JeffM
Topic Author
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Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 12:13 pm

Here is something to think about in light of the current crisis on bad manipulation....

I read here all the time people offering to "have a go" at someone else's images for what ever reason. I have even read in a photo's comments the photographer thanking someone else for processing the image. Obviously someone has manipulated (processed) someone else's image to the point of acceptance. Maybe they think they are God's gift to Photoshop or something, who knows..I think it is rediculous my self, but that is just my opinion.

So, the image is sent, the "Expert" gets the image from the poor slob that can't process it himself, and clones something out thinking he is doing such a wonderful job. Maybe something significant, maybe not, and the original photographer doesn't 'catch' the clone and uploads the new image and it get's accepted.

Then, lo and behold.....someone finds out and starts a thread like the current "Top of the day, Manipulated image thread". Some form of investigation goes on and it is determined the image has been wrongfully altered........ Uh oh......

Who is at fault? The photographer? Or the "fixer"?
 
Newark777
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 12:48 pm

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):

Who is at fault? The photographer? Or the "fixer"?

The photographer. When they are submitting their photo, they are taking responsibility for it and everything it contains. If said photog wants the processor of the photo held responsible, they should have that person's name put on the copyright bar alongside theirs. That is the risk you take letting someone else edit your photo.

I never let anyone touch my photos except for yours truly, and I would not have it any other way. No learning is done letting someone else edit your photos for you.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 1:43 pm

I also do all of my own post-processing, sometimes others as well but only if I'm showing them exactly what I'm doing.

btw Jeff that Velvia Mask you have is sweet  bigthumbsup 
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
INNflight
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 1:55 pm

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 1):
No learning is done letting someone else edit your photos for you.

Of course there is, if the photoshop-God who helps you tells you what he did to the photo.

Regarding the cloning issue, imo the 'fixer' takes the responsibility. If he's good, the unexperienced uploader won't spot it, therefore just uploads it thinking it's ok. The photoshop-God should know better.
Jet Visuals
 
Newark777
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 2:10 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 3):
Of course there is, if the photoshop-God who helps you tells you what he did to the photo.

There's a difference, though, between being told what is being done to your photo, and hands on performing of the editing.

Quoting INNflight (Reply 3):

Regarding the cloning issue, imo the 'fixer' takes the responsibility. If he's good, the unexperienced uploader won't spot it, therefore just uploads it thinking it's ok. The photoshop-God should know better.

Ignorance is no excuse, and people starting pointing fingers saying, "my friend edited it, it's not my fault," is only going to cause more problems. Putting your name on the photo and submitting it is saying it is your photo and you are responsible for what comes of it.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
INNflight
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 2:25 pm

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 4):
There's a difference, though, between being told what is being done to your photo, and hands on performing of the editing.

There's a learning experience by being told what is done to your photo, as long as you are not able to do it yourself because of lacking knowledge.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 4):
Ignorance is no excuse, and people starting pointing fingers saying, "my friend edited it, it's not my fault,"

We're not talking about ignorant dumbasses. It's about photographers who are too unexperienced to post-process photographs suiting Airliners.net's guidelines.

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 4):
is only going to cause more problems.

Airliners should feel lucky that you care that much about not getting the site 'problems by others' lately.  angel 

F.
Jet Visuals
 
Psych
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 3:39 pm

Some interesting comments above.

I am one of these people who offer to help out others through editing their shots. Believe it or not I do this because I find it very reinforcing to think that I can help out - others did it for me when I didn't know much about editing; I now am able to produce a decent edit (though am by no means a Photoshop God), so I am happy to help anyone who is struggling and brave enough to ask for help.

I think it can be hugely instructive to have someone else do an edit of your shot - you can then see what they come up with and hopefully get a full description of what they actually did to produce that result. Even better, you can follow the editing instructions and see if what you then produce looks exactly the same - if not, then that raises interesting questions about technique in itself. It is a perfect recipe for learning and development. You could remain in a silo and work it all out for yourself, if that's your style, or recognise some people know something you don't, and ask. Jeff's competence in the use of Layer Masks is a perfect example of this instructive process. Sometimes being told how to do something is enough - at others, being shown the result is more valuable as an integral part of that learning process.

