andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:18 am

OK I need some serious help on this one. My blood is BOILING. WOOO-saaaah.  banghead 

While at one of my client's flight operations desks the other night, I notice a sign on a wall from a photography company based out of Lubbock, Texas. They are selling a canvas print that consists of two of my images super-imposed on top of each other.

Here are the two photos in question, right off of airliners.net:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Freight-Dawg - Airside Photography
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Freight-Dawg - Airside Photography


Here are their prices:

8x10 - $80.00
11x14 - $100.00
16x20 - $145.00
20x24 - $185.00
24x30 - $225.00

This lady is a professional photographer, and does wedding and portrait packages. She knows damn well what she is doing is illegal. She's offering these photos to the crews and general public.

I have never been contacted by her, and I have not given permission for such prints to be created, manipulated or sold. God only knows how many she's already sold and profited from.

Not only am I not getting any money from the deal - she even cropped off my name on the images. I guess my time, effort, knowledge, skill and $3,000.00 in equipment isn't worth anything to her.

For all of you who hate seeing watermarks - this is precisely why the watermarks exists. I wish I had watermarked every image I've uploaded. Recently I started adding them, and believe me - I will be putting BOLD watermarks all over my images from this day forward.

I'm thinking about sending her a decease and decist letter (yes, the pun was intended), and I'm considering legal action for damages and recovering some kind of money from her sales of my images.  biting 

I need help with this, I don't know where to start. Do I send her the letter myself? Or should I call Johnny Cochrane and have HIM do it for me???

Thank you all for your help.

Andrew
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
syncmaster
Posts: 1926
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2002 9:55 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:22 am

I was with Andrew when he saw this, lets just say that I don't think I've ever seen his face that red before. Anyone seen the red on the Christmas Starbucks cups?

-Charlie
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:28 am

His face was that red? Wow that would piss me off, especially since this almost seems like an "inside job." This is definetly something you need to fight hard.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
User avatar
clickhappy
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RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:41 am

First thing you should stop doing is uploading at large file sizes (bigger than 1024 x) as this just increases the chances of getting ripped off. You should also get a copy or two of the sign you saw, as proof of what is going on.

I wouldn't waste my time sending her a letter and/or calling, you are past that. Retain a lawyer who is willing to do the work for a cut of the take, and send them in.

Whatever you do, do it right. Take a deep breath and calm down, getting mad won't help or even fix the situation. It is what it is.

Good luck, lots of us have been there before.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:43 am

PS - Johnny Cochrane died. But a Google search for Copyright Lawyers might help you along
 
INNflight
Posts: 3526
Joined: Tue Apr 13, 2004 5:11 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:49 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
wouldn't waste my time sending her a letter and/or calling, you are past that.

Agreed!

Looks like huge $$$'s for you Andrew. Go and get this lady.
Jet Visuals
 
nirmalmakadia
Posts: 213
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:08 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:53 am

Andrew……

I think you deserve a payment. If I where you, I would take a picture of the sign that is advertising the Picture as a proof. Then I would send them a letter through registered post asking for the payment and attach the picture of the sign with the letter. I would ask for a handsome amount because using a Copyrighted material for commercial benefits is offence. If they won’t give a budge with that, than I would go through a lawyer.

I don’t know if this is right…

Regards

Nirmal
 
timdegroot
Posts: 3258
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 10:37 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 6:59 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 3):
First thing you should stop doing is uploading at large file sizes (bigger than 1024 x)

Good point Royal. This will also dramatically decrease the rejections here on A.net.

Tim
Alderman Exit
 
Mexicana757
Posts: 2633
Joined: Fri Apr 20, 2001 3:21 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:06 am

Hey Drew

Sorry that this has happened to you. I suggest you get a lawyer and send this woman a letter of your intentions to sue for stealing copyright material. She broke the law and is selling copyright work as her own. She is also selling it for profit and has altered your pictures. Make sure you lawyer outlines everything that she has done wrong and what the consequences will be. And the money she has made off those photos is yours not hers.

