing so it may then need a careful use of Neat Image. I think it has some potential but not a dead cert by any means.

C-130 92-3024. I would say this has the best chance. Only one other pic in the DB and the basic shot looks pretty good. Needs a slight adjustment to the horizon and I would crop it in a bit then slight exposure correction in levels. The only real problem I can see is that the tail looks soft and it just might be a little blurred (camera shake ?). If you can sharpen up the tail I think you would have a fairly good chance but if the tail (look at the serial) is blurred you would almost definitely get a rejection.

Regards,

John
One thorn of experience is worth a whole wilderness of warning.
 
gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:19 am

what do you think norfolkjohn?
http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/dspalton/PICT1673_filtered.jpg



[Edited 2005-07-26 21:26:42]
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AIHTOURS
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RE: Any Chance?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:39 am

David,

The Photos is great, but there is one problem with it what will cause it to be rejected as far as I know.

The Grass, and Tree's have been smudged, and the Runway looks like a painting. Neat Image I'm afraid, and you need to learn how to use it properly if you are going to use it at all.

Take a look at this link:

http://www.rockymountainavphotos.com/Kyle/Workflows/Workflows.htm

Click Ferguls' workflow. This is the one which showed me how to avoid Neat Image spoiling Photos.

Don't think I am getting at you here David, I just hate to see a Photo spoilt by the Incorrect use of Neat Image. Its' a useful Program if you can use it correctly. You will learn, trust me  Wink

I used to use it wrong myself, look at this:


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Ryan Mcgrath U.K



If you would like me to show you how to use it without wrecking the Photo, I will be happy to send screenshots via msn etc..

Best Regards,
AIHTOURS  Smile
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gladave
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RE: Any Chance?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:46 am

i was using a different work flow, one for photoshop cs

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/dspalton/PICT1560_filtered.jpg
any better, no grass in there :p
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AIHTOURS
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RE: Any Chance?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:13 am

Did you use Neat Image?

It looks as though you have. You'll know when its a better Photo when your trees don't look like a painting  Smile

Quoting Gladave (Reply 35):
any better, no grass in there

That's O.K, but how long will it be until you get a Photo with grass in?

Have a go the Magic Wond trick I showed you  Smile

Keep up the hard work!

AIHTOURS
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norfolkjohn
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RE: Any Chance?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:27 am

Hi Dave,

I tend to agree with AIHTOURS comments with regard to Neat Image. I don't use it on my digital shots but I do use it when I scan negatives from my old prints. I just use the basic automatic settings - auto profile, auto fine tune - then set the sharpening to 70% and accept the result. If it looks OK I put the shot back into PS Elements and recheck levels and possibly add one pass of light sharpening. This sometimes works but sometimes it looks like plastic ! When this happens I usually just file the original (pre Neat Image) shot and try another picture. Not much help I know !

Getting back to the C-130 and the Ryanair 737 they are both good, but there are still problems and as I think they are in the editing I'm starting to get a bit out of my depth on the advice front but here are my thoughts for what they are worth.

There has been a bit of a problem with the use of Neat Image and I think AIHTOURS is assisting you with this.

The next problem, which might be partly related to Neat Image as well, is that the aircraft somehow look detached from the background. Not sure if you are working in different layers but if so there may be an issue with the way you are merging them or using flatten image. This is getting into deep water in terms of my knowledge so if there any of the editing experts reading this they might like to comment. If this could be sorted out the C-130 shot would look pretty good but you may be getting close to the point where it is edited to death.

There is another problem with both shots in terms of the crop. This is easy to fix if there is enough image left to alter the crop or you are willing to go back to the original and start from scratch with a different crop. The problem is that the aircraft are both now rather low in the picture. To correct this you need to crop out some of the sky from the top of the frame and bring in the sides to keep the aspect ratio. Don't worry if you cut off the wing tips that is not a problem. Unfortunately if you do crop in from where you are now I fear you will be below minimum dimensions in which case the only option is back to the original. Although the target size is 768 high by 1024 wide I would not worry if a height of 768 gave you a width of up to about 1100 if it looked OK.

The Ryanair 737 is still soft and I don't think it will really sharpen any further. The fuselage is also pretty burnt out and this would be difficult to fix. I think it is one for your personal album rather than A.Net.

If you are going to have another go from scratch, and I think it would be worthwhile, I would concentrate on the C-130. If you can incorporate everything you have learned in recent weeks it may well be worth submitting it (just one shot after all) and let the real judges - the screeners - give a verdict.

Sorry that I can't give more specific advice on the editing but hope the above is of some help.

As others have said - Keep Up The Good Work  bigthumbsup 
One thorn of experience is worth a whole wilderness of warning.
 
Psych
Posts: 2944
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: Any Chance?

Wed Jul 27, 2005 7:16 am

Hi David,

I see you have had some more excellent advice here.

I have just had a look at the images and agree with many of the comments. The Hercules looks like a shot with potential, but the image above does look very blotchy. As before, I would be very happy to have a go with the original to see what I can do if you would like - just email me as before.

That Virgin tail shot has that colour cast again, which would be a problem, together with overall problems of quality.

Cheers.

Paul

P.S. Norfolkjohn - if you read this, I was wanting to contact you, but am unable to do so via your profile. If possible, drop me an email through my profile and I can get back to you.

[Edited 2005-07-27 00:27:00]

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