When I edit someone else's shot I am 'holding their baby'. They have entrusted me with something that belongs to them. They have a right to know what I have done with it - preferably in detail. So if I clone something out/in and don't tell them then that is my responsibility. In the end what the owner does with the photograph is their responsibility, but if I have been complicit in some 'dodgy' manoeuvre and not told them I can hardly walk away innocently. Particularly if they are inexperienced they may not even realise.

Cheers.

Paul
 
viv
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 4:02 pm

When you put your name to a shot on A.net, that should mean you are 100% responsible for it, including the processing. Shots uploaded by a committee should not be allowed.

Learn about processing by practicing on non-Anet shots, with the help of other photographers, books, online tutorials, classes, whatever.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
9VSPO
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 4:04 pm

I don't even know how to use the clone tool!  Silly
 
willo
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 4:05 pm

Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable or get any satisfaction out of having my name against a picture, knowing that someone else had done some of the work.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 4:27 pm

I think Paul said pretty much all I was going to say though as usual he did so much more eloquently.

Viv,Willo and others that have a problem with this approach, I don't know of anyone that "outsources" their editing to others, most instances I see are one-offs and the photographer likely learns something and handle it better themselves next time.

The couple of times I have helped some one out, I have described what I did to them and they have had more success of their own later.

Cloning something out of anothers photo without their consent, is unforgiveable, not knowing the content of your own work so as to not notice is just as bad.

cheers

Chris
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
 
eadster
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 4:34 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 3):
Of course there is, if the photoshop-God who helps you tells you what he did to the photo.



Quoting Psych (Reply 6):
I think it can be hugely instructive to have someone else do an edit of your shot - you can then see what they come up with and hopefully get a full description of what they actually did to produce that result

Exactly - How I learn't from both of you as was the best help I'd had.
 
D L X
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 5:04 pm

Man, and we're still drinking the Haterade.

Quoting Viv (Reply 7):
Shots uploaded by a committee should not be allowed

Why not? You wouldn't allow a father son duo where the old man has photography skills out the wazoo, but doesn't know how to turn on a computer, let alone use CS2, to get his son the computer wiz to turn his photos into JPEGs? Viv, I normally agree with everything you say, but this sounds off. I mean, it's the digital era equivalent of taking your film to your basement darkroom vs. going to a photolab and having them make the prints. You wouldn't say that all film photographers should develop their own film, would you?
 
viv
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 5:09 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 12):
wouldn't say that all film photographers should develop their own film, would you?

Good point. I was more thinking of the newbie who knows or cares little about exposure - trusting in his expert friend to magically put everything right in Photoshop.
Nikon D700, Nikkor 80-400, Fuji X Pro 1, Fujinon 35 f/1.4, Fujinon 18 f/2
 
linco22
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 5:12 pm

So what if I wanted help. I'll take responsibility of my shots. If I want help on them i'll do that. If it means getting someone else to have a go at it for me then i'll do that. I hope Paul wont mind me saying he has helped me alot on photos. I have one in the db that he edited for me. I did the first attempt that was rejected and Paul reworked it for me.

Personally I think this is petty that people are now moaning about this. Getting someone to edit your shots is different from breaking rules like cloning

Regards
Colin  Smile
 
flyingzacko
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 5:21 pm

Quoting Psych (Reply 6):
Some interesting comments above.

Interesting indeed, puzzling too though on some level.

I am one of those "poor slobs", who at some point did not know, how to edit a shot in a manner, that it would later on be accepted here. I only have 37 shots online, but I still wanted to add to this here. I don't see what's wrong with people helping others out with their photo editing, and neither do I understand what's ridiculous about thanking them afterwards, be it via Email or the Comment of your photo on a.net. I've had Psych have a go at a couple of my photos, when I didn't know how to edit them, and whenever he edited them, he would later on send them back to me, attached to an Email, telling me the exact steps he took, so I could almost 100% reproduce the results he got. And that's how it is instructive, because when I come across the same problems again with a photo, I'll be able to use what he told me.