I hate it when people take others hard work and claim as their own.
 
nirmalmakadia
Posts: 213
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2005 8:08 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:10 am

Quoting Mexicana757 (Reply 8):
hate it when people take others hard work and claim as their own.

Absolutely
 
mygind66
Posts: 1033
Joined: Sun May 02, 2004 7:13 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:31 am

Quoting AndrewUber (Thread starter):
and I'm considering legal action for damages and recovering some kind of money from her sales of my images

Hi Andrew...

Start and end with this. Do not contact her. Leave this to your lawyer.
Good luck

Enrique
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:20 am

Quoting Nirmalmakadia (Reply 6):
I would ask for a handsome amount because using a Copyrighted material for commercial benefits is offence.

He can ask for all he wants, they will laugh, and say "Let's go to court". Copyright infringement first must be proven. Proof that the photo is his, and not just similar. Let's say it is. Then, he has to prove what income he is loosing by the sale of "his" image. This will be done partially by looking at the tax he is paying to the IRS on the sale of his previous works. Hopefully he is reporting and paying tax on ALL his photo sales. If not, he may be in for a surprise. So, the IRS amounts are checked and if the judge finds sufficient evidence of infringement, he will only award the loss amount and possibly court fees, no guarantee on them.

I use a lawyer and a CPA for two businesses, the lawyer's fee's start at $300 per hour, that is just to sit in front of his desk, the CPA is a bit cheaper at $200-$250 per, but that is not for consultation.

She may even claim the photo was taken from the public domain, or even purchased them from one of those "Ebay" CD's or DVD's....

Good luck with it. Your best hope is that a letter will scare them into payment.
 
andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 8:26 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 11):
Copyright infringement first must be proven. Proof that the photo is his, and not just similar.

There is a sample canvas with my photos on it in Flight Ops. I will go get a picture of it tonight. And I already have a copy of their advertisement and price list associated with the photo.

I called their office today, but got voicemail. I will not answer their call when (or if) they call me back. All I said in my message is that I saw the flyer, and wanted more information. I did not lead on that I was upset or that there was any problem whatsoever. I didn't leave my name, either.

I'll keep you all posted. If anyone knows any kick-ass copyright lawyers - please let me know. Thank you all for your help.

Drew
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
vasanthd
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue May 17, 2005 8:35 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 9:45 am

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 12):
All I said in my message is that I saw the flyer, and wanted more information.

I hope she doesn't read this post....Hope everything turns good and $$. Good luck.
--Vas
One Lucky shot deserves another!
 
DB777
Posts: 864
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RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:04 am

Andrew, I would gather some information about copyrights from
http://www.copyright.gov/
and then register the two works with the Copyright Office for $30 each.

Contrary to what Jeff said above, you are entitled to statutory damages and your attorney's fees if you register your images. If you don't register them then you are only entitled to actual loss of damages and profits. I don't think the copyright violator will laugh and say "Let's go to court" when they find out that you will receive statutory damages, your legal fees plus your damages and loss of profits when they lose the case. You have the violator by the short hairs at this point so to speak so keep that in mind in determining how much to ask for.

Here's some information from the copyright site for those too laid back to check it out: (I bold printed the pertinent part about statutory damages and your attorney fees)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

COPYRIGHT REGISTRATION

In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright. However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration. Among these advantages are the following:

Registration establishes a public record of the copyright claim.

Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin.

If made before or within 5 years of publication, registration will establish prima facie evidence in court of the validity of the copyright and of the facts stated in the certificate.

If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.

Registration allows the owner of the copyright to record the registration with the U. S. Customs Service for protection against the importation of infringing copies. For additional information, request Publication No. 563 "How to Protect Your Intellectual Property Right," from: U.S. Customs Service, P.O. Box 7404, Washington, D.C. 20044. See the U.S. Customs Service Website at www.customs.gov for online publications.

Registration may be made at any time within the life of the copyright. Unlike the law before 1978, when a work has been registered in unpublished form, it is not necessary to make another registration when the work becomes published, although the copyright owner may register the published edition, if desired.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
 
F9Widebody
Posts: 1475
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2003 5:47 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:08 pm

Quoting DB777 (Reply 14):
If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions.

