futterman
Posts: 1261
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Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:34 am

I'd like to think these would make a nice (and welcome) addition to the database, but I'm interested as to what you all think before I bring my acceptance ratio down a few more notches...

http://www.nycaviation.com/hosting/8...sh8_N998HA_INFLIGHTgeardown_BF.jpg
http://www.nycaviation.com/hosting/8...sh8_N998HA_INFLIGHTgeardown_BF.jpg

And, for the record, this one is already sitting in the queue. Pull it or praise it?

http://www.airliners.net/addphotos/b...ash8_N998HA_INFLIGHTsunrise_BF.jpg

Thanks,

Brian
What the FUTT?
 
JAT74L
Posts: 606
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:16 am

Stunning.

The second of the two gear shots is best to my eye and the prop shot is out of this world.

It would be a loss if not accepted.

John
I like trains just as much as planes but trains don't like the Atlantic!
 
mikephotos
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 10:41 am

Nice attempts but (my opinion) they fall short on quality. Too much noise and very low contrast...sorta has a hazy look to it like too much brightness has been applied. The tires should be black or very close to it. I like the 3rd shot but I forsee a badmotive. I would say try reworking or keeping them for the collection.

Mike
 
futterman
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:23 am

Quoting JAT74L (Reply 1):
Stunning.

Thanks, John, I'm glad you like them!

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 2):
Nice attempts but (my opinion) they fall short on quality. Too much noise and very low contrast...sorta has a hazy look to it like too much brightness has been applied. The tires should be black or very close to it. I like the 3rd shot but I forsee a badmotive. I would say try reworking or keeping them for the collection.

Hey Mike, nice to hear from you. I actually agree with your comments on the first two shots...definitely not top-quality and I suppose a bit soft (even blurry), but I did not apply much, if any brightness to the image. The exposures were on the order of 1-2 seconds, so that's probably where the hazyness came from.

I'm curious, though, as to what you see badmotive about the third shot. Any suggestions?

Brian
What the FUTT?
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:42 am

Maybe a hint of sharpening on the prop, other than that, OYE!!!!

The gear shots could stand some contrast though.
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
mikephotos
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 11:49 am

Quoting Futterman (Reply 3):
I'm curious, though, as to what you see badmotive about the third shot. Any suggestions?

To me, the chopping of the top of the props seems to kill the shot. I know it is was probably impossible get more of it in the shot so you did you best.

Mike
 
javibi
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 6:34 pm

Lovely shots!!!!

In the prop one try this and see if you like it better:
Layer>New Adjustment Layer>Selective color>Blacks>Black 5-10%

Cheers

j
 
beechcraft
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:06 pm

Brian,

I fear that all these photos will be rejected for quality and motiv at least. Mike has already said the important issues for the first two.

I´d love the Prop shot, if it was centered and sharper, but i know that this will be extremely difficult, or even impossible to achive with the Dash 8.

regards,

Denis
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
 
ChrisH
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:24 pm

Quoting Beechcraft (Reply 7):
I´d love the Prop shot, if it was centered

How do you mean centered? I think the composition is bang on.


very nice shots, too bad about the noise... =(
what seems to be the officer, problem?
 
javibi
Posts: 1295
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:29 pm

Quoting Beechcraft (Reply 7):
it was centered and sharper

Allow me to disagree, IMHO composition is nice and well balanced, unlike the shots we all submit to comply with the stupid "center" rule. As for sharpness it is virtually impossible to get THAT kind of shot sharper than that.

It deserves to be in the DB if Brian edits it just a bit better, IMO that is, which counts as nothing, of course.

Cheers

j
 
beechcraft
Posts: 731
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:10 am

RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:18 pm

Quoting Javibi (Reply 9):
Allow me to disagree



Quoting ChrisH (Reply 8):
I think the composition is bang on.

No, problem with your disagreement, i´d just say it would look nicer to my eyes, if the prop was a little bit lower in the frame. Almost all Attention is currently drawn to that dark upper left corner, which is dominating the shot. However that´s just my opinion.

Quoting Javibi (Reply 9):
It deserves to be in the DB if Brian edits it just a bit better



Quoting Javibi (Reply 9):
it is virtually impossible to get THAT kind of shot sharper than that.

I know, i know, trust me.... Smile However, if Brian is able to solve quality issues with some postprocessing it might have a chance.

At last, let me say i really like these kinds of shots, i appreciate that people try to push the envelope instead of uploading relatively "safe" shots.

Pushing that envelope however might harm your acceptance ratio, if you care about that...

Denis
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
 
futterman
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:00 am

SHIT...I was just writing a big huge reply, but hit the back button and lost it. Crap damn aw man! Stay tuned for my responses.

Thanks so far!

Brian
What the FUTT?
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 2:14 am

Quoting Futterman (Reply 11):
SHIT...I was just writing a big huge reply, but hit the back button and lost it. Crap damn aw man! Stay tuned for my responses.

