cosec59
Posts: 2618
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:59 am

Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Tue Apr 18, 2006 5:56 pm

Excuse my ignorance, but I was reading a reply by Psych in another thread when he mentioned " select just the plane in editing".
I use CS2 and would appreciate any help of how to sharpen just the aircraft and not the whole photo. I have tried the magic wand but it seems a tad confusing.
On another issue, I have just started to use RAW and find some pics are grainy when I have edited them. I guess thats a mistake I'm making and would appreciate help to overcome that one too please.
Rules are for the obedience of fools but for the guidance of wise men
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Tue Apr 18, 2006 6:09 pm

The Magic Wand works well if the aircraft is against a uniform background (such as a blue sky). Click on the sky and then right-click and Select Inverse.

For aircraft against a non-uniform background (clouds, or aircraft on the ground) try the Magnetic Lasso. Draw around the aircraft, click "Select", then "Modify", then "Expand" by 1 pixel.

Others may disagree, but I feel that the incremental improvement of RAW over JPG is not worth the effort.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
Psych
Posts: 2944
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Tue Apr 18, 2006 7:23 pm

Hi Phil.

I use USM settings of 500%, 0.2 and 0, and generally I never find that this introduces grain into things like the sky.

As regards that comment about selection, I was suggesting using the Magic Wand tool, as Viv mentions above. But that can be tricky, depending on the type of pixels that make up the plane and the background.

If you are keen to only sharpen the plane itself then I would now suggest the Layer mask strategy, outlined by Jeff here, in Reply 3. I have not used this technique myself, but I think Jeff knows what he is talking about with this. I think that might suit your needs well and avoids the potential irritation of using the Magic Wand and selecting bits you don't want, or not selecting enough.

All the best.

Paul
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10889
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Quoting Viv (Reply 1):
The Magic Wand works well if the aircraft is against a uniform background (such as a blue sky). Click on the sky and then right-click and Select Inverse.

 checkmark 

Quoting Psych (Reply 2):
I use USM settings of 500%, 0.2 and 0, and generally I never find that this introduces grain into things like the sky.

I like Fergul's settings a little better. 50% 0.3 and 0, you geta more gradual sharpening and you can avoid the jaggies.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting Psych (Reply 2):
outlined by Jeff here, in Reply 3.

Yup! Ultimate control, using the wand is not very accurate and leaves artifacts on too many edges, it's not well suited for this type of editing and isn't reversable. I seldom use USM sharpening any more.

Quoting Psych (Reply 2):
I use USM settings of 500%, 0.2 and 0, and generally I never find that this introduces grain into things like the sky.

Paul, why do you even apply it to the sky???
 
Psych
Posts: 2944
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:17 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:51 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 4):
Paul, why do you even apply it to the sky

No good reason Jeff, other than these settings are not detrimental and this is the way I have learned to do things.

Now that is not an argument that your Layer mask method is not superior  wink .

Just one thing - you say you do not use USM any more. I think I understand the principle of the mask as you explained it in the thread linked above. But what are you 'painting' on, if it is not USM? Sorry for sounding a bit unsure here, but masks is not a method I have been familiar using so far.

Cheers.

Paul
 
MONGORAT
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:28 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Tue Apr 18, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 4):
Paul, why do you even apply it to the sky???

Greetings all...Jeff I sharpen like Paul does as well; plane, sky,everything. I have tried just sharpening the aircraft but can't say I see any noticeable difference in the two methods; perhaps it's my eyes.

And Jeff, thanks for your reply to my e-mail...still can't seem to use your "Mask Technique" for sharpening with my Photoshop 3.0 version.

Matt L
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:00 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 4):
Ultimate control

I will try this tonight. It sounds great, but I suspect there may be some trial and error and a learning curve involved.

Anyway, thanks to Jeff for the information. Sharpening is the only aspect of processing that I find troublesome.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:07 pm

Do a google search for High Pass Sharpening. I've been using this method more and more these days as it does not (at least in my experience) introduce any additional noise and you don't have to worry about masking-out the sky. It's a little more work than USM but worth it IMO.

Mike
 
willo
Posts: 1331
Joined: Fri Dec 12, 2003 10:21 pm

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Tue Apr 18, 2006 11:17 pm

Second "ignorant" question of the thread  Smile

Having tried to get to the layer masks in the way JeffM describes, and, having read and re-read the help menus in PS, would I be right in thinking that these tools are not available in Elements 2?

