CFIjames
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Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:14 am

I do a lot of browsing on a.net, as I'm sure many people do. I often find pictures that I wish I could have taken and I am curious as to what camera, lens, and settings were used to capture that shot. (f-stop, iso, shutter speed)

Basically, it would be a neat feature to include during the photo upload page, and if thats not possible, I think we as photographers should make sure to include that information whenever possible. I know some people already do, but it would be great if more people did.
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waketurbulence
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:42 am

We had a fairly large thread on this a month or so ago. IIRC most people said it came down to a choice of the photographer. On JP the EXIF Data can be included which is pulled from the file. Some people like yourself have brought up this idea, but many people are neutral on the issue. One reason I like the idea is because it's nice to know focal length at a new shooting spot, but shots cannot be duplicated just by using the same settings. Ultimately it is down to the photographer who presses the button that creates the shot. For further discussion look at these.
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...tion_photography/read.main/202261/
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...tion_photography/read.main/196885/
http://www.airliners.net/discussions...tion_photography/read.main/203733/
-Matt
 
INNflight
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:53 am

Quoting CFIjames (Thread starter):
I often find pictures that I wish I could have taken and I am curious as to what camera, lens, and settings were used to capture that shot. (f-stop, iso, shutter speed)

Why not send an email to the photographer?

Florian
Jet Visuals
 
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JeffM
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:33 am

Quoting CFIjames (Thread starter):
it would be a neat feature to include during the photo upload page,

But it's not, and probably won't be.
 
eadster
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:11 am

I don't want to sound mean here, but most photographers have a rough idea of what the settings are when looking at a pic. From what I can remember from last time, the feature did not get a warm welcome.
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:33 am

i wonder why it wouldnt get a warm welcome, unless someone didn't want the EXIF telling on them
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jwenting
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:50 pm

Because a LOT of people don't have EXIF data, and don't have data cables to extract data from their cameras (if their cameras even have the option).

I'm not going to write down the exact aperture and shutter speed, time of day, compass direction I was pointing the camera, angle to the horizon, GPS position I was at, and everything else you'd need to exactly replicate the shot, for every (or any) photo I take.
Remembering which lens and camera I used is often enough of a struggle.
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Stealthz
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Thu Jan 05, 2006 3:56 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 6):
Because a LOT of people don't have EXIF data, and don't have data cables to extract data from their cameras

Hey I'm not a big fan of this option, but the exif data is embedded in the file, if you can download the photo you download the data!!

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
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Bruce
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:49 pm

Instead of exif data I'd be in favor of including somehow the Photographers' gear...such as camera back, lens, type of film etc.

bruce
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jwenting
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 3:50 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 7):
Hey I'm not a big fan of this option, but the exif data is embedded in the file, if you can download the photo you download the data!!

Never seen EXIF data embedded in my slides...
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Stealthz
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:12 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):
Never seen EXIF data embedded in my slides

Ah that is a whole different ball game, I recall when I was learning photography 30+ years ago and reading the magazines I was always impresssed (or amused) by those that diligently recorded all those details as well!! Never did any of it and wouldn't now!!!

A side note-I do however recall that it was planned by the film and camera manufacturers at one time to take the magnetic stripe data capability of APS film and apply it to 35mm film so that data would be recorded to assist with processeing etc... I guess they were overtaken by the digital juggernaut.

cheers

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
JRadier
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 9):

Never seen EXIF data embedded in my slides...

most of the pics on this side are digital...
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norfolkjohn
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:17 am

Guys,

This topic has been done to death a number of times in recent memory.

Point One - coping someone else's camera equipment and or cameras settings is NO way to learn or improve your photography and promotes the totally incorrect belief that there is a set of instructions which if followed rigorously will always produce a good result. Different things work for different people - go out and experiment, practice, read books but don't just blindly copy.

Point Two - It takes long enough to fill in all the required data for each upload and personally I'm just not interested in adding yet more detail that has nothing to do with the aircraft (it only relates to the method of image capture) and as explained in the other points above and below is of very questionable value.