Unfortunately, these images wouldn't apply to either of those circumstances.

Regards
YES URLS in signature!!!
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:24 pm

Seems Don didn't do his homework.

Quoting F9Widebody (Reply 15):
Unfortunately, these images wouldn't apply to either of those circumstances.

Unfortunate.
 
DB777
Posts: 864
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2001 1:16 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 1:26 pm

The 3-month after publication is ambiguous and a copyright attorney should be consulted for clarification. Based on other articles I've read, I'm interpreting it to mean published by the copyright violator. Andrew just discovered the infringement. I don't think a court would penalize a copyright owner if it took a while for him/her to discover the infringement. Otherwise everyone and his uncle would be violating copyrights hoping that the copyright owner wouldn't discover the misdeeds within 3 months of publishing date.
Photographing aircraft since the Earth was flat and on Airliners.net since #338
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:31 pm

Quoting DB777 (Reply 17):
The 3-month after publication is ambiguous

?? There is already precedent on cases like these, what makes you say ambiguous?

Quoting DB777 (Reply 17):
and a copyright attorney should be consulted for clarification

I already have, did you think I made the stuff up I posted? Or just copied it from some website?

This is a pretty cut and dried statement...

Quoting DB777 (Reply 14):
If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work,
 
andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:38 pm

Update -

My lovely wife found out about this - and she's megapissed. She had a good idea though - she's ordering me one tomorrow. She plans to buy one and get a receipt so we'll have some hard evidence in the case.

I also am on my way to flight operations right now to shoot a pic of the offending canvas - I'll post it here in an hour or two (with full copyright information, of course).

I think this "professional" is going to wind up financing my new Canon 5D. Maybe some L glass too.

I would also like to propose a "general legal" fund, that all a.net photographers can use to fight these types of cases. I will pledge a portion of any proceeds from this case to start it up.

Let's fight hard, and kick ass.  bigthumbsup 

Drew
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
aviatortj
Posts: 1694
Joined: Wed Jul 16, 2003 9:15 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:56 pm

 arrow   arrow 

Quoting JeffM (Reply 11):
Good luck with it. Your best hope is that a letter will scare them into payment.

I can say from experience that this is the way to go. Be persistent, and be firm. Chances are, if you prove your case, they will just pay up and be done with it. They want to pay for a lawyer as much as you do. Best of luck, and if I can help in any way, feel free to drop me a PM. -t
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:08 pm

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 19):
I think this "professional" is going to wind up financing my new Canon 5D. Maybe some L glass too.

Did you even read any of the above posts? Don's specifically? How much do you sell your images for that one will finance a 5d?
 
dendrobatid
Posts: 1639
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:40 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:43 pm

Quoting AndrewUber (Thread starter):
This lady is a professional photographer,

If she is a professional lady (that can have a different meaning over this side of the Pond) then she is probably a member of a professional photographers Association as that usually helps to get work. Found out now who they are.

Plagiarism is one of their most serious offences. When the time is right, make sure they know, perhaps by copying correspondence to them. The shame of getting found out might make her pay up

Good luck

Mick Bajcar
 
andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:45 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 21):
Did you even read any of the above posts?

Gosh, no, I only started this thread. Maybe that's a good idea???  sarcastic 

Quoting JeffM (Reply 21):
How much do you sell your images for that one will finance a 5d?

Perhaps I was exaggerating a bit? Perhaps I was being a bit dramatic? Perhaps I was kidding? Perhaps I was kidding when I said I would ask her to "decease and desist"???

In the future I will draw a picture for you. (By that I mean that when I say something, I will explain my comments more thoroughly).
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 3:52 pm

Here it is:
http://www.drew.charliej.net/albums/userpics/10002/some_bullshit.jpg

Both of my photos were very obviously used in this image. I did blur out the face and nameplate.