If they are there, would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction?
 
MONGORAT
Posts: 160
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2005 11:28 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 12:27 am

Quoting Willo (Reply 9):
Second "ignorant" question of the thread

No such thing!

Quoting Willo (Reply 9):
Having tried to get to the layer masks in the way JeffM describes, and, having read and re-read the help menus in PS, would I be right in thinking that these tools are not available in Elements 2?

Andrew...my stumbling point as well. I use Photoshop 3.0 and I can't seem to get Jeff's technique to work either; I have been playing around with this for a couple weeks now but can't seem to figure it out.  banghead 

Quoting Willo (Reply 9):
If they are there, would someone be kind enough to point me in the right direction?

I second that.. thumbsup 

Matt L
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:13 am

Quoting Psych (Reply 5):
Just one thing - you say you do not use USM any more. I think I understand the principle of the mask as you explained it in the thread linked above. But what are you 'painting' on, if it is not USM?

I just click the standard SHARPEN most of the time.

Quoting Psych (Reply 5):
masks is not a method I have been familiar using so far.

Once you try it, you will find you use that method for everything....Literally.

Quoting Willo (Reply 9):
these tools are not available in Elements 2?

I'm not sure about Elements...

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 8):
search for High Pass Sharpening. I've been using this method more and more these days as it does not (at least in my experience) introduce any additional noise and you don't have to worry about masking-out the sky.

I've used it as well, but always on a mask layer, never on it's own. Something always gets sharpened that I don't want, then your stuck having to erase it. With a mask, I just brush the HPS on ONLY where I want, and ONLY at the intensity I want.


DO NOT confuse a layer mask with "masking" something via lasso, or magnetic lasso. This is completely different.
 
Cosmic
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:35 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 1:28 am

I've just tried all three methods, Just clicking sharpen, Unsharp Mask and High Pass Sharpening and the results from Unsharp Mask look the best to me for this particular Photo, it produced the least grain and noise.

This is the Photo I edited (this one is the USM one).



Though I think that when editing other Photos, the High Pass Sharpening method might work well.

I am yet to try Jeff's method, I am going to though.

EDIT:

I've had a go Jeff, but I am having trouble with this bit:

Quoting JeffM:
Check to make sure the two colors (foreground and background squares) are white and black. Make White the active color, then select a paint brush with a hardness of about 20-30,

Where can I find the squares? If you mean the squares in the Layer box, one of the sqaures is black, the other one just shows the Photo. Also, when I select the paint brush where can I find the hardness setting? I can only see opacity.

What am I doing wrong?

Thanks for the help.

[Edited 2006-04-18 18:52:28]
 
D L X
Posts: 11655
Joined: Thu May 27, 1999 3:30 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 2:50 am

Doesn't High Pass Sharpening give you halos out the wazoo?

I've started using an action that does CS2's smart sharpen, but only on and near edges. It's hard to explain all that I do, but if you want to check out the action, you can download it here. All of my recent acceptances have been with this action. Basically, you select roughly the plane, and the action does the rest.

After the action runs, it leaves the background image and a layer with a mask that you can paint on or paint off for the background using JeffM's technique.
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:05 am

Quoting Cosmic (Reply 12):
I've had a go Jeff, but I am having trouble with this bit:

Quoting JeffM:
Check to make sure the two colors (foreground and background squares) are white and black. Make White the active color, then select a paint brush with a hardness of about 20-30,

Where can I find the squares? If you mean the squares in the Layer box, one of the sqaures is black, the other one just shows the Photo. Also, when I select the paint brush where can I find the hardness setting? I can only see opacity.

What am I doing wrong?

O.k. here are the squares... the red x is in the white, or the "active" color.



If you click on the little black and white squares below them, you will turn them to the default black and white, IF you have other colors there. Clicking on either square will make it active.
The red arrow on top points to the paint brush.



Here is where you find the brush diameter, ...Click on the little down arrown to the right of the word BRUSH.



and hardness...


Here is the Opacity setting...



And finally here is how you hide the layer mask.



Remember, AFTER you hide the layer mask, then you can select your white brush and "paint on" your sharpening, levels, color, high pass, etc. It works for everything!

So in summary...

For what ever correction you want control over it's application..