Point Three - EXIF data will not tell you what lens was in use and that seems to be one of the things people are very interested in.

Point Four - Many people uploading to this site use zoom lenses. Unless they write down the exact focal length in use for each shot any lens data submitted is of minimal benefit even to those people that are interested.

Point Five - I reckon 99%+ of pictures on this site have been subject to post processing. Particularly where shots have been recorded as RAW files the post processing can significantly alter the look of the shots which makes the EXIF data of minimal value. Is someone going to ask that the entire editing work-flow is posted with each shot ? That probably has as big an effect on the final image as the equipment used in some cases.

Sorry but I see this as a total waste of time. If people really want to know how a particular shot was taken or what gear was being used - CONTACT THE PHOTOGRAPHER !

John
One thorn of experience is worth a whole wilderness of warning.
 
CFIjames
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 8:46 am

Ok, I feel a lot of tension here. I was merely saying that it would be a neat feature. It would not have to be mandatory, and I also mentioned that we should just try to include this info whenever we can, some photographers already list some info at the bottom of the remarks section. If you dont want to do it, dont. And Im sure most photographers would not want people bothering them with such emails all the time.

With my 300D and the included canon software, I have on record exactly what lens, iso, f-stop, shutter speed, focal length, flash usage, white balance, focus mode, and the all-important date/time.

Seeing as how a lot of this PHOTOGRAPHY forum is devoted to camera, lenses, and techniques, I do not think at all it would be a waste of time now and then. Certainly not more of a waste of time than writing a 300 word rant.
There are 3 simple rules for making a perfect landing every time. Its a shame that no one knows what they are.
 
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Kereru
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:20 am

Quoting Norfolkjohn (Reply 12):
EXIF data will not tell you what lens was in use and that seems to be one of the things people are very interested in.

Mine does.

Quoting Norfolkjohn (Reply 12):
Many people uploading to this site use zoom lenses. Unless they write down the exact focal length in use for each shot any lens data submitted is of minimal benefit even to those people that are interested.

My EXIF data has the exact focal length used even if I use a tele converter!

I think a facility to see EXIF data would be helpful to those that want to use it. If you don't want to use it that's fine but we EXIF nutters are missing out.

Cheers
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APFPilot1985
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:44 am

Quoting Kereru (Reply 14):
Quoting Norfolkjohn (Reply 12):EXIF data will not tell you what lens was in use and that seems to be one of the things people are very interested in.
Mine does.

Quoting Norfolkjohn (Reply 12):Many people uploading to this site use zoom lenses. Unless they write down the exact focal length in use for each shot any lens data submitted is of minimal benefit even to those people that are interested.
My EXIF data has the exact focal length used even if I use a tele converter!

yeah i dont know that this guy was talking about...... really why are people so passionately against it?
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norfolkjohn
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 9:57 am

Well Colin,

I have to admit you have caught me out as I hadn't realized that the EXIF data included the actual focal length for zoom lenses but you are quite correct - it does !

However I still stand by my contention that sharing EXIF data is of little or no benefit. It is of zero interest to me and there is no way I would bother to include it with any of my uploads.

I also stand by the contention that this issue has been flogged to death so I shall flog it no more !

I do hope all the EXIF nutters enjoy reading their EXIF data in future but I'd rather look at the photograph myself.

All the best.

John
One thorn of experience is worth a whole wilderness of warning.
 
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vzlet
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 10:39 am

Quoting INNflight (Reply 2):
Why not send an email to the photographer?



Quoting Norfolkjohn (Reply 12):
CONTACT THE PHOTOGRAPHER !

In the some-degree-of-irony department:
Colin Work, a very knowledgeable photographer no longer part of the A.net scene, was one of the first to routinely include exif info on his shots. His reason for doing so? He said he got tired of responding to queries about his photos!
"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
 
Stealthz
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 11:07 am

Hi all,

I tend to agree with John that merely reading the EXIF data is not going to make you a better photographer and in some cases may be misleading.
Adding the capability to the DB would be a fairly trivial programmming issue (don't jump down my neck Johan, I know that when programming, trivial is a relative thing!) and would require no more effort on the part of the contributor than ticking a single check box, this could even be set as a default much like the comments and watermark field.