Drew

[Edited 2005-12-02 07:53:57]
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
DLKAPA
Posts: 7962
Joined: Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:37 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:08 pm

Holy crap she calls herself a professional? That's got to be one of the worst copy/paste jobs I've ever seen. I wonder if she's made anything off it.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:26 pm

I agree. You should see this horror in person. It really makes my photos look terrible. I think a four year old with a pair of scissors and some Elmer's glue could do a better job.

Drew

Edit for JeffM - I'm making an example with the child and scissors thing. It's a metaphor, if you will.

[Edited 2005-12-02 08:31:24]
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
dendrobatid
Posts: 1639
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:40 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:28 pm

Pretty grim isn't it ?
I think your first problem will be when she says prove they're your photos (which she will).
They are so adulterated that that is not going to be easy.
Amazing how this photgrapher (in the loosest possible sense) has f**ked up two good photos and come up with a piece of garbage like that.

Mick Bajcar
 
andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:31 pm

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 27):
They are so adulterated that that is not going to be easy.

It's extremely easy. There are plenty of shadows and other things that are very easily identifiable on the photos. Look at the wing on the 727. Half of the wing is in the sun (because it was backlit). Look at the 737 nose gear - it's wet. There is water on the ramp near it, and dripping off of the nose. The tail is even a bit washed out because of the water spray.

There are lots of ways to see these are the same. They are very very obvious when you see them in person.

[Edited 2005-12-02 08:37:18]
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 5:40 pm

Recourse to lawyers, as others have said, is very expensive - hardly justifiable unless you earn a lot of money from aviation photography.

I think your best course would be to write a strong letter to the professional photographer concerned, pointing out that she has used your photos illegally; asking for monetary compensation; and telling her that if she does it again you will take legal action.

You may not get any money. If you do not, I would not pursue the matter - it would cost too much.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
Gary2880
Posts: 1856
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:52 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:14 pm

After all the amount u've lost amount you pay the IRS the amount this that and the other.

Should it not come down that someone has stolen copyrighted materiel and is selling it without said photographer knowing??

If she was able to sell that crap, she would have made more if she sold them as they were taken.

Far as I could tell if you didn't nip it in the bud and let it linger possibly people may think that you were the one that stole it? I wouldn't fancy having a photograph floating around where people are not sure who the owner is. so yes I think you should get the money she has made off it. And get her a dishonorable discharge from the photographers union... Or whatever it is ..
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
BO__einG
Posts: 2646
Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2000 5:20 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:20 pm

Man Jeff, lighten up. The guy has had two great pictures stolen by some dumb bitch claiming to be a "professional" photographer. I sure as hell would not be happy if this had happened to me. Hell I may even consider quitting aviation photography altogether as the costs and sacrifices would not be worth it.
Stealing copyright material is really really bad. At campus here, it is treated as a death wish. Immediate ejection if caught and banned forever.

I find it atrocoius that this monstrocity of "work" she has done in that posted example is selling for that kind of amount.
I think some important points are being made here by other users and Andrew himself. A letter with a firm commanding position is a good start. The letter should act as the first weapon to use against this bitch. I believe in this case caps lock usage for certain parts such as some sort of ultimatum would be appropriate to catch her attention.
Secondly, I also like how the wife of yours is buying the evidence to use it against her as that may be important.
ALso if you have the original file extracted right out of the camera like the raw file, it may come in handy too. exif data and other file info.
Also maybe witnesses such as the pilot who was in the 737 taxxing towards you under the waterspray, if you can find him and talk to him, you can maybe get backup.

For that ugly ass work, what is with the pilot in the pict? Is that part of the shit work she is selling or something that the client just pasted onto?
Does she have a website, or are there any information about her such as what clients she dealt with, or location?

Overall, I wish you the best of luck and I hope that she does apoligize and compensate you for any and all damages and loss she caused. Otherwise I hope she gets her ass whooped, and become an ugly and lonely person for life.