After a couple of those incidents I've started to (on long replies) select-all and copy before hitting the "Post" button...just to be safe.....

Mike
 
futterman
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:37 am

Thanks again for all the replies so far. To have photographers of such a high caliber enjoy my photography really means a lot...all the exclamation marks put a smile on my face, too.  Wink

Now down to business.

Quoting DLKAPA (Reply 4):
The gear shots could stand some contrast though.

While more contrast may liven up the colors a bit, it'll make the gear pitch black (silhouetted), defeating the purpose of the shot. They're just as bright and in-need-of-contrast in the original.

I will say, though, that watching the gear just about fall out of its compartment was freakin' awesome! Touchdown was even better, seeing the tires burn and struts compress...after we finished bouncing, there were even a few sparks in the brakes!

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 5):
To me, the chopping of the top of the props seems to kill the shot. I know it is was probably impossible get more of it in the shot so you did you best.

I did manage to take a few vertical shots showing consideraby more of the prop (but not all of it). However, I feel they lack the 'oomph' the first image has, with the sun rising and city lights whizzing by. Judge for yourself:

http://www.nycaviation.com/hosting/8...essDash8_N998HA_INFLIGHTsunrise_BF

17mm, f4.0 at ISO800 and -1/3EV for a 4 second handheld exposure. You can clearly see how difficult it is to get it all in the frame...nearly impossible, in fact, to get it without some sort of reflection from the window (I don't even think the window is tall enough to SEE the whole prop!). Kinda like trying to get the whole engine in the frame when you take an over-the-wing shot out of an A320 or 737. Just won't work.

Quoting Javibi (Reply 6):
Lovely shots!!!!

In the prop one try this and see if you like it better:
Layer>New Adjustment Layer>Selective color>Blacks>Black 5-10%

Thanks, Javier! (Slow shutterspeeds rock!) I just gave this a try in PS and noticed nothing more than an ever-so-slight darkening of the image. However, I do like how it makes the colors more vibrant (a la Eric's suggestion to add more contrast). Planning to come back up to the Big Apple any time soon?

Quoting Beechcraft (Reply 7):
I fear that all these photos will be rejected for quality and motiv at least. Mike has already said the important issues for the first two.

I´d love the Prop shot, if it was centered and sharper, but i know that this will be extremely difficult, or even impossible to achive with the Dash 8.

I'll disagree with you, just as the others have.

Quality: While I admit that the shots are neither grainless nor extraordinarily crisp, I've always been under the impression that screeners considered the artistic merit and photographic difficulty involved in taking out-of-the-box photos like this, effectively lowering the standards in the photographer's favor. Unfortunately, I've been disappointed as of late (see this badblurry rejection...any suggestions?). If you speak of my shots being rejected due to "quality" because the ISO grain has been accentuated by sharpening, then maybe I can fix that with another edit...but I can't fix the grain itself.

Motiv: I'll preface this with the usual I'm-not-bashing-the-photographers-and-I-love-the-screeners disclaimer. So...I'm not bashing the photographers and I love the screeners.

Now, if your only bone to pick with motiv is the "chopping of the top of the props" (which has been shown to be unavoidable), I'd like to show you these shots:

View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Dustin J. Wywrot
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andras Sobester



View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Andras Sobester
View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Liander



Quoting Javibi (Reply 9):
Allow me to disagree, IMHO composition is nice and well balanced, unlike the shots we all submit to comply with the stupid "center" rule. As for sharpness it is virtually impossible to get THAT kind of shot sharper than that.

Thanks again, J. I don't think the centering here is anything too exceptional. Yes, I could have moved further back in the plane to fill more of the frame with the engine and prop, but that would have made the entire top third just black... As for sharpness, perhaps I can throw in a small hit of USM in certain places, but I really don't feel that it's necessary.

Quoting Javibi (Reply 9):
It deserves to be in the DB if Brian edits it just a bit better, IMO that is, which counts as nothing, of course.

I'm opened to any editing critique and suggestion. Your opinion, Javier, is nothing only to the photographer who doesn't push the envelope. Check your email.

Quoting Beechcraft (Reply 10):
Almost all Attention is currently drawn to that dark upper left corner, which is dominating the shot. However that´s just my opinion.

Like I just stated in my reply to Javier's post, the entire top of the frame would be pitch-black if I had centered it the way you (appear to) describe.

Quoting Beechcraft (Reply 10):
However, if Brian is able to solve quality issues with some postprocessing it might have a chance.

Again, I'd like to know what I could possibly do in terms of postprocessing to avoid these quality issues you are all speaking of. Is the grain the only hot topic? Or is there something else?

Quoting Beechcraft (Reply 10):
At last, let me say i really like these kinds of shots, i appreciate that people try to push the envelope instead of uploading relatively "safe" shots.

Pushing that envelope however might harm your acceptance ratio, if you care about that...