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):
So, the image is sent, the "Expert" gets the image from the poor slob that can't process it himself, and clones something out thinking he is doing such a wonderful job. Maybe something significant, maybe not, and the original photographer doesn't 'catch' the clone and uploads the new image and it get's accepted.

If I take a photo and send it to someone else to edit it, and he would, for whatever reason clone something out, besides dustspots, how in the world would I not notice?

Quoting Viv (Reply 7):
Shots uploaded by a committee should not be allowed.

And why exactly do you think that should be?
What's wrong about working together. It's not like there is people out there, who have others edit all there shots. It's usually just every now and then that they will have to consult another photographer to advice them, or help out with their editing skills.

Cheers,
Sebastian
Canon 40D + 24-70 f/2.8 L + 70-200 f/4 L + Speedlite 430EX
 
DLKAPA
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 5:32 pm

Quoting 9VSPO (Reply 8):
I don't even know how to use the clone tool!

By any chance do you see alot of "NOA_Dirty" rejections?  Wink
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
dc10tim
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 8:12 pm

In response to quite a bizarre question if I may say so Jeff... does it matter?

Even if a shot is rejected that has been edited by someone offering to lend a hand, the new uploader has gained an insight as to what editing techniques are required and hopefully put on the right path. People who never have rejections are few and far between so it's bound to happen from time to time when helping someone out.

If the experienced members of this forum were not to be so willing to help out newcomers, then we would effectively have a magic circle that is impenetrable.

The likes of Paul and others are a credit to this site and I hope that people continue to be so helpful to newcomers.

Regards,

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
brianw999
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 8:40 pm

Personally, and BECAUSE I'm new to digital photography, I edit all my own work and cannot think of a situation where I would let someone else process my pics and then upload it as mine. The only proviso to this would be where I needed help and someone else taught me by way of processing a pic for me, and explaining what and why something was done. I would not, however consider uploading such a pic BECAUSE IT WAS NOT ALL MY WORK !

That's my personal opinion but if someone does want another to process their work there is a simple solution. Include a rule on Anet where you must credit the processor for their work in the comments section of the upload. That way everyone knows that someone else helped, the person who helped gets the credit and, most importantly to me, the uploader who took the original pic is being up front about outside help.
One proviso here though. The original photographer must understand that they, as the uploader take full responsibility for any backlash that may occur.

This is considered simple good manners in my other field of aviation interest, i.e. aircraft design (particularly helicopters) for MS flight sim 9. If I use someone elses' work then that is credited in the readme file that accompanies the download. This extends to all aspects such as graphics, flight model, part design etc.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 8:55 pm

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):
Maybe they think they are God's gift to Photoshop or something, who knows..I think it is rediculous my self, but that is just my opinion.

Maybe they are just good with PS and are trying to help out a new photog?

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):
poor slob that can't process it himself

Love the way you generalize Jeff.  sarcastic 

Quoting Flyingzacko (Reply 15):
I am one of those "poor slobs", who at some point did not know, how to edit a shot in a manner, that it would later on be accepted here

Don't take it personally, Jeff just needs to characterize people in this manner to feed his ego. We were all there once, I used to have one of the top photogs here edit my first few shots till I learned PS.

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):
Who is at fault? The photographer? Or the "fixer"?

Ultimately it's the person uploading who is responsible, ignorant or not. You can't claim the famous George Constanza ignorance (When he had sex with the cleaning lady at work) when you upload. You are responsible.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
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jumbojim747
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 9:05 pm

Quoting StealthZ (Reply 10):
Viv,Willo and others that have a problem with this approach, I don't know of anyone that "outsources" their editing to others, most instances I see are one-offs and the photographer likely learns something and handle it better themselves next time.

Spot on Chris

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 17):
The likes of Paul and others are a credit to this site and I hope that people continue to be so helpful to newcomers.