FOr a.net, bolded copyright title is a good start, and uploading at 1024 resolution from now on will help or better yet, stop uploading to this site if you have to and set up your own portfolio on pbase or something.

 crossfingers  crossfingers for your pursuit for justice.
Follow @kimbo_snaps on Instagram or bokimon- on Flickr to see more pics of me and my travels.
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 7:41 pm

Quoting Bo__einG (Reply 31):
I hope she gets her ass whooped, and become an ugly and lonely person for life.

Perhaps the death penalty would be appropriate ...

Quoting Bo__einG (Reply 31):
I may even consider quitting aviation photography altogether as the costs and sacrifices would not be worth it.

I'm glad to see you are not over-reacting and taking this calmly ...

Quoting Bo__einG (Reply 31):
caps lock usage for certain parts such as some sort of ultimatum would be appropriate to catch her attention.

Caps lock would make anyone shake with fear. Or better yet, being hit with wet spaghetti.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
pepef
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2002 3:12 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:18 pm

A. So did you ask permission to post a photo of the painting?

B. How much has the income from the sale of those two photos declined since you found out about the painting?

C. Maybe we should start sueing each other if we have similar photos in the database?

The A.net community goes into a frenzy everytime someone's photo is used illegally. Yet very few of the cases have caused anyone any loss of income.

On the other hand you could slap her with this:

Photograph Copyright Notice

"The copyright law grants the copyright owner exclusive right to copy, distribute and create derivative works of his/her/its work in any medium."

-Pepef-
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:49 pm

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 24):
Both of my photos were very obviously used in this image.

I will bet after seeing that canvas you will have a hard time getting a lawyer to represent you. While the resemblance is there, the canvas is a completely new work, that is not a copy of either.

Quoting Dendrobatid (Reply 27):
They are so adulterated that that is not going to be easy.

Exactly.

What she has done, and will use as a defense (not that she will need it) is, she will claim to have used your images as inspiration for a new work. You don't own the rights to any likeness of those planes, you only own the copyright on the two exact images.

It is the same right that millions use when they photograph, draw, etc. likenesses of any work of art or copyrighted material. Just as you have done when you copied the artwork and logo from Kitty Hawk Air Cargo by photographing it.

Quoting Bo__einG (Reply 31):
Man Jeff, lighten up



Quoting Bo__einG (Reply 31):
Hell I may even consider quitting aviation photography altogether as the costs and sacrifices would not be worth it.

Costs? Sacrifices? What in the world are you talking about? It's a hobby, enjoy it, or find something else. And you tell me to "lighten up"? LOL... yea, I'll think about it. Where is Royal's "DRAMA QUEEN" picture when I need it?

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 26):
Edit for JeffM - I'm making an example with the child and scissors thing. It's a metaphor, if you will.

...very nice attempt Andrew.... good luck, you are going to need a ton of it. Maybe if you heed little "Bachelor Bo's" advice and use CAPS LOCK you'll make a strong enough statement, an "Ultimatum", if you will that will scare her into paying you.

ROFLMAO
 
dc10tim
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:21 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:23 am

Why would it be really difficult to show that these two photos are Andrew's? What is the probability that she has managed to either take or source from somewhere else two shots taken at an IDENTICAL angle to the two on a.net?

Having said that, what would constitute a "new" work and a reproduction of a copyrighted image?

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
Jan Mogren
Posts: 2014
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2000 2:47 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:50 am

Andrew,
check your email.

/JM
AeroPresentation - Airline DVD's filmed in High Definition
 
Gary2880
Posts: 1856
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2004 8:52 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:55 am

I would like to make a disclaimer at this point for anyone interested in stealing photographs from airliners.net or any other source

Use Jeff's, he doesn't care, Its

Quoting JeffM (Reply 34):
a hobby

Happy Plagiarism!

Quoting JeffM (Reply 34):
you only own the copyright on the two exact images.

yes... Were not on about the likeness, we are on about as you said, the two exact images.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 34):
Costs?

maybe you should swagger over to your camera bag, how much did that paper weight set you back? Maybe you use your camera for other things that's your choice, I know I do. Some people may only use it for aviation. Fact is most peoples cameras cost up into the thousands. If they can make the money back by photo sales then good for them. Some people may wish to give photos away for free I'm all in favour of that as well, aslong as they have the choice.