1. Duplicate the current layer
2. Apply your correction, (levels, shadow removal, satuation, sharpening, USM, etc...) only do ONE at a time.
3. Hide the layer mask.
4. Select the WHITE BOX
5. Select your brush, set diameter, hardness, and opacity
6. Brush over the area you want to apply the correction you did in step 2. (remember..if you have the opacity set low, it will take multiple passes with the brush to build up to the amount of correction you want)
7. If by chance you applied too much correction, switch to the BLACK brush, and brush OFF some of the correction you over-did.
8. Flatten when done
9 Repeat the procedure for a different correction ( let's say you just did shadow removal, now you want to do saturation...)

That's it.


-Jeff
 
dendrobatid
Posts: 1645
Joined: Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:40 pm

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:07 am

I also use the Smart sharpen in CS, about 70% at 0.3 r at image size 1024 x X. I use the magic wand to deselect the sky and any other areas that I do not want to sharpen. Noise tends to show up in dark areas such as engine intakes so I deselect them too if they are very dark. The magic wand can be used pretty effectively by right clicking to add or subtract areas and the levels can be adjusted for the 'sensitivity' (for want of a better word). One other thing, by equalising just the sky, dust spots positively hit you and these can be removed on a duplicate layer.

Quoting Viv (Reply 1):
Others may disagree, but I feel that the incremental improvement of RAW over JPG is not worth the effort.

Viv
I disagree and the noise reduction in RAWshooter in particular is very subtly variable. I use it very little but it can sometimes save a slightly noisy picture. It is far more subtle than, for instance, Neat Image.

Are any two of us doing things the same way ? (LOL)
Mick Bajcar
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 3:37 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 11):
I've used it as well, but always on a mask layer, never on it's own. Something always gets sharpened that I don't want, then your stuck having to erase it. With a mask, I just brush the HPS on ONLY where I want, and ONLY at the intensity I want.

Jeff, the HP method is done on it's own layer, at least the method I use.

Quoting D L X (Reply 13):
Doesn't High Pass Sharpening give you halos out the wazoo?

Not in my experience.

Mike
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:11 am

Heartfelt thanks to Jeff for his detailed guide.

One question: How can I save or print it?
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:14 am

Quoting Viv (Reply 17):
One question: How can I save or print it?

Viv, just select (highlight) with mouse, copy and paste into Word (or similar) and print it  Smile And yes, great little guide there Jeff.

Mike
 
viv
Posts: 2953
Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 5:17 pm

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 4:17 am

Thank you, Mike. Will do so right away.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
JeffM
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:05 am

Quoting Mikephotos (Reply 16):
Jeff, the HP method is done on it's own layer, at least the method I use.

Yes, I know. But, it happens on the WHOLE layer. Why not try after running the HP, hiding the layer mask, and then just brushing on your HP sharpening onto only the areas you want in the amount you want. This method works for any correction you want, with the exception of rotating the image.  Wink Or do you prefer doing the whole image?

Quoting Viv (Reply 17):
Heartfelt thanks to Jeff for his detailed guide.

No problem, glad to help. I've been talking about it for so long, finally got around to describing the details.

And don't forget, you don't have to use the brush settings shown, set them any way you like, hard brush, soft brush, size, opacity, etc....
 
mikephotos
Posts: 2887
Joined: Wed Nov 01, 2000 12:52 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 20):
Yes, I know. But, it happens on the WHOLE layer. Why not try after running the HP, hiding the layer mask, and then just brushing on your HP sharpening onto only the areas you want in the amount you want. This method works for any correction you want, with the exception of rotating the image. Or do you prefer doing the whole image?

Only the edges (of objects in the photo, not the photo itself) are sharpened when I use the HPS method. Any large parts like sky and/or aircraft fuselages are not affected. It's just as easy to erase (on the HP layer) any small parts that seem to be jaggy, which is usually only 1 or 2 small parts, if at all. Your method is great but to me (for my purposes) I don't find myself needing to have that much control over areas to apply and/or not apply sharpening on every image. It would take longer IMO to paint areas that I want to apply the shaperning layer vs. just erasing the very few small parts that are jaggy.

The whole image HPS layer method works for me and is just fine for Anet uploads. However, when working on a nice high-quality print that I want perfect I will certainly give your method a try!

Mike
 
Cosmic
Posts: 331
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 8:35 am

RE: Selecting Just The Plane In Editing

Wed Apr 19, 2006 7:04 am

Jeff, I would also like to say thank you for explaining this technique with pictures and a summary. I look forward to trying it out, it sounds very useful. I am sure you've help solve any problems I was having carrying out the method.

Thanks again  Smile

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: zachary165 and 3 guests