Couldn't have said it better myself Tim.
I have had Paul and Chris help me out in the past and would openly say i would still be wondering how to use PS if it wasn't for Chris and Paul.
So its not like hey edit all my shots for me it is at times tricky situations where you need that extra bit of experience .
I don't see too much wrong with people helping out at times
THX guys
On a wing and a prayer
 
willo
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 10:10 pm

Quoting Willo (Reply 9):
Personally, I wouldn't feel comfortable or get any satisfaction out of having my name against a picture, knowing that someone else had done some of the work.



Quoting StealthZ (Reply 10):
Viv,Willo and others that have a problem with this approach,

I neither said I approve or disapprove of someone else editing a picture, it's just not something I do. However, if people feel it helps them, fine! I guess if I'd sought outside help I may have a few more in the database than I have at present. That said, I still prefer a picture to be the "scene" as I remember it, not someone elses interpretation of what I saw, no matter how well executed. That's just my view though  Smile
 
Newark777
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 11:24 pm

Quoting INNflight (Reply 5):

There's a learning experience by being told what is done to your photo, as long as you are not able to do it yourself because of lacking knowledge.

If you want to have other people edit your photos for you, that's fine by me, I really don't care. I was just saying that's not how I do things. However, if you do have someone else edit, you are ultimately responsible for the photo, no one else.

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
D L X
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Fri May 05, 2006 11:37 pm

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 18):
I would not, however consider uploading such a pic BECAUSE IT WAS NOT ALL MY WORK !

Okay, question: before digital, did you not upload any scans of film that you didn't develop? I never had a darkroom (and likely never will) and would not think twice about uploading a scan of a picture I shot and had someone else develop. It's the same thing... absent cloning.

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 18):
Include a rule on Anet where you must credit the processor for their work in the comments section of the upload.

Seriously, why? The system is fine the way it is. If the person that helped edit the shot wants to be credited, he or she will demand so in consideration for lending his help. However, if I edit someone's shot, I do it for my own practice, and do not need anyone to tell everyone that I did it. It's not my shot, and I don't see why I deserve any public credit.

Quoting JumboJim747 (Reply 20):
The likes of Paul and others are a credit to this site and I hope that people continue to be so helpful to newcomers.

Add Hongyin and Tim de Groot to that list. (There are probably others, but those two have helped me.)
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 1:54 am

Quoting Viv (Reply 7):
When you put your name to a shot on A.net, that should mean you are 100% responsible for it, including the processing. Shots uploaded by a committee should not be allowed.

Assistance processing photos isnt what I consider "Uploading by Committee".


This on the other hand...  

http://www.airliners.net/search/phot...0Robert%20Fall&distinct_entry=true

[Edited 2006-05-05 18:56:54]
 
INNflight
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 2:17 am

Quoting Newark777 (Reply 22):
If you want to have other people edit your photos for you

LoL Harry.... thank you, but I'm definitely capable of handling my photographs in PS. Might not be your style, but if you still need help, drop me a line. shhh 


F.  Wink
Jet Visuals
 
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Fiveholer
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 4:32 am

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):
Obviously someone has manipulated (processed) someone else's image to the point of acceptance. Maybe they think they are God's gift to Photoshop or something, who knows..I think it is rediculous my self, but that is just my opinion.

Jeff, jumping to conclusions here. A good friend of mine has me edit his shots quite a bit. Mostly for jaggies. He can't seem to smooth them out as much or as well as I can. Like you said, its your opinion. It's my opinion that I am helping out a friend that has asked for help. Nothing more. I don't intend this to be a snap back at you, just my input.

Danny
Bring back Bethune!
 
747 4-ever
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 5:04 am

Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 24):
This on the other hand...

I've explained the situation before.. RE: Daniel & Robert Fall Hit The 1000 Mark! (by 747 4-ever Mar 26 2006 in Aviation Photography)#ID225679
If you have any further comments or questions feel free to send an email or PM.
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 5:45 am

Quoting 747 4-ever (Reply 27):
I've explained the situation before..
RE: Daniel & Robert Fall Hit The 1000 Mark! (by 747 4-ever Mar 26 2006 in Aviation Photography)#ID225679
If you have any further comments or questions feel free to send an email or PM.