To me how much you have lost in wages and earnings is irrelevant. Someone has used a copyrighted photograph, soon as your bony little finger depresses that shutter you own what is digitized onto your cf card. No one has the right to use it without permission.

chasing this woman up should be down to principles no matter if he gets money back or not. Is it ok to walk into someone's garage and use their car? They own it I don't see why should I not be allowed to use it? Because its stealing. Someone has spent time effort working earning money to buy that car. Just because its some prune taking pictures of planes its ok to steal what they have spent time effort skills talents working for to produce it?

[Edited 2005-12-02 17:58:21]
Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel :- Samuel Johnson
 
andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:13 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 34):
While the resemblance is there, the canvas is a completely new work, that is not a copy of either.

Bullshit. Go to Kinko's. Look at what they offer. You can have any image (JPEG, TIFF, GIF, BMP etc) printed onto a canvas. This lady did not sit down with paint brushes and do this herself. Wake up dude, seriously.

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 30):
Far as I could tell if you didn't nip it in the bud and let it linger possibly people may think that you were the one that stole it?

Good point, that would be extremely unfair - and I would be the one who could potentially get in trouble for violating copyrights.

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 30):
Should it not come down that someone has stolen copyrighted materiel and is selling it without said photographer knowing??

Exactly. Some people in this thread appearantly don't realize that when someone steals our work it pisses us off.

Quoting Bo__einG (Reply 31):
ALso if you have the original file extracted right out of the camera like the raw file, it may come in handy too. exif data and other file info.

I have both RAW files, with full EXIF, and they are cataloged on my photo hard disk.

Quoting Bo__einG (Reply 31):
I also like how the wife of yours is buying the evidence to use it against her as that may be important.

She is the love of my life - and I love that she gets involved when I get stomped on. It feels good to have her take interest in my hobby!

Quoting Viv (Reply 32):
Perhaps the death penalty would be appropriate ...

I want to see this lady suffer, but not die. In the end I do not want a new yacht or Gulfstream 5 out of the deal, all I want is to prove a point - crime WILL catch up to you. Stealing my photos is a CRIME, and she deserves appropriate punishment for this.

Quoting Pepef (Reply 33):
A. So did you ask permission to post a photo of the painting?

I took the liberty of posting the image, yes. Considering the base of the image was MY OWN effing work, I don't think that's a problem. Furthermore, I smudged out the face of the pilot (as well as his name on his jacket) for his privacy. Since the original images were mine - I have the constitutional right to do this.

Furthermore - I am not posting her image for a profit.

Quoting Pepef (Reply 33):
B. How much has the income from the sale of those two photos declined since you found out about the painting?

Does it bloody matter??? She is selling MY photos for a profit. Explain how that's legal and ethical in your eyes please??? My losses of sales on my two photos are completely and totally irrelevant. The point is she STOLE MY PHOTOS. That is illegal, and I am taking action. End of story.

Quoting Pepef (Reply 33):
C. Maybe we should start sueing each other if we have similar photos in the database?



Quoting Pepef (Reply 33):
The A.net community goes into a frenzy everytime someone's photo is used illegally. Yet very few of the cases have caused anyone any loss of income.

YOU go out and buy $3,000.00 worth of photography equipment, YOU go find the great spots to take photos, YOU go arrange full access airside, YOU stand out in the freezing temps and take the photos, YOU get all the settings right, YOU go home and post process those images, YOU go through the work of getting the images uploaded and accepted on airliners.net - then have someone STEAL your work - let's have that person make a TON of money off of your photos - let's see you get JACK from it - and see how YOU feel.

Get it?

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 35):
Why would it be really difficult to show that these two photos are Andrew's? What is the probability that she has managed to either take or source from somewhere else two shots taken at an IDENTICAL angle to the two on a.net?

Exactly. JeffM and Stevie Wonder may find it difficult to see the similarities, but I don't. If this lady did hand-paint this image, her attention to detail is exquisite. Note how perfectly she replicated the shadows across the fans, for example.

