D L X
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Posts: 11701
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:05 am

Photo gurus,

still trying to get my first acceptance, so I tried something more conventional than the time lapse shots earlier. This is what I came up with:

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...jections/big/20051203_DML_0100.jpg

Rejected for quality and centering. I can understand the centering* and can simply re-crop it. However, what can I do about the quality? Any suggestions for improvements, or is this photo a lost cause?

Also, is this, a cropped and zoomed version

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/r...ections/big/20051203_DML_01002.jpg

This one was rejected for quality and double, but I'm assuming the double is the other rejected one since I don't actually have any shots in the db.

Any suggestions greatly appreciated. Thanks again, photo gurus!

Damon
 
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clickhappy
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:16 am

Hi Damon.

What Camera/Lens/Editing set-up are you using?

Royal
 
fergulmcc
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Joined: Thu Oct 14, 2004 8:36 pm

RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:22 am

Damon

What camera are you using and what are your settings.
First and foremost set your camera on max settings, i.e. large and fine. Try and fill the frame with the subject so that whan you down size the quality will be better. The two you have posted, the quality isn't there I'm afraid. Also when you sharpen the photo are you doing the sky as well? Have a look at these workflows, they might help you out.
http://www.rockymountainavphotos.com/Kyle/Workflows/Workflows.htm
Jid has a good one aswell, but I don't have the link to it,

Take care

Fergul  sun 

PS: I'm no Guru! Big grin
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
D L X
Topic Author
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:22 am

Nikon D70, Sigma 70-200 HSM, Photoshop CS2.
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:24 am

A very quality set-up, congrats.

Are you shooting in NEF or JPEG, and if JPEG, what quality setting?
 
sulman
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:27 am

Damon,

The subject looks like it was just too far away. The gear's up and there are only slats and a little flap visible, so I assume this is well into the climb. It's pushed the optics, air quality, and camera shake well beyond getting something salvageable. The tail is slightly blurred, and the rest of the aircraft lacks definition.

Try getting closer and working on an easier target, like an approach shot. This will give you a good base to work from. Aim to have the subject fill the frame when you shoot.

I only had two shots like this accepted (at full focal length, far off, on a very clear morning) from when I first started uploading, and I didn't really know what I was doing, and believe me there were some real howlers in that batch.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © James Trimbee
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © James Trimbee



You'll get the hang of it soon enough, just keep working.

Cheers


James
It takes a big man to admit they are wrong, and I am not a big man.
 
D L X
Topic Author
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:30 am

Quoting Fergulmcc (Reply 2):
What camera are you using and what are your settings.

The settings were ISO 200, 1/3200 shutter, f/5.0 aperture, and zoomed to 200mm.

This is in the NEF mode. If you've got 5MB to spare, I can show you the NEF too. I'll take a lok at those workflows, although I have to admit i'm still a CS2 novice.

About the sharpening, yes, I sharpened the whole shot. I used CS2's NEF loader to do luminance smoothing to knock out the noise in the sky. Is there anything specific about the quality that I can correct?

Thanks
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:34 am

Damon,

First thing you need to look at are your settings. There is no need to shoot with your lens so wide open (f/5.0) and with such a fast shutter speed (1/3200).

In bright sunlight you should be looking at something like f/11 at 1/500. You will see a HUGE difference in quality, and this will yield the quickest quality results.

What mode (command dial) are you shooting in?

Royal
 
D L X
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:46 am

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 4):
A very quality set-up, congrats

Which only makes this more frustrating!!  Smile

Quoting Sulman (Reply 5):
You'll get the hang of it soon enough, just keep working.

Thanks for the encouraging words!

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 7):
There is no need to shoot with your lens so wide open (f/5.0) and with such a fast shutter speed (1/3200).

Really? I was trying to combat camera shake since this was going to be a handheld day with a really long lens.

Quoting Clickhappy (Reply 7):
What mode (command dial) are you shooting in?

I think I was shooting aperture mode that day. Most of the shots in that batch were of planes on rotation where the lighting wasn't as strong, so I needed a wider aperture to keep the shutter speed high enough. (Heat distortion ruined all of them regardless.) I grabbed this shot on rotation, and didn't have time to change the settings as it went overhead.
 
fergulmcc
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:58 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 6):
I'll take a lok at those workflows, although I have to admit i'm still a CS2 novice.

Likewise but my workflow will still work well in CS2. I have both elements and CS2 and you should be ok. Use the magic wand set up and don't sharpen the sky. You'll find it better.