Thanks, still dont agree with it, either you pushed the button or did not. Simple really.
 
Newark777
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 6:18 am

Quoting INNflight (Reply 25):
LoL Harry.... thank you, but I'm definitely capable of handling my photographs in PS.

If you ever need help, I can direct you to some people to edit your photos for you, since I know how inexperienced you are.  Wink

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
ChrisH
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 6:31 am

Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 28):
Thanks, still dont agree with it, either you pushed the button or did not. Simple really.

Either Daniel or Robert pushed the button, if you want to find out who, drop them a line, simple really.

 Yeah sure
what seems to be the officer, problem?
 
maiznblu_757
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 6:31 am

Harry,

Grow up.  stirthepot 
 
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jumbojim747
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 6:40 am

This thread is deviating from the intended path that JeffM has intended for it.
I might be a bit slow here but i think Jeff was just pointing out the risk involved when letting others edit shots for you.
Cheers
On a wing and a prayer
 
JeffM
Topic Author
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 9:15 am

Quoting Alan (Reply 32):
I might be a bit slow here but i think Jeff was just pointing out the risk involved when letting others edit shots for you.

Exactly.

To me It's no different then when you were in school. You may not be great in math, sure you can have someone help you study, but you can't have a friend help out on the exam.  Wink
 
dc10tim
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 9:39 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 33):
To me It's no different then when you were in school. You may not be great in math, sure you can have someone help you study, but you can't have a friend help out on the exam.

Is it that clear cut though Jeff?

Do people who offer to edit shots on behalf of someone with little experience just edit the shot and say "here, this will get in"? Or do they say "here's what I've done, take it or leave it"?

From my own experience when I started uploading here, it is the latter. Of course the buck stops with the uploader, but I really don't have a problem with photographers helping others out in this way.

Regards,

Tim.
Obviously missing something....
 
mikephotos
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 10:33 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 33):
but you can't have a friend help out on the exam.

Now you tell me, oh great!

Mike
 
Newark777
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 10:52 am

Quoting Maiznblu_757 (Reply 31):

Chad,

Get a sense of humor.  Wink

Harry
Why grab a Heine when you can grab a Busch?
 
NathanT2778
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 1:42 pm

Let me add my 2 cents, I have not let anyone edit photos for me, I just take constructive critisiscm and put it to work and thats how I got my first photo on, I would never let anyone edit one of my photos for me and I would NEVER manipulate a photo either.
 
BigSkyBirds
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 2:00 pm

Quoting DC10Tim (Reply 34):
From my own experience when I started uploading here, it is the latter. Of course the buck stops with the uploader, but I really don't have a problem with photographers helping others out in this way.

I agree, its good to see more experienced photographers helping others and passing on their knowledge, as well as that benefit you end up making some good friends.

cheers

Kevin
 
nosedive
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting JeffM (Reply 33):
Exactly.

To me It's no different then when you were in school. You may not be great in math, sure you can have someone help you study, but you can't have a friend help out on the exam.

So I take it you're of the school of thought to kick them both out. Sure thats fine if there's an intent to cheat by both parties, but you're assuming that the photog knows about manipulation. What if he/she doesn't? He/she is not really an accomplise, so nothing should be done to him/her. Of course that's damn hard to prove...

What bugs, somewhat, me is when a photog recieves help and doesn't acknowledge it. You've been given "direct help" on a specific subject and have not given notification of that help... kinda flirts with plagiarism, IMO.
 
Morvious
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RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 4:31 pm

I helped a friend out when his PS didn't worked anymore, and I would do it again if someone asks if I could help him(Not that there is a big chance of that)

No one else has ever editted a photo I took (Atleast, what I have uploaded so far), but when I don't get a result I like, I search help to others, like many times here in this forum!

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):
So, the image is sent, the "Expert" gets the image from the poor slob that can't process it himself, and clones something out thinking he is doing such a wonderful job. Maybe something significant, maybe not, and the original photographer doesn't 'catch' the clone and uploads the new image and it get's accepted.