Pushing the envelope my harm my acceptance ratio, but not pushing the envelope will harm me as a photographer. I'll keep uploading.

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 12):
After a couple of those incidents I've started to (on long replies) select-all and copy before hitting the "Post" button...just to be safe.....

Not quite as idiot-proof as you'd think. I always do this (am doing it right now...Ctrl+A, Crtl+C, Crtl+V in Notepad...alright, back to typing), but it just so happened that I was C&P'ing something within the reply and accidentally hit the back button on the mouse, leaving only a few words - and not the whole reply - in my clipboard (who the hell puts a back button on the mouse?!). Anyway, as you can see, I just retyped it and it's all here...new and improved.

Thanks again, guys,

Brian
What the FUTT?
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting Futterman (Reply 13):
I did manage to take a few vertical shots showing consideraby more of the prop (but not all of it). However, I feel they lack the 'oomph' the first image has, with the sun rising and city lights whizzing by. Judge for yourself:

http://www.nycaviation.com/hosting/8...se_BF

Agreed, the first example/composition is the better of the two. It's just a tough shot and might (my non-screener point of view) have 'motiv' issues.

Quoting Futterman (Reply 13):
Not quite as idiot-proof as you'd think.

It's idiot-proof, just not Futter-proof  Smile

Mike
 
futterman
Posts: 1261
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 14):
It's idiot-proof, just not Futter-proof  Smile

My last name begins with "F-U" for a reason, Mike.  Wink
What the FUTT?
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:39 am

Quoting Futterman (Reply 15):
My last name begins with "F-U" for a reason, Mike.

F'in Ugly? Failing PhUtographer? Frustated Uploader? Hahahaha  Smile Just busting B@alls. Good luck with the image in the upload Q, let us know how it goes.

Mike
 
futterman
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:13 am

Touche! Hahaha...

Looking forward to seeing how the shot fairs in the queue...or am I?

Brian
What the FUTT?
 
beechcraft
Posts: 731
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:10 am

RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 8:07 am

Hi again,

Quoting Futterman (Reply 13):
Pushing the envelope my harm my acceptance ratio, but not pushing the envelope will harm me as a photographer. I'll keep uploading.

Brian, that´s excactly what i meant to say: keep uploading, keep pushing the envelope

Quoting Futterman (Reply 13):
17mm, f4.0 at ISO800 and -1/3EV for a 4 second handheld exposure.

I´m still trying to figure out how many G&T i would need to get a hand steady enough for a 4 second exposure.  drunk 
That´s a nice shot!

Quoting Futterman (Reply 13):
I've always been under the impression that screeners considered the artistic merit and photographic difficulty involved in taking out-of-the-box photos like this, effectively lowering the standards in the photographer's favor.

That´s true, a new perspective, rare sights, difficult surroundings are taken into account for the favor of the photographer, but there are limits.

A difficult situation doesn´t guarantee an Acceptance.

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 12):
Now, if your only bone to pick with motiv is the "chopping of the top of the props"

That´s not my bone to to pick, i just don´t really like it. And i´m not saying that it won´t get accepted, or that there are no other similar photos out there.
I was just giving you my own personal opinion.
Anyway, i´m more a jet guy, after all  Smile

To sum it up, please don´t be offended by what i said, it wasn´t meant to sound that way. I know your shots are hard to achive and i appreciate you are taking these kind of shots. If you choose to upload one of those, go ahead, i´ll be happy with you if it get´s accepted.

best regards,

Denis
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
 
mikephotos
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 1:24 pm

Denis, just be careful with the quote tool. I (mikephotos) didn't say what you listed as me saying above.

Mike
 
beechcraft
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:16 pm

Mike,
that´s strange. That quote was taken directly from Brians post. No idea why it shows your name and reply....


Denis
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
 
User avatar
jumbojim747
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 6:46 pm

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 19):
Mike,
that´s strange. That quote was taken directly from Brians post. No idea why it shows your name and reply....

I think it works like this he highlights what one person says and presses the quote from another reply hence the wrong name in the quote.
Its a simple mistake and could happen to anyone.
Sorry for this Mike I was just trying to show my point.
Mike did not say the above quote in my post.
Cheers
On a wing and a prayer
 
beechcraft
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:16 pm

Ah, i see, nice to know...

Denis
That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!
 
mikephotos
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:07 am

no problem at all, just making sure you're aware for future use. no worries guys!

mike
 
JohnJ
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Fri Mar 10, 2006 2:12 am

Neat shots, and riding mid-cabin in a Dash-8 is indeed a cool experience with the main landing gear extension/retraction sequence. The last few I've taken on US Airways Express, the windows have been so filthy you could barely see outside, much less get a decent picture.
 
futterman
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RE: Waddaya Think Of These Two?

Thu Mar 16, 2006 5:02 am

Well, the prop shot got badquality, badblurry, and badsoft. Triple threat!  Smile

Thanks again for all the comments.

Brian
What the FUTT?

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