Getting back to the misleading part... whilst EXIF data shows the focal length and exposure details, what use is this if post processing sees the image drastically cropped and levels adjusted?
There is more.. all the in camera settings such as WB, sharpness, contrast etc display as normal. Wait worse than that they display as whatever you have set those parameters to.
You may think that a good thing, if shooting RAW none of those have any effect on the image.. None at all.. so you are displaying information that is not only useless, maybe wrong and is almost certainly misleading.

There is another popular site that does have the option to display EXIF data, it is a painless feature to use yet I choose not to for the above reasons.

Having said that I don't mean you should disregard all the EXIF data, on your own photos it can become an important learning tool and allow you to how you took a particular shot, it also makes record keeping and file management much easier than it used to be!

Regards

Chris

[Edited 2006-01-06 03:10:56]
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
trvyyz
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:19 pm

In many cases but not all Exif is misleading.
Windows image viewer (In XP)gives the exif data in the advanced properties tab.
The data is embedded in the pics we upload.
example:

http://www.irfca.org/gallery/Locos/D...959t.jpg.html?g2_imageViewsIndex=1
There is a mistake in the exif data of the above pic.Let me see who finds it.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:55 pm

Not a mistake so much, the camera is reporting the facts as it knows them, it would appear that the camera clock is set to a timezone quite different to the one where the photo was taken.

"02/23/2005 10:25:42 PM" Whilst there are extreme Northern and Southern Latitudes that may have some light at that hour on that date I would be pretty confident that most of India is in the depths of night.

Remember "GIGO"... the camera is not magic,you have to set some of the parameters

C
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
trvyyz
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 20):
02/23/2005 10:25:42 PM

Good Analysis there!

That actually was the Canadian Winter timing,Eastern Time (the Camera is a North American model, I believe it would be 300D in India) and I didn't bother to change it to Indian Standard Time for a 2 week trip.

The actual date is the next day02/24/2005 8.55am Big grin
 
jwenting
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:19 pm

Quoting JRadier (Reply 11):
most of the pics on this side are digital...

Not so. Maybe from the last few years but that's it. And there's still (at least on paper) a policy to not require a Canon DSLR (other digicams have EXIF data as well but it is not consistent between brands so a choice would likely have to be made to make the software possible) upload anything here.

Personally I won't "go digital" for at least another 18 months, and probably far longer, and I won't abandon film until there's no more film and chemicals to be had.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 18):
I tend to agree with John that merely reading the EXIF data is not going to make you a better photographer and in some cases may be misleading.

"may be misleading"? That's putting it mildly.
The purely technical data about the camera contained in EXIF data tell you nothing about the conditions under which the image was recorded.
There's no information about lighting conditions, atmospheric conditions (haze, etc.), position of light sources in relation to the camera, etc. etc.
All those are FAR more important that what shutter time down to the microsecond the camera was using or what exact zoom settings were used on the zoomlens down to the micrometer.
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Kukkudrill
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Fri Jan 06, 2006 6:56 pm

I have started to routinely include camera and lens info in the remarks when uploading photos, because I found such info useful when doing research. You can't judge the quality of a camera or lens by the photos uploaded to a.net because of the amount of editing they might have had. But once you have the info you can get in touch with the photographer to ask whether, for example, a particular lens focuses fast enough for airshows.

EXIF info would also be useful, for instance the shutter speed used for panned shots, or the aperture used for close-ups of museum exhibits (to avoid depth of field problems, which I have experienced). I don't think every single item in the EXIF data would need to be reproduced. Yes it would be daft to think you can take better photos just by copying someone else's settings, but you can still learn from them.

I understand John's point that the info could be misleading in some situations. But I do not think that is sufficient reason to withhold it. It's up to individuals to use the information correctly. We don't have to hold people's hands or do their thinking for them.