Let's get one thing clear here - That canvas has TWO of my photos on it. Illegally. There shouldn't be any more questions about that.

I have contacted a couple of attorneys about this, I'm sure some kind of letter or notice will be sent to her soon. I'll keep everyone posted.

Thank you to those who are supporting me - and thereby supporting the entire airliners.net community - your help, support and comments are appreciated.

To those who don't - eh . . . I won't waste my time.

Drew

[Edited 2005-12-02 18:18:12]
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
Avro85
Posts: 236
Joined: Sat Jun 11, 2005 4:35 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:39 am

Incredible story  eyepopping 

Good Luck Drew. I hope for you that you'll win the battle.

Chris
 
User avatar
Bruce
Posts: 4934
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RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 2:57 am

I looked at the two, and I do think she stole them. They are identical. that's a very brazen act by someone who claims to be a "professional photographer". You should be compensated by a cut of whatever she sells them for.

If she operates a business in her town, can you contact the local Better Business Bureau and lodge a complaint? What that would do is serve to put this on record so that people who in the future may be searching for a professional photographer in that town would see that she has a reputation for this kind of thing and hopefully choose a different one - cut into her business.

bruce
Bruce Leibowitz - Jackson, MS (KJAN) - Canon 50D/100-400L IS lens
 
BO__einG
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Joined: Sun Apr 30, 2000 5:20 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:39 am

Alright Jeff, since you seem to think your so cocky.
Lets take a look at these two pictures of yours.

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeff Miller
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Jeff Miller


Both are nice pictures I guess.
Say this same slut steals those two pictures and puts them into that canvas thing of hers and sells it to corporate clients. Just like what is happening with Andrew. Its been going on for about some time, I guess the same amount of time as that of Andrew but you found out that she already made some money off it as it appears at a company website for CAT Cargo.

What would you do? Sit around with a ROFLAMO/tough luck attitude like what you are doing now?
I think not..
If you were to actually do the kind of things that you posted here after what had happened, then that would be just as foolish as what she had already done.

Seriously, this infringement is very very important news that everybody in this hobby must be aware of. In some countries, I bet you can get tortured, tossed into jail, or even worse get killed in the streets by the guy whos work was stolen and sold.
That is why copyright violations must not be taken lightly but at the most paramount of all matters. Even if the chances were not too good, you must still try with everything you have and not give up. I find it hard that after doing such a thing, people can get away with it.
Time, effort, Cost of equipment and fuel plus (airfare in some cases), dedication put forth in doing this must not be thrown away like that.
Follow @kimbo_snaps on Instagram or bokimon- on Flickr to see more pics of me and my travels.
 
fergulmcc
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 3:59 am

Drew mate, sorry I haven't seen your thread earlier, just been taking a break from A.net for a while. Nearly time to go on holiday, off to CPT via FRA in two weeks time, can't wait.

Anyway good luck with this and I hope you get sorted.

Take care

Fergul  sun 

PS: Is the viewing deck at FRA closed now?
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
viv
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RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:36 am

Hey Fergul, have a great time in South Aftica!
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
fergulmcc
Posts: 1877
Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:41 am

Quoting Viv (Reply 43):
Hey Fergul, have a great time in South Aftica!

Thanks Viv Big grin

I really am looking forward to it, have a helicopter ride around Cape Town planed so hope to get a few good shots in. They are based in CPT so maybe an arial shot of a good few 747's parked side by side will be nice.

Take care

Fergul

PS Good luck Drew,  bigthumbsup 
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
User avatar
clickhappy
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RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:44 am

Both are nice pictures I guess.

Say this same slut steals those two pictures and puts them into that canvas thing of hers and sells it to corporate clients.


Hahahaha
 
andrewuber
Posts: 2142
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 10:45 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:51 am

Quoting BO__einG (Reply 41):
Alright Jeff, since you seem to think your so cocky.
Lets take a look at these two pictures of yours.