Then, lo and behold.....someone finds out and starts a thread like the current "Top of the day, Manipulated image thread". Some form of investigation goes on and it is determined the image has been wrongfully altered........ Uh oh......

Who is at fault? The photographer? Or the "fixer"?

Although I disagrea with you that it is fault to let someone edit the photos for you, I see your point with this one.

The photographer would be wrong in this case, because he is responsible for the upload.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 33):
Exactly.

To me It's no different then when you were in school. You may not be great in math, sure you can have someone help you study, but you can't have a friend help out on the exam.

You could also see it in a different way.

I am good in math, and I helped others with their homework & Study.
But if you not only doing the homework for them, but also explaining how you did it, and how you got to the answere, you could help them to get a good result with the exam.
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
brianw999
Posts: 307
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:15 am

RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 6:22 pm

Quoting D L X (Reply 23):
before digital, did you not upload any scans of film that you didn't develop?

Now that's a silly comment to make ! Actually I did have a darkroom. I worked in monochrome and could not afford to invest in colour processing. Colour processing was done by either Truprint or Bonusprint commercial development houses with no special instructions for processing. It was a simple "send it away with a cheque", and get back a batch of prints.
The person who handled my films only did enough to put them in a machine. The machine then processed the film, according to the ASA rating, at a predetermined setting. It wasn't "absent cloning", it was simply part of the procedure required to obtain a picture with which to work. These were scanned and adjusted as required....does the last bit sound familiar ? That's basically what we do with digital isn't it ? Take a picture, modify it as required and upload it. We just don't have to send away a film for processing any more.
 
JeffM
Topic Author
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sat May 06, 2006 11:35 pm

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 39):
So I take it you're of the school of thought to kick them both out.

Absolutely not.

Quoting Nosedive (Reply 39):
you're assuming that the photog knows about manipulation. What if he/she doesn't?

Did you actually read my first post?

Quoting JeffM (Thread starter):
and the original photographer doesn't 'catch' the clone and uploads the new image and it get's accepted.



Quoting Nosedive (Reply 39):
What bugs, somewhat, me is when a photog recieves help and doesn't acknowledge it.

That is just the way it is....I've had over 500 downloads of my action sets, and only a small percentage of emails acknowledging them.

Quoting Morvious (Reply 40):
I am good in math, and I helped others with their homework & Study.....you could help them to get a good result with the exam

As it should be, but you can't take the exam for them right?

Quoting BrianW999 (Reply 41):

I thought so too.

So I buy a race car, but can't drive well. I hire a driver, he wins. Did I win the race? It's my car right?

...or....would it be better to learn from the winning driver so I might be competitive myself?
 
Morvious
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:36 pm

RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sun May 07, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 42):
As it should be, but you can't take the exam for them right?

Nope, but without any help, they fail from the start.

With photoshop the same.

And Jeff, wans't it you that came up with a post lately how to load some actions like Masks?  Wink

Quoting JeffM (Reply 42):
So I buy a race car, but can't drive well. I hire a driver, he wins. Did I win the race? It's my car right?

...or....would it be better to learn from the winning driver so I might be competitive myself?

You won't learn anything from the winning driver if you don't even know how to shift gears.
Some people see PS for the first time, so what is wrong if they ask some help for editting the shots?

It is only wrong if they are not willing to learn from it.
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
brianw999
Posts: 307
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 3:15 am

RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sun May 07, 2006 12:44 am

Quoting Morvious (Reply 43):
It is only wrong if they are not willing to learn from it.

...and its also wrong if someone is willing to flame another for not knowing how to do something, rather than TEACH them.
 
JeffM
Topic Author
Posts: 7569
Joined: Sat May 07, 2005 3:32 am

RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sun May 07, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting Morvious (Reply 43):
And Jeff, wans't it you that came up with a post lately how to load some actions like Masks?

Yes. But I don't fix anyone's photo for them. Can't you see the difference?

Quoting Morvious (Reply 43):
You won't learn anything from the winning driver if you don't even know how to shift gears.

Then should you really have purchased that kind of car?

Quoting Morvious (Reply 43):
Some people see PS for the first time, so what is wrong if they ask some help for editting the shots?