Websites like www.flickr.com provide EXIF data as a matter of routine unless the photographer opts to withhold it. And in jetphotos.net you input your camera gear once and then select the specific items used for each photo from a drop-down menu - saves having to write it into the remarks every time. Again this feature is optional.

Incidentally I hope I'm not giving offence by mentioning these other sites by name, but I'm not interested in intra-website politics and I don't see why I should hide behind euphemisms.

Charles
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
jwenting
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Sat Jan 07, 2006 5:15 am

It's also up to the individual to choose to include it or not.
There are way too many things required here as it is, taking the fun out of uploading.
Personally I've no interest AT ALL in production numbers for example, yet to upload something here I have to spend hours researching them.
Thanks but no thanks.
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aviopic
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:13 am

Exif data would be very valuable for a number of reasons.
If A.net wants us to rate the photos, which in itself is a nice thingy, EXIF data would be very helpful.
Infect I can only rate a photo if it comes with the data included.
1/100s at 50mm is something different then 1/100s at 800mm and will put the photo in another category.
Of course EXIF would not tell the whole story but it sure helps.

With more and better editing tools becoming available to more people who are becoming better with it every day it will also be helpful to judge between flaw or real.
For this reason alone EXIF data should be mandatory with every upload whether it is displayed later on or not.

Willem
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Stealthz
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Sat Jan 07, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 25):
If A.net wants us to rate the photos, which in itself is a nice thingy, EXIF data would be very helpful.
Infect I can only rate a photo if it comes with the data included.
1/100s at 50mm is something different then 1/100s at 800mm and will put the photo in another category.

I don't understand this point, either a photo works or it does not, it is mediocre or it is great.. what has the shutter speed, aperture, focal length or anything else have to do with that??
Do you need to know what size brush or what oils Da Vinci used to judge the Mona Lisa or have detailed knowledge of the chisel and mallet that Michelangelo used on his Pietas or David??

Cheers

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
aviopic
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Sat Jan 07, 2006 8:36 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 26):
I don't understand this point, either a photo works or it does not, it is mediocre or it is great.. what has the shutter speed, aperture, focal length or anything else have to do with that??

Nothing if you are only looking at a post stamp.
From a technical viewpoint however it's the difference between an easy and a difficult shot.
For me being a technical guy there is more in a photo then just the motive.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 26):
Do you need to know what size brush or what oils Da Vinci used to judge the Mona Lisa or have detailed knowledge of the chisel and mallet that Michelangelo used on his Pietas or David??

Yes, a detailed aquarel is more difficult then a detailed oil painting, not that I can do either one of them.
Just like it is easier to make a detailed 1024x768(or something) crop from a 12mp sensor then it is from a 3mp sensor.
and so on........

Just a motive even if it very nice and works great says little about the technical difficulties and if I have to rate a photo I therefore need the complete picture.
But maybe that's just me, I don't know.


Willem
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
APFPilot1985
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:17 am

The main reason why I would love to have EXIF is because it tells what model of camera was used. Something I find very helpful when I am evaluating new gear....
_reid
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Stealthz
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:27 am

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 27):
From a technical viewpoint however it's the difference between an easy and a difficult shot.
For me being a technical guy there is more in a photo then just the motive



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 26):
Just a motive even if it very nice and works great says little about the technical difficulties and if I have to rate a photo I therefore need the complete picture.
But maybe that's just me, I don't know.

Willem,
You defeat your own argument with this photo...

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Willem Honders



Your little "mystery" would be no more if EXIF data were supplied

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
Kukkudrill
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:36 pm

Is this an attempt at the famous Aussie humour, or just flamebait? The photo remarks must have been tongue in cheek because it's obvious that a low shutter speed was used. Although having said that, I'd like to know just how low to achieve that sort of effect. I fail to see how this photo defeats the argument in favour of disclosing EXIF data -- quite the opposite in fact ...
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
Stealthz
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Mon Jan 16, 2006 6:56 pm

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 30):
or just flamebait?

Not at all.. Willem made the point that EXIF data is essential to judge a photo.. why?? I don't see his point.
Indeed with this image and his comments he makes quite a case for ones mind to interpret a picture not merely read data about a photograph.