If you are getting bogged down with heat haze then don't shoot in mid sun, try early morning or late afternoon. Our Aussie friends have the same problem and they generaly don't shoot in mid sun, it's a photo killer!

Take care

Fergul  sun 
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
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clickhappy
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 6:03 am

just practive on being smooth when panning, but 1/500 will be fast enough you take care of any small shakes you might have...After 3 or 4 triple venti lattes I shake like a wet cold dog and my pics are okay.
 
D L X
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 7:31 am

Thanks again for all the help people.

I just want to make sure I'm on the right track. Fergul, I tried your workflow on the original NEF and got this result. What do you guys think?

http://www.geocities.com/thespamtest/DSC_01003.jpg

Hopefully I'll get an acceptance soon.  Smile
 
jay767
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:02 am

I agree with royal,that quick of a shutter speed is completely overboard,1/500 is more than enough to get a clear shot,even if you have shake problems you still won't need more than 1/750 or 1/1000 at the very most.
 
aviatortj
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:02 pm

Hey Damon,

This last revision looks a million times better than the previous two. I see a few things that can be improved upon before you try it in the queue again. Take a look at the right side of the stabilizer, it has somewhat of a halo around it. I'm guessing that came from a little over usage of the shadow/highlight feature. The default setting for that will make the preview look alright, but normally, the trick is done around 10%.

Also, the "Delta" titles on the forward fuselage appear to be oversharpened. I see a few jaggies around that neighborhood which is a giveaway. Your photo is getting much better, and these little things are easy to fix. Hope to see some uploads soon.

-TJ O'Keefe
 
aviatortj
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 5:06 pm

Also, take a look at these for examples:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Josh Akbar - NYCAviation
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Matt Coleman


Your angle is very unique to the DL 737-200, but these are close and should give you an idea for comparison. Hope this helps.

-TJ
 
pumaknight
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 8:14 pm

HAHAHa.....I like the latte shakes post......another photographer who goes through the warm hands vs camera shake equation on cold mornings!!

I now decaff....helps to steady those shots!! Although I do get wierd looks when I order " you want a decaff....why?? Whats the point???"
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fergulmcc
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Sun Dec 04, 2005 10:03 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 11):
Fergul, I tried your workflow on the original NEF and got this result. What do you guys think?

A lot better Damon but there is grain at the back of the engines but that mey be die to you being too far away, however a very good attempt at a different processing. The sky looks a lot better, as the saying goes, why sharpen the sky it doesn't need to be sharp.

Keep at it and you get there, well done.

Take care

Fergul  sun 
Zambian Airways, Where the Eagles fly free!!
 
D L X
Topic Author
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 3:12 am

Thanks again to all that helped. I've taken TJ's and Fergul's comments and made some more adjustments. I think I'm going to put this back in the queue and see what happens.  Smile

http://www.geocities.com/thespamtest/Pics.html
 
NIKV69
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RE: Can't Get Over The Quality Hump. Suggestions?

Mon Dec 05, 2005 6:22 am

Quoting D L X (Reply 8):
Which only makes this more frustrating!!

Good equipment is great, but you still have to use it properly.

If you are using Aperture priority to shoot and using RAW mode you should be on your way. This is one of my early pics accepted here. D70 with a Nikkor 80-200 2.8.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nicholas A Vollaro



I shot that in aperture priority, F8 or F9. Sun behind me. Holding the camera in my hand. Shoot in sunny conditions, pick the proper aperture and let the camera pick the shutter speed.

Also, I looked at the pic you posted. Interesting angle. I would try to keep it a little more simple to get your first few pics accepted. Try some gate shots, if you can get to a boneyard. It is so great to spot at places like IGM. In addition you can spend long periods of time in locations and shoot. This was my first pic accepted here.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nicholas A Vollaro



I was able to climb on a fence and just shoot it for 30 mins. Got a few good shots and picked the best one. I then walked a ways and did the same for this one.

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Nicholas A Vollaro



Once you get some pics in the DB then your confidence will rise and you can tackle some rotations. If you want to try those angles keep it simple and try to zoom in a little more. I was at JFK and losing light one afternoon and tried some of those shots. I let the plane go by me a bit and used the same 200MM lens and I think F10 and got this result.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nicholas A Vollaro



Keep shooting and don't get discouraged. It's frustrating but keep practicing and you will see results.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!

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