Nothing at all wrong with asking for help, asking for someone to fix the photo for you I disagree with. Why spend $600 on a program and then have someone else do it for you? Rediculous.
 
nosedive
Posts: 2176
Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 2:18 pm

RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sun May 07, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting JeffM (Reply 42):
Did you actually read my first post?

I did, and I reposted pretty much the same question because it still isn't answered and was starting to get ignored. Perhaps a better phrasing was in order, but meh.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 42):
So I buy a race car, but can't drive well. I hire a driver, he wins. Did I win the race? It's my car right?

...or....would it be better to learn from the winning driver so I might be competitive myself?

Ok, I'll run with this. A) He/She (Danika or Legge will win a race this yr) wins the race and the trophy and drinks the milk B) you still get to relish in the fact it was a team effort. Yeah yeah, I used both the IRL and F1. Gotta love google.

Semantics aside of wanting to be a better driver (and thus photog), which needs its own thread, both racing the photog situation Jeff describes are a team effort. So if the parrellel sticks, then Johan should be like the Max Mosley, Bill France, Tony George, whoever now runs ChampCar, etc etc. In other words, the racing guys just know a team chated and the team will be punished. Yes, drivers may pass other drivers under yellow flag conditions and get driver penalties, but the team as a whole still suffers. Just as if a driver gets points in Imola, but his his car is underweight during the post race inspection, the team will miss the next two races...including Monaco. Nevermind the fact the driver, who in this sense is the photog who didn't know about the manipulation, "didn't know" about the weight issue with his car. He sits out the next two races.

Long story short, if no matter who fucks up in racing the team suffers. If you want to apply that to photog, fine.
 
Morvious
Posts: 637
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2005 8:36 pm

RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Sun May 07, 2006 3:36 am

Last try Jeff..

I see your point with this topic, but that is only valid for people who are to lazy to do their own work.

Maybe in your world and surroundings things are perfect, but I know people that have photoshop or paint shop ro and just can't do all the things with it.

Whats so bad of doing it for them, so they have a good result with the photo, if they just can't get the result they wanted, because they lack skills for it.
If they are willing to continue learning, I am willing to do the edit for them.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 45):
Quoting Morvious (Reply 43):
And Jeff, wans't it you that came up with a post lately how to load some actions like Masks?

Yes. But I don't fix anyone's photo for them. Can't you see the difference?

Depends how you look to it.

Quoting JeffM (Reply 45):
Why spend $600 on a program and then have someone else do it for you? Rediculous.

So, doing someone else his work for creating masks for them isn't rediculous to?
They just spend 600$ on a program, with the same options you have like creating masks, but that didn't stopped you for creating them and putting them online for someone to download. (I am still pleased for that post btw, don't get me wrong)

And where are we talking about. If the guy knows his camera well, the only thing left to do is leveling, cropping, sharpening and resizing, maybe a little level ajustment or color balance but thats it. Big grin
have a good day, Stefan van Hierden
 
frippe
Posts: 185
Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:24 pm

RE: Fixing Someone's Image, And Manipulation...

Thu May 18, 2006 4:21 pm

Hello again,

I consider myself a beginner at Airliners.net but still want to add two comments:

1. I think this thread is very important in many ways, not least the question of who is responsible for any kind of edits made to a photo.

2. I wholly support the more friendly line of action here, since for me this whole thing must always remain a hobby, though a challenging one.

When I started last summer it took me quite a long time to have ONE photo accepted. And when quality demands went higher and higher I almost gave up.

Then I got a lot of help from many of you wonderful members out there, especially Paul Markman. But if he had not offered to do some edits for me AND explain his work flow I am quite sure I had given up the idea of continuing here.

And in some very small way Airliners as a database is a bit less good with everyone who leaves, is it not?

So thanks again to all of you,
Frippe
... who nowadays always is trying to do his own edits - but with very helpful advice from Paul Markman. I always try to remember to give him due credit in the remarks field, and hope that this will not be taken as a secret way of boosting my viewing figures - if so we will have another debate, perhaps?

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