If that is considered flamebait so be it!!

Chris

PS Willem those A2A shots of the Viggen are just awesome.. well done

[Edited 2006-01-16 10:58:29]
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
aviopic
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Mon Jan 16, 2006 8:19 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 29):
You defeat your own argument with this photo...

You got me there Chris Big grin

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 31):
Not at all.. Willem made the point that EXIF data is essential to judge a photo.. why?? I don't see his point.

I've done my best to explain why I think EXIF data is essential to judge a photo and I can't think of something to add.
Nobody has to agree though, it's just my opinion.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 31):
If that is considered flamebait so be it!!

I did not take it that way.

Quoting Kukkudrill (Reply 30):
I'd like to know just how low to achieve that sort of effect.

If you want I come back later with the details but I'm now at work, I did answer quite a few emails about the subject anyway.

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 31):
Willem those A2A shots of the Viggen are just awesome.. well done

Thanks, it was an awesome experience.

Take care,
Willem
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Kukkudrill
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Mon Jan 16, 2006 10:06 pm

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 32):
If you want I come back later with the details

Whenever you can. I'd be obliged.

Charles
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
jwenting
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Tue Jan 17, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 26):
I don't understand this point, either a photo works or it does not, it is mediocre or it is great.. what has the shutter speed, aperture, focal length or anything else have to do with that??

Nothing whatsoever. That data is only (and that to a very limited extent) interesting for others wanting to replicate the exact same shot (but they'd need a lot more information).

Quoting Aviopic (Reply 27):
From a technical viewpoint however it's the difference between an easy and a difficult shot.

Which means exactly ZIP when it comes to telling whether it's a good or a bad shot.

It only provides more reasons to reject images:
"badshutterspeed" (you didn't use a shutterspeed within the approved range for the focal length you selected).
"badfocallength" (you're not supposed to use a lens with a focal length other than 50mm for rampshots)
etc. etc.

And yes, those examples were very much meant as sarcasm but I can see such situations arising.

read http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/7.htm
"Equipment Measurbator: Bottom Level 1 (equivalent to "Hell" in Christian mythology)

These men (and they are all men) have no interest in art or photography because they have no souls. Lacking souls they cannot express imagination or feeling, which is why their images, if they ever bother to make any, suck.

These folks have analysis paralysis and never accomplish anything.

Does poring over a microscope analyzing test images have anything to do with photographing a Joshua tree at dawn? Of course not. Even worse, time wasted concentrating on tests is time not spent learning useful aspects of photography and certainly time that could have been better spent actually photographing. Test just enough to know what your gear can do, and then get on with real photography.

They are interested solely in equipment for its own sake. They will talk your ear off for hours if you let them, but as soon as you ask to see their portfolio their bravado scurries away, or they think you want to see their cameras or stocks. You can read why cameras simply don't matter here."
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Kukkudrill
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Tue Jan 17, 2006 2:28 am

What about us poor ordinary mortals who'd simply like answers to questions like what shutter speed, more or less, does one need to get full-circle prop blur like that in Willem's photo above? Yes I know there are other variables involved - were the engines running with throttles open or just idling over? - but it's all about getting a general idea, NOT trying to take a carbon-copy of the same shot. Getting information from the EXIF data is no different from getting it from talking to other photographers, which I'm sure nobody would object to. I don't know why this issue has to be raised to the level of some kind of fundamental ideological debate.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
jwenting
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Tue Jan 17, 2006 4:19 am

Nothing wrong with giving the OPTION, but it should not be mandatory (which the whole thing is about).

And for me (and others) it is a philosophical issue. A picture should stand on its own merits and not have those merits determined (as some people posting in this threat and elsewhere want to) purely by the technical data generated by the camera.
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Kukkudrill
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RE: Including Camera Setting On Uploads

Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:50 am

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 36):
Nothing wrong with giving the OPTION, but it should not be mandatory

Agreed. I think we understand each other so I'll leave it there.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life

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