Now now now, be nice - these were obviously added BEFORE "NOA_centered" became standard.
I'd rather shoot BAD_MOTIVE
 
Psych
Posts: 2944
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 5:55 am

Hi Drew.

Good luck with this - I can fully imagine the fury you must have felt.

I've not been in such a position myself (to my knowledge) but I fully agree with the view that it is the principle here that is worth fighting for - irrespective of any financial gain.

All the best.

Paul
 
Tommy Mogren
Posts: 895
Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2000 9:30 pm

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 7:20 am

Andrew,

I know how it feels to have your photos stolen. It sucks big time.

Make sure you nail her for this! Keep us posted and I hope you get
a lot of dollars out of this.

Good luck.

Tommy Mogren
Flightdeck Action - Cockpit Videos on Blu-ray and DVD - Flights In The Cockpit- You're Invited!
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Professional Photog Is Selling My Photos!

Sat Dec 03, 2005 8:37 am

Quoting Pepef (Reply 33):
A. So did you ask permission to post a photo of the painting?

I'll bet he never thought of that....She does own a copyright to that image, regardless of the current situation.

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 37):
Use Jeff's, he doesn't care,

Wonderful Gary, Thanks, you're a clASS act.  Wink

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 37):
maybe you should swagger over to your camera bag, how much did that paper weight set you back?

Paper weight"s", as in three paper weights. How much? A bit over $5,000 in bodies.

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 37):
Maybe you use your camera for other things that's your choice,

Yes, very much so, shooting airplanes represents maybe 10% or less. And maybe 0.5% of the income I make with them. If you are going to whine about the cost of your hobby, maybe you should find something else to keep you busy?

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 37):
To me how much you have lost in wages and earnings is irrelevant.

Unfortunately, it is ALL the judge would care about. READ, then try and comprehend the law.... Your feelings have no relevance in the matter.

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 38):
Bullshit. Go to Kinko's. Look at what they offer. You can have any image (JPEG, TIFF, GIF, BMP etc) printed onto a canvas. This lady did not sit down with paint brushes and do this herself.

Did you design the copyrighted logo on those two planes? Did you ask if you could use it? All you've done is digitize it. Big difference? Not really.

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 38):
Some people in this thread appearantly don't realize that when someone steals our work it pisses us off.

And who would that be? Do you think I have learned what I have mentioned here "by accident?" No. Hardly. And your not the only person to ever have their picture used with out permission, so you can get off that soap box. I've had more then one image "stolen" as you say, and after paying my $350 for 45 minutes of "consultation" time, I've found that for a simple image like your's and mine, and for the amount involved, I would not even get the case seen in court. (Hint: Look up the term SMALL CLAIMS).

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 38):
I have both RAW files, with full EXIF, and they are cataloged on my photo hard disk.

Did you register with the Copy Right Office? There is 3 month window you have probably lost out on.

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 38):
Stealing my photos is a CRIME, and she deserves appropriate punishment for this.

And be careful, if you have not reported ALL income from any sale of your's previous AND paid TAXES on that income, that too is a crime. Remember, determining lost income from this photo will be partially based on how much your REPORTED to the IRS on previous sales. Uncle SAM will take his $$ first.

Quoting BO__einG (Reply 41):
Say this same slut steals those two pictures and
puts them into that canvas thing of hers and sells it to corporate clients

Bachelor Bo... How would I know? Would I care? Sure. Would I waste money trying to get it from her? Read above. And, I've already "sold" that photo for a nice profit.

Quoting AndrewUber (Reply 38):
YOU go out and buy $3,000.00 worth of photography equipment, YOU go find the great spots to take photos, YOU go arrange full access airside, YOU stand out in the freezing temps and take the photos, YOU get all the settings right, YOU go home and post process those images, YOU go through the work of getting the images uploaded and accepted on airliners.net - then have someone STEAL your work - let's have that person make a TON of money off of your photos - let's see you get JACK from it - and see how YOU feel.

Get it?

You're the man Drew.....They need to make a Budweiser commercial just for that....

Again, good luck, sorry you can't see more then one